Re-balancing of Favour Items

A discussion on the current items.

By on November 17, 2009 9:00:59 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

ZehDon

Join Date 04/2009
+115

As mentioned by Frogboy, the communities thoughts on Favour items have been heard; we don't want new items, we want the current items balanced out; each of them made equally powerful and their associated cost adjusted. I, personally, don't think cost should be discussed too much, as if all items are balanced out then the cost for each should be the same.

Anyway, I'd like to hear what people think of the current items and how they would like to seem them altered. I've posted a few of my own thoughts below to get the ball rolling.

Favour Items

Bejewelled Goggles
Current:
Effect: +12 Vision Radius, Can detect normally invisible objects.

Proposed:
Effect: Removes Fog of War, Can view Enemy's Mana pool, Can detect normally invisible objects.

Reasoning:
The Goggles were clearly designed to grant further situational awareness. In their current form, their next to useless. In their amended form, they provide complete awareness.

Charm of Life
Current:
Effect: +400 Health, +5 Health Per Second, Death Penalty Time Reduced by 10%
Proposed:
Effect: +400 Health, +5 Health Per Second, Death Penalty Time for killed opponents increased by 25%

Reasoning:
The Charm acts as like an el-cheapo version of BotF, meaning once BotF is available this charm is useless. In it's amended form, it would provide players who are focusing on Demigod kills, such as Snipe Regulus, a method for increasing the time their opponents are off the field.

Brilliant Bauble
Current:
Effect: Increases experience gained by 10%
Proposed:
Effect: Increases experience gained by 25%, Decreases flag capture time by 50%

Reasoning:
The experience gain and decreased flag capture time compliment a player who focuses on capturing flags during the course of a match to counter-act the lack of experience gained from killing creeps/demigods while doing so.

Magical Coin Pouch
Current:
Effect: Decreases cost of items by 10%
Proposed:
Effect: Decreases cost of items by 20%, Increases gold reward for killing troops and Demigods by 20%

Reasoning:
This provides an avenue for a player to increase the availability of more expensive items, or to buy Citadel Upgrades faster, providing they are able to hold their lane or defeat their opponents.

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November 17, 2009 10:52:32 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

This is EXACTLY the kind of thing that the community needs to do.

I've looked at the LUA and there is definitely a possibility for this stuff to happen. Since you've already started, I'll give another item a go.

Symbol of Purity

Current: Instant Cast Purge all negative effects can not be used when stunned or frozen. + 250 health permanent. 45 second cooldown.

Proprosed: 1 second cast, purge all negative effects, can not be used when stunned or frozen. Heals 20% health on cast. 45 second cooldown.

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November 17, 2009 11:21:52 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Great suggestions ZehDon! I really hope we can get Favor Items properly balanced. Anything is possible since they listened to our feedback and took out the crazy high-end Favor Items.

 

 

Doesn't Symbol of Purity have a 30-second cooldown? I think that should be changed to 20 seconds.

 

Proprosed: Instant cast, purge all negative effects, can not be used when stunned or frozen. 20 second cooldown. +400 Health

 

What should happen to Essence of Magic? Maybe have +500 mana and have it last for 5 seconds.

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November 17, 2009 11:57:55 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

These are actually good ideas. The goal should be to come up with modifications compelling enough for GPG to adapt. Here's an example from me.

Diamond Pendant

+250 Mana

-10% cooldown

Idea:

New Diamond Pendant

-250 Mana

Reset all cooldowns. 45 second cooldown.

Going all the way with cooldown reduction, but it causes you to have a reduced mana cap.

 

 

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November 18, 2009 3:39:31 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

propsed ideas.


Symbol of purity
Use
Removes all negative effects and heals you for 450 health.
Cooldown: 25 secs

Staff of the Warmage
Passive
+700 mana
+15 attack
10% chance on hit to gain 100 health and mana.

Saam-els Cloak
Passive
+10% movement speed
Your movement speed cannot be reduced more than 15%.


Essence of magic
As it is now...but reduce the cooldown to 30 secs.


Totem of War
Passive
+25 attack
+5% attack speed
Use
You minions gain 15% attack speed for 10 secs.
Cooldown: 35 secs

Tome of Endurance
Passive
+400 health
+5 health regen

+5 health regen to minions
+150 armor to minions

 

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November 18, 2009 3:40:08 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

and zehdon. i rlly like what u have proposed also.

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November 18, 2009 7:43:07 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Another thought is where should we be aiming the balance line? I, personally, feel that BotF and BotS are about the right level for these kinds of items as, while they provide great advantages, they doesn't make one invincible and at the same time allows a player to augment their build enough that it opens a few new doors in terms of play styles.

To keep things moving, here are a few more ideas:

Favour Items

Dark Crimson Vial

Current:
2.0 Sec Cast time, 45 Second Cooldown
Effect: Heals 33% of your total HP when used.

Proposed:
Instant Cast, 120 Second Cooldown
Effect: Heals 25% of your total HP when used.


Reasoning:
The Crimson Vial is a decent item, however the benefit of never having to purchase healing potions isn't attractive enough. In it's amended form, it provides an instant use 25% heal which - being uninteruptable - is a massive advantage in any fight. To offset this, it's cooldown is heavily extended and total percent healed decreased.

Amulet of Teleportation
Current:
3.0 Sec Cast time, 45 Second Cooldown
Effect: Teleport you and your army to the targeted friendly structure.

Proposed:
1.0 Sec Cast time, 30 Second Cooldown
Effect: Teleport you and your army to the targeted friendly structure.


Reasoning:
This is simply not worth giving up your favour slot for. In it's amended form, the Amulet's cooldown matches the Teleport Scroll, however it casts faster than the scroll, making escaping from battle significantly easier, while still being interuptable - making this now worth giving up your favour slot for.

Heaven's Wrath

Current:
Instant Cast, 45 Sec Cooldown
Effect:
Fire a beam of searing light at the targeted location, dealing 250 damage and throwing smaller units into the air.

Proposed:
Instant Cast, 45 Sec Cooldown
Effect:
Fire a beam of searing light at the targeted, visible location dealing 250 damage and throwing smaller units into the air.


Reasoning:
Basically a weak version of Snipe that is unrestricted by LoS, HW is a little bit above the balance line in it's current form. Limiting it to the visible area ensures that whole creeps waves aren't being wiped out at the start of the game, while also ensuring that it's still useful as a finishing/AoE tool.

Poisoned Dagger
Current:
Effect: +5% Attack Speed, 20% chance on hit to reduce Movement Speed by 25% for 8 seconds.

Proposed:
Effect: +5% Attack Speed, 20% chance on hit to reduce Movement and Attack Speed by 30% for 10 Seconds.


Reasoning:
Frankly, 20% chance is low in a game like Demigod, and 25% reduction in movement speed for 8 seconds simply isn't enough of a decrease to warrant it. Adding an Attack Speed decrease and increasing the debuff percentage and duration balances out the 20% chance and makes the Dagger attractive.
Alternatively, leaving the Debuff alone but buffing the passive Attack Speed increase to 10% would be acceptable, as while it indirectly increases the number of times the debuff will proc over a given a match, it increases the DPS output of the Demigod as well, making the Dagger viable to any AA focused Demigod. It would perfectly compliment an Ooze build UB, for example.

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November 18, 2009 8:00:02 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting ZehDon,
Another thought is where should we be aiming the balance line? I, personally, feel that BotF and BotS are about the right level for these kinds of items as, while they provide great advantages, they doesn't make one invincible and at the same time allows a player to augment their build enough that it opens a few new doors in terms of play styles.

To keep things moving, here are a few more ideas:

Favour Items

Dark Crimson Vial
Current:
2.0 Sec Cast time, 45 Second Cooldown
Effect: Heals 33% of your total HP when used.
Proposed:
Instant Cast, 120 Second Cooldown
Effect: Heals 25% of your total HP when used.

Reasoning:
The Crimson Vial is a decent item, however the benefit of never having to purchase healing potions isn't attractive enough. In it's amended form, it provides an instant use 25% heal which - being uninteruptable - is a massive advantage in any fight. To offset this, it's cooldown is heavily extended and total percent healed decreased.

Amulet of Teleportation
Current:
3.0 Sec Cast time, 45 Second Cooldown
Effect: Teleport you and your army to the targeted friendly structure.
Proposed:
1.0 Sec Cast time, 30 Second Cooldown
Effect: Teleport you and your army to the targeted friendly structure.

Reasoning:
This is simply not worth giving up your favour slot for. In it's amended form, the Amulet's cooldown matches the Teleport Scroll, however it casts faster than the scroll, making escaping from battle significantly easier, while still being interuptable - making this now worth giving up your favour slot for.

Heaven's Wrath
Current:
Instant Cast, 45 Sec Cooldown
Effect:
Fire a beam of searing light at the targeted location, dealing 250 damage and throwing smaller units into the air.
Proposed:
Instant Cast, 45 Sec Cooldown
Effect:
Fire a beam of searing light at the targeted, visible location dealing 250 damage and throwing smaller units into the air.

Reasoning:
Basically a weak version of Snipe that is unrestricted by LoS, HW is a little bit above the balance line in it's current form. Limiting it to the visible area ensures that whole creeps waves aren't being wiped out at the start of the game, while also ensuring that it's still useful as a finishing/AoE tool.

Poisoned Dagger
Current:
Effect: +5% Attack Speed, 20% chance on hit to reduce Movement Speed by 25% for 8 seconds.
Proposed:
Effect: +5% Attack Speed, 20% chance on hit to reduce Movement and Attack Speed by 30% for 10 Seconds.

Reasoning:
Frankly, 20% chance is low in a game like Demigod, and 25% reduction in movement speed for 8 seconds simply isn't enough of a decrease to warrant it. Adding an Attack Speed decrease and increasing the debuff percentage and duration balances out the 20% chance and makes the Dagger attractive.
Alternatively, leaving the Debuff alone but buffing the passive Attack Speed increase to 10% would be acceptable, as while it indirectly increases the number of times the debuff will proc over a given a match, it increases the DPS output of the Demigod as well, making the Dagger viable to any AA focused Demigod. It would perfectly compliment an Ooze build UB, for example.

All these Items are really good already, they don't need any buff, except for the crimson vial, but that will get a reduced cast time already which will make it pretty good.

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November 18, 2009 8:22:38 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

schobbo is almost completely right.

the amulet of tp could use a lower cooldown but it really shouldnt have a faster cast time.

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November 18, 2009 8:24:14 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Poisoned Dagger
Current:
Effect: +5% Attack Speed, 20% chance on hit to reduce Movement Speed by 25% for 8 seconds.
Proposed:
Effect: +5% Attack Speed, 20% chance on hit to reduce Movement and Attack Speed by 30% for 10 Seconds.

i strongly disagree with this one. Everyone that ive seen use this favor item has had a 95% success rate at killing an opponent coz of this snare effect. with what u have suggested there, it makes killing 100% success rate now lol.

and 20% chance is actually quite a lot btw.

but if u rlly want it tweaked to make chances of this effect occuring more often, ill suggest this:

+5% attack speed, 25% (1 in 4 hits is a high chance now) chance on hit to reduce movement and attack speed by 25% for 6 seconds. (by the time the old debuff wears off a new one will soon be applied).

also, amulet of teleportation...

should be 2 secs cast with 30 sec cooldown (it should still be able to be interrupted). and i think a +5% passive movement speed would be nice.

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November 18, 2009 9:46:35 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I agree with everything ZehDon suggested except these 2:


Heaven's Wrath
Current:
Instant Cast, 45 Sec Cooldown
Effect:
Fire a beam of searing light at the targeted location, dealing 250 damage and throwing smaller units into the air.
Proposed:
Instant Cast, 45 Sec Cooldown
Effect:
Fire a beam of searing light at the targeted, visible location dealing 250 damage and throwing smaller units into the air.

Reasoning:
Basically a weak version of Snipe that is unrestricted by LoS, HW is a little bit above the balance line in it's current form. Limiting it to the visible area ensures that whole creeps waves aren't being wiped out at the start of the game, while also ensuring that it's still useful as a finishing/AoE tool.


Poisoned Dagger
Current:
Effect: +5% Attack Speed, 20% chance on hit to reduce Movement Speed by 25% for 8 seconds.
Proposed:
Effect: +5% Attack Speed, 20% chance on hit to reduce Movement and Attack Speed by 30% for 10 Seconds.

Your suggestion for HW renders this favor item weak, and almost nobody would use it. Right now it is only effective for regulus to get some early kills. But this would make it somewhat useless.

About poisoned dagger, it would make it a little OP, if it would lower the enemies attack speed. Just a 30% reduction in movement speed is perfect. No need for attack speed debuff.

Every other ideas are really good.

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November 18, 2009 9:49:04 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Zehdon, Dark Crimson Vial's casting time is going to 1 second in the new patch. You don't need to nerf it further =P

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November 18, 2009 11:35:25 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I feel need to also say that poison dagger would be too OP with your suggestion. It is already practically always active on a target you're attacking.  20% is every fifth hit, and effect last 8 sec!  And You do hit 5 times in 8 sec!  At least with UB which is the only dg i'm using that favor with. Plus, if you add the attack speed reduction it would make your enemy totally useless. I mean, yours 30% att sp red + 40% from Ooze - you're gonna be untouchable by enemy's aa.  Also, that -25% mov speed effect is already too good, you make your target totally catchable by your teammates, so it really doesnt need buff to -30%.

And i wouldn't increase its att speed bonus neither, +5% is fine. But, i would like to see much more items that increase your att speed. So far we have only:

- gladiator gloves(only +5%, and pays off only for generals using minions)

- doomspite grips (only +10% for most expensive gloves!) (...& that's just 2 gloves out of 7 which increase att speed!!)

- assassins footguards(again only +5%, 1750 gold, it doesnt pays off, even for a dodge build) If it's +10%, or +extra 5% move speed.... i wish...

- parasite egg (+10%)

And that's it!!  Without the artifact items ofc. That is lame. And artifacts (the cheapest ones - the only ones you can really realistically get!) are:

-  mage slayer & orb of veilded storm (8000 gold, +25% - which is actually big!; a big step out of nothing; there is a huge gap between (almost useless) cheaper att speed items and this ones) - it should be fixed asap!

- & finaly: cloak of flames (10000 gold, +30%)

Others are really hard to get; Ashkandor(18000)- 'everybody is saving for' - is still +25%, the same as mage slayer.

So, this is just one of the item's flaws that should be quickly addressed. Early game you really can't make fast attacking build, and late game everybody takes mage slayer so you are all the same.  > Please, fix this!!

 

back to topic: your first ideas are good, but i agree with Schobbo & others that the second ones are bit exaggerating.

 

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November 18, 2009 6:32:44 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Others are really hard to get; Ashkandor(18000)- 'everybody is saving for' - is still +25%, the same as mage slayer.

ur forgetting about the 10% chance of 4x critical which is pretty massive. AND its other stats.

hoever it does seem a lil high the cost (18k atm), shoudl be more like 17k.

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November 18, 2009 6:44:24 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

ur forgetting about the 10% chance of 4x critical which is pretty massive. AND its other stats.

hoever it does seem a lil high the cost (18k atm), shoudl be more like 17k.

No because it needs to be a little more expensive than Bulwark of the Ages, otherwise nobody would buy Bulwark.

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November 18, 2009 7:19:52 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I've updated my second post to remove the items people agreed didn't require any alterations. I find it interesting that Poisoned Dagger is considered fairly decent, in the cases where I've used it, it seemed fairly under-powered. Perhaps I was simply 'doing it wrong'?

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November 18, 2009 10:42:48 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Dagger is fairly weak for ranged but VERY powerful for UB, possibly one of his top 4 choices of items as dagger + claws = death

Umm there is now like three of these threads floating round now. I have investigated the LUA files and have worked out most of the mechanics for creating/changing items. I think that it would be much easier for GPG and stardock if we could mod these into the game for them, and they can change/balance them as they see fit (if needed) if they ever decide to incoporate these into an offical version of the game.

Can we pick a single one of these threads to focus this discussion in as this will make it much easier for GPG, stardock and myself (and or others who wish to contribute) to follow - mod or change items

New favour items as per community (gkrits thread) - http://forums.demigodthegame.com/362060 (not balances of old items but ideas on new items)

My similiar version of this thread - http://forums.demigodthegame.com/368975 (note changes i have made are not so much for balance as for ppl to assess the incoportation of new mechanics into favour items)

Anyway just thought i would point this out as i am having trouble trying to decide which of the items need the most attention why and what choices ppl would like as favour items to give the game more variety.

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November 18, 2009 11:06:14 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I saw the other threads, however they're more about new items or new mechanics for items rather than the mere balancing of our current items, which is why I created this one - to deal specifically with balance changes to already existing items.

I think the idea of us modding new items into the game first is a bad idea personally; I rarely if ever play with that kind of fan made content simply because it almost always tends to be imbalanced or breaks down what the game was intended to be. But, that is my personal opinion.

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November 18, 2009 11:24:50 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Exx, would you be able to mod "chance effect items" so that ranged character have the same chance of benefiting from one of these items as a melee character does?

ranged characters are squishy as it is so i dont see y ranged characters should be nerfed in regards to chance items.

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November 18, 2009 11:32:24 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Exx, would you be able to mod "chance effect items" so that ranged character have the same chance of benefiting from one of these items as a melee character does?

ranged characters are squishy as it is so i dont see y ranged characters should be nerfed in regards to chance items.
[/quote]

yes thats very easy to do they have two different proc chances ie.

the code would be

poisoned dagger:

Onweaponproc = 20

Onrangedweaponproc = 13 --> 20

very simple change.

 

I saw the other threads, however they're more about new items or new mechanics for items rather than the mere balancing of our current items, which is why I created this one - to deal specifically with balance changes to already existing items.



I think the idea of us modding new items into the game first is a bad idea personally; I rarely if ever play with that kind of fan made content simply because it almost always tends to be imbalanced or breaks down what the game was intended to be. But, that is my personal opinion.
[quote who="gkrit" reply="18" id="2447931"]

I understand that zehdon (and i wasnt trying to derail your thread ) and i myself rarely play user created content for the same reason, however, if we can get the community to come up with a consensus about what we want then i think that we will be waiting for a much shorter period than if we simply wait for gpg to do it. We can submit our changed code here and they can play with the balancing (if it has not already been optimised - as currently there are lots of oppinions flying around which i think will allow balancing to be much simplifed) as required.

 

 

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November 19, 2009 12:27:23 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

oh ok kool ... i think it would be better if melee and ranged had the same chance rate.

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November 21, 2009 2:57:56 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I got the Amulet of Teleportation idea working with a Mod. But with a 1.5 sec cast instead, because when i tested it 1 sec seemed too OP imo.

Here it is:  http://forums.demigodthegame.com/369708

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