House Rules for Experienced Players

By on July 29, 2009 7:44:04 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Ke5trel

Join Date 02/2008
+118

I ran into a situation the other day where the group I was playing with joined a game of premade experts and a couple on my team asked that the opponent Sedna not use the 30% High Priest bug, since we were going to play without a Sedna of our own.  The other team didn't agree to this and it was their host, so everyone on my side left the lobby. 

In custom games it is host's game, his rules, no worries, but it would be cool if we could reach a common ground in pub games when it comes to glitches and broken mechanics.   

What I'd like to do if it's possible is put together a set of standards which exclude the easily identifiable exploits.  You can put it in the title of the game or someone joining a game could ask "House Rules apply?" and if the answer is yes then he knows that his opponents won't be using the following:

Disallowed per House Rules 7/29/09

1.  Drop and re-equip hp and mana buff items for the bonus

2.  Sedna Healing Wind + Level 3 idol Priests/High Priests

3.  Horn of Battle

4.  Minions inside Enemy Citadel Exploit


The flip side is that there are some things which *might* be imba or cheezy but aren't actually broken.  These things will not be excluded from House Rules because the counters are broader:

Allowed per House Rules 7/29/09

1.  Duplicate DGs on the same team

2.  Backdoor flaglocking on Crucible

3.  Minion Blitzing

4.  Item feeding


These rules are absolutely up for debate, addition, and revision, but there are a few things I'd like you to consider before this turns into a "YES! NO!!  You Dummy!!" thread:

- it is possible to beat a team which is using most or all of the disallowed mechanics, but it becomes very difficult to do so if you are not at least as good as they are and playing very specific Demigods and builds.  The rules are designed to open up playstyles and teambuilds, not undercut the people who know how to play.  Conversely, it's important that we don't make rules about things that work as intended but need tweaks to improve balance - only those mechanics which can be widely acknowledged are broken should be excluded from play

- creating arbitrary rules of play is less desirable than having a perfect game or having the devs remove the loopholes.  Hopefully most of the issues will be resolved in 1.2, but until then there are enough mature and experienced players to make something like this work.  Any attempts to turn this into a l33t vs scrub conversation will be missing the point. 

- No one is saying you have to play by these rules unless they are specifically referenced in the game title or by the host.  But if you join a game with "HR" or "House Rules" in the title or the host calls it in lobby before the game then you have a list of things you know are allowed or not, and it doesn't all have to be spelled out every time. 

- Noobs and randoms probably don't even read these forums, so this list is for those of us who know how to play and want to play others who also know how to play.  I'm not going to call House Rules in a random game and get pissed when LittleNewbie29 doesn't know what that means and you shouldn't either.

KK, if you guys have objections or additions bring them in

 

Thanks for reading,

Kestrel

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July 29, 2009 8:42:55 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Great idea, but a bit of a tricky issue with the HoB - it is a really good favour item but I guess that sploit does kinda break it. Be interesting to see if this catches on, I would like it to...

+1

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July 29, 2009 8:44:56 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Adding rage quitting and host disconnect bug to the list would be nice since experienced players shouldnt do either.

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July 29, 2009 9:31:46 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I don't like this idea. Individual hosts can create their own rules, but this seems like a project bent on creating scrubby social taboos based on the arbitrary preferences of a few people. If you start down this path, where will it lead? Almost any tactic that happens to annoy the right player could be added to the list of house rules and be banned. 

Default rules = The rules. 

2.  Sedna Healing Wind + Level 3 idol Priests/High Priests

This was the one that you brought up to preface your main suggestion, so this is the one I will address: This. Is. Not. An. Exploit. Sedna priests cost 2100 and heal for 30%. Thats the way the game is balanced right now. When and if that is changed, it will not be a bug fix, it will be a nerf. This is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about just now. Some tactic annoys the right players and all of a sudden they think they have some sort of moral high ground for banning it, instead of just accepting it as part of the game, and realizing that they have equal access to it. 

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July 29, 2009 9:42:18 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

What about:

  • Backdoor Flaglocking on Cataract
  • Using base HP Crystal exploid on Exile
  • Attacking Towers using Last Stand with Oak
  • Using Perma-Mist Build with Erebus

if i think of any more i'll post them up

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July 29, 2009 9:49:33 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

How can the fact that the level 3 priests can heal better than level 4 priests if the exact same buff is applied to each of them not be a bug?

http://demigod.wikia.com/wiki/Priest_Healing

I don't know about a HP Crystal exploit on Exile.  All the things you mentioned sound pretty legit to me, Scot. 

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July 29, 2009 9:56:28 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Priest Healing with Healing Wind 2:

Monk: 15%

Cleric: 17%

High Priest: 30%

Bishop: 22%

Seems rather obvious that someone typed a 3 instead of a 2 into the code. I personally don't have a problem with it, but it's obviously unintended, and therefore a bug. It would be a nerf if it was intended at the game's release, but later decided to be overpowered and toned down.

I don't know about a HP Crystal exploit on Exile.

On Exile you can be in the lane next to your base and still be healed by the health crystal apparently.

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July 29, 2009 10:07:36 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums
Oh yes I've seen that before, thanks.
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July 29, 2009 10:08:33 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

This was the one that you brought up to preface your main suggestion, so this is the one I will address: This. Is. Not. An. Exploit. Sedna priests cost 2100 and heal for 30%. Thats the way the game is balanced right now. When and if that is changed, it will not be a bug fix, it will be a nerf.
It's a bug. Healing Wind is supposed to increase their healing by 50%, it does on all the other ranks, rank 3 is just bugged.

That being said I think that you guys (other than soffacet) have gotta realize competitive players will always play the game as hard as they can and will abuse any shortcomings in the game's code that they can find. Oversights, outright bugs, etc. and it's on the devs' shoulders to address it, not the players.

While the current lobby/custom game system might (I'm skeptical) allow this kind of ruleset to be practical, when (if) automatching hits it's going to go out the window.

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July 29, 2009 10:12:49 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Yeah, as people have been saying, there are still a lot of outright bugs.  The only thing on the list as of right now that probably isnt a bug is the HoB stuff.  But really HoB does need to be nerfed so people will probably find it much more enjoyable to play games against good players if that item isnt abused.

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July 29, 2009 10:16:49 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Krazikarl,
Yeah, as people have been saying, there are still a lot of outright bugs.  The only thing on the list as of right now that probably isnt a bug is the HoB stuff.  But really HoB does need to be nerfed so people will probably find it much more enjoyable to play games against good players if that item isnt abused.
I hear HoB actually is bugged, supposedly its effect occurs on all units at creation in addition to its on-use activation, so units like nightwalkers might be easier to tackle if they weren't effectively invulnerable damage sponges for 10 seconds after creation.

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July 29, 2009 10:24:14 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Thats true, but the main reason for HoB hate seems to be the unlimited range, not that issue.  I think that the unlimited range is intended, but it causes the streaming minion problem.

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July 29, 2009 10:42:36 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Scaled Helm is cheaper and more effective than Plate Visor. There is no logical reason this should be the case. Yet no one complains that buying Scaled Helm is bugged, or is an exploit. Ergo, neither are High Priests. When they are changed, it will be a nerf. Probably a deserved one, as well. But it is important to distinguish here. 

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July 29, 2009 10:54:54 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting SoFFacet,
Scaled Helm is cheaper and more effective than Plate Visor. There is no logical reason this should be the case. Yet no one complains that buying Scaled Helm is bugged, or is an exploit. Ergo, neither are High Priests. When they are changed, it will be a nerf. Probably a deserved one, as well. But it is important to distinguish here. 
First off that's not true. On Leviathan the plate visor gives more mana per second than the scaled helm until you build up enough % mana for the scaled helm to outpace the visor. If you were really confident about holding that MPS flag on exile you could say the same thing for that map too. Now granted its niche is probably smaller than intended, but there's no way to be absolutely certain about it because if it's underpowered it's not by much.

When you look at priests it's pretty obvious that it's a bug. Priest reinforcements, monk minions, priest minions, and bishop minions all increase by 50%, but high priests jump up by 230%. 50, 50 50, 230, 50, clearly something is amiss. It won't be a nerf, it'll be a bug fix and it's an absurd comparison in the first place not only because of the obviousness (come on man, it's over quadruple the intended effect) of the bug but because of the minimal impact the perceived balance disparity between the plate visor and scaled helm.

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July 29, 2009 11:10:48 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Right now Sedna priests cost 2100 and heal 30%. Using these priests is completely legitimate. When High Priests are changed, Sedna priests will cost 2700 and heal 22%. Using those priests will also be completely legitimate. This is pretty much the definition of a nerf. 

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July 29, 2009 11:34:48 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

If you want to be technical, yeah it's a nerf.  But as opposed to most nerfs, where devs code something, release it to the wild, then deem something is OP based on observations and feedback and so choose to reduce it's effectiveness, this nerf is pretty clearly the result of a mistake the devs made during coding.  Hence it's more like a fix.

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July 29, 2009 11:42:25 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I'm always confused by the fact that if people can point out the exact line in the Lua script where the susposed bug is that it hasn't been fixed by the developement team in any of the patches. Espically since one of the advantages of using StarDock was susposed to be the ability to provide frequent patches.

 

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July 29, 2009 11:44:44 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Disallowed per House Rules 7/29/09

1. Drop and re-equip hp and mana buff items for the bonus

2. Sedna Healing Wind + Level 3 idol Priests/High Priests

3. Horn of Battle

4. Minions inside Enemy Citadel Exploit

The flip side is that there are some things which *might* be imba or cheezy but aren't actually broken. These things will not be excluded from House Rules because the counters are broader:

Allowed per House Rules 7/29/09

1. Duplicate DGs on the same team

2. Backdoor flaglocking on Crucible

3. Minion Blitzing

4. Item feeding

 

 

ok here we go 

Disallowed per House Rules

1. not really a problem if u r near them cause hey u might get a free item.

2. ok so its a exploit if you choose to play a game with out doing the exploit yourself its your own fault for losing to it.

3. its being fixed but its not broken its just a little over powered.

4. ok even though i use minions i agreee its cheap and i don't personally do it this needs to be fixed.

Allowed per House Rules

1. lol ok if a team wants to have double demigods more power too them. demigod is a diverse game meaning the mroe diverse the abilities on your team the better you are when you decrease that pool of avaliable abilities by using two of the same demigod it makes it that much harder for you to win.

2. backdoor flagging doesn't always help sure it is useful but it doesn't need to be banned fro being used. You see someone beign erabus so he can bat swarm u be erabus too wow problem solved. (on a personal note i detest people who play 2v2's and 1v1's this is called stat whoring)

3. come on really its a legit strat. when you start to want to ban legit ways to play a game thats just wrong.

4. does it really matter who the items go to. the money will be spent either way its just a great tactic sometimes. Then again if u have one powerful player and everyone else is weak its a bonus for you.

there we go i'm all done now. May the flame of a flame commence and the first i predict will be obscenitor.

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July 30, 2009 12:07:44 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Right now Sedna priests cost 2100 and heal 30%. Using these priests is completely legitimate. When High Priests are changed, Sedna priests will cost 2700 and heal 22%. Using those priests will also be completely legitimate. This is pretty much the definition of a nerf. [/quote]No dude.  It increases the healing capacity of everything but rank 3 priests by 50%. It has nearly quintuple the effect of that on rank 3.
I'm not saying using them isn't legitimate. In fact I think making house rules is futile and that anyone who really think players will abide by them is new to competitive gaming and has a hard lesson in store. I learned my lesson in warcraft 3 back with forest walking ghouls. You probably won't get the reference, but it was a bug and when it was fixed it was not a nerf, it was a fix, in spite of the fact that tillerman won the beta tournament with it.

Any oversight which is corrected should be considered a nerf by your logic. If magnificent presence rank 2 decreased cooldowns by 230% of the desired effect but rank 1 and 3 functioned as intended, or if rank 3 of unit armor and weapon upgrades had the same oversight everyone would use them, but that wouldn't mean fixing them would be a nerf. It's a fix.

Do you honestly believe that 50/50/50/230/50 is the intended functionality?

there we go i'm all done now. May the flame of a flame commence and the first i predict will be obscenitor.
I would be honored.
1. not really a problem if u r near them cause hey u might get a free item.
This is retarded and you should feel bad for having typed it.

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July 30, 2009 12:09:01 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I don't know about a HP Crystal exploit on Exile.

its just a placement bug where the crystal effects those walking along the edge of the adjasent lane... u see Erebus's using mist there to stop grunts and gettign infinite mana from the crystal... very annoying.  hasn't anyone else seen this?

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July 30, 2009 12:49:06 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Any oversight which is corrected should be considered a nerf by your logic. If magnificent presence rank 2 decreased cooldowns by 230% of the desired effect but rank 1 and 3 functioned as intended, or if rank 3 of unit armor and weapon upgrades had the same oversight everyone would use them, but that wouldn't mean fixing them would be a nerf. It's a fix.

Do you honestly believe that 50/50/50/230/50 is the intended functionality?

I understand your logic, the "problem" is that it can coexist with my logic, so I have no reason to abandon it. No part of what you or I is saying undermines the logicality of the other. I suppose that means I think it would be simultaneously a nerf and a fix. 

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July 30, 2009 1:07:15 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I understand your logic, the "problem" is that it can coexist with my logic, so I have no reason to abandon it. No part of what you or I is saying undermines the logicality of the other. I suppose that means I think it would be simultaneously a nerf and a fix. 
I agree. I think the mechanic has been in place long enough for the game community to accept it as part of the game's mechanics so it's a little bit of column A and a little bit of column B. I don't like the idea of these guys setting up mini-communities in the interim while we wait for a fix because the community isn't large enough to support them, but what can you do?

Just another reason why in the long run I think custom game ranking needs to go, assuming we get a team matchmaking service.

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July 30, 2009 1:19:05 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Jukebox Hero,

ok here we go 

Disallowed per House Rules

1. not really a problem if u r near them cause hey u might get a free item.

2. ok so its a exploit if you choose to play a game with out doing the exploit yourself its your own fault for losing to it.

3. its being fixed but its not broken its just a little over powered.

4. ok even though i use minions i agreee its cheap and i don't personally do it this needs to be fixed.

Allowed per House Rules

1. lol ok if a team wants to have double demigods more power too them. demigod is a diverse game meaning the mroe diverse the abilities on your team the better you are when you decrease that pool of avaliable abilities by using two of the same demigod it makes it that much harder for you to win.

2. backdoor flagging doesn't always help sure it is useful but it doesn't need to be banned fro being used. You see someone beign erabus so he can bat swarm u be erabus too wow problem solved. (on a personal note i detest people who play 2v2's and 1v1's this is called stat whoring)

3. come on really its a legit strat. when you start to want to ban legit ways to play a game thats just wrong.

4. does it really matter who the items go to. the money will be spent either way its just a great tactic sometimes. Then again if u have one powerful player and everyone else is weak its a bonus for you.

there we go i'm all done now. May the flame of a flame commence and the first i predict will be obscenitor.

 

ok here we go

 

Disallowed per House Rules

 

1. Are you kidding me? THEN DON'T DO IT WHEN THEY'RE AROUND. You will have INFINITE mana in between skirmishes.

2. It's an exploit that only Sedna can do. How are you supposed to do it if you don't have a Sedna?

3. Whatever you say. Considering you only play Erebus, I bet you use it a lot.

4. ok. I don't know how it works, but don't the minions attack the Citadel while inside it and are UNKILLABLE?

 

Allowed per House Rules

 

I give up. You're arguing against everything that is being agreed with you?

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July 30, 2009 1:22:06 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Shade you're being trolled.

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July 30, 2009 1:30:28 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums


2.  Sedna Healing Wind + Level 3 idol Priests/High Priests

Actually I find this to be one of the few interesting item choices for Sedna. Late in the game High Priests don't have enough health to survive AoE attacks whereas I think Bishops do. Trading vulnerability for increased healing capacity is a legitimate choice that won't be correct in every situation so the severity of the bug is diminished.

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July 30, 2009 1:35:04 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Late game Sedna's dead anyway But really, early game/mid game is what counts.

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