Player drops, so keep AI but remove Gold/Exp from killing it: Idea by AnnihilatorX.

By on June 20, 2009 5:28:16 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

andpancakes

Join Date 04/2009
+4

This idea comes from AnnihilatorX.  I know it's simple, but I think it's brilliant.  So, GPG and Stardock, please think about this.  And EVEN IF you didn't completely remove the gold/exp awarded from killing an AI, you could at least cut it by 3/4 or something.  Please consider this because at the moment, if a player drops early in the game, it's almost futile to even keep trying.  If a player drops late in the game when everyone is higher level, it's not AS MUCH as an issue, but the farming issue definitely still causes problems.  So, think about it, and let us know?!

 

 - andpancakes

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June 20, 2009 6:35:16 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

this idea

blows

 

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June 20, 2009 8:05:45 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

This is a universal issue.  Basically anyone who has played Demigod online, had an ally rage-quit/drop, and had the enemy team repeatedly farm the AI for mass amounts of gold and experience should (in his or her right, competent mind) agree with and vouch for this idea.

 

 - andpancakes

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June 20, 2009 8:17:49 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

AI kills should net around half the gold. Killing them should still give something because otherwise it becomes free harassment.

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June 20, 2009 9:28:17 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting JagerJack,
AI kills should net around half the gold. Killing them should still give something because otherwise it becomes free harassment.

 

Indeed.  ANY reduction in the gold/exp bonuses received from killing AI would help to deter the crazy feeding frenzy.

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June 20, 2009 10:57:59 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

  Absolutly right, it is a big problem. AI kills should net much less gold, I would think possibly less than half. All the AI is realy good for is ocationaly grabing a flag. However I do have to mention the ones who rage quit early game probably suck near as bad as the AI. I have had an ocational game where team performance went up after somone quit, but that says a lot about how bad that person was.

The disadvantage of playing with an AI team mate is probably the biggest issue they need to work on to keep this game fun. Also some way of not penalizing a player for leaving after his partner(s) bail. I hate having to play for another 20 min in a dominate game when my partner feeds them 3 times in 5 min and then rage quits. Now I have to continue fighting this loosing battle with the "help" of the AI. If I bail  It goes on my record as a disconect too.

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June 20, 2009 11:49:13 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I think no gold reward and a small xp reward for killing the AI. You can't control when it goes off on its merry feeding run, so you can't exactly coordinate this "free harassment" you're concerned about.

The other team gets a free ride because they're no longer going to be fighting against 2 human players, how much more advantage do you want?

In fact I'm not even sure its free harassment, considering how fast I can kill an AI when I play, they spend most of their time respawning.

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June 21, 2009 12:19:11 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting woppin,
I think no gold reward and a small xp reward for killing the AI. You can't control when it goes off on its merry feeding run, so you can't exactly coordinate this "free harassment" you're concerned about.

The other team gets a free ride because they're no longer going to be fighting against 2 human players, how much more advantage do you want?

In fact I'm not even sure its free harassment, considering how fast I can kill an AI when I play, they spend most of their time respawning.

If you're going off to kill it in the first place, and you don't get anything, then it's free harassment, because it's time spent when you could have been doing something else.

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June 21, 2009 8:03:15 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

i second this

i think the disadvantage of having an AI  outweighs the "free harasment" by a mile

i can deal with some AI grabbing a flag now and then pretty easy

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June 21, 2009 8:45:01 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting JagerJack,

Quoting woppin, reply 6I think no gold reward and a small xp reward for killing the AI. You can't control when it goes off on its merry feeding run, so you can't exactly coordinate this "free harassment" you're concerned about.

The other team gets a free ride because they're no longer going to be fighting against 2 human players, how much more advantage do you want?

In fact I'm not even sure its free harassment, considering how fast I can kill an AI when I play, they spend most of their time respawning.
If you're going off to kill it in the first place, and you don't get anything, then it's free harassment, because it's time spent when you could have been doing something else.

 

In 2v2 against human, good human players waste your time by stalling you and retreat so he dones't get killed anyway. That's free harrasement too. You only need one member of your team to hunt down the AI so your other player can also stall the lone human player on the other team.

Since the AI just doesn't retreat like a human player do. If it is to ever be subsitute to human, killing it should net no reward. Even half reward is too much as you can just keep hunting down AI forever and still outfarm the other lone human player (since your other teamate would ideally stall his farming of creeps by harrasing him). At half that's still 800 gold per 30 seconds as well as experience, while the other lone human gains nothing.

Any award for killing a baby brain AI and netting reward in doing so is just outrages, and immoral like getting paid to outperform baby in chess while your friend stand laughing. Sucks to be the baby carer nextby.

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June 21, 2009 9:20:58 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Sounds like a reasonable change.

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June 21, 2009 10:25:41 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

So what? You want it to be 2v1? What's the point of that? By making the AI worth nothing you're at least giving the person on his own a chance. You make it sound like the AI charging at you and dying over and over is somehow useful to the other guy, it's not, you know as well as I do you can kill an AI player in a couple of bursts because they're terrible and they buy crap items rather than health stacking. There is no situation where I would trade a human ally for an AI, because the AI simply doesn't coordinate. I'm still not going to kill you 1+A1 vs 2 because I can't coordinate burst damage.

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June 21, 2009 10:33:41 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

It has been suggested before, no responde from either SD or GPG......

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June 21, 2009 11:08:25 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Personally, I kinda like it as it is....

 

If someone quits because of connection issues at the start, we remake.

If someone quits because they died too many times, yeah you're stuck with an AI but you were probably going to lose anyway because that's why he quit.

If someone quits because of connection issues in the middle of the game, tough luck.  It doesn't happen often enough to matter that much.

 

Giving the AI different awards doesn't scale all that well across difficulty levels.  Maybe on newbie servers it's the best guy there; why is it worth half the gold or whatever?  Also, what about when doubles are allowed?  I have to memorize which of the 3 erebus's was the color of the guy who just quit because he is "special" and not worth as much gold and so isn't as much a priority. 

 

In addition, the next patch is going to implement harsher statistical penalties for rage quitting and probably make these stats visible in the lobby and even lower the priority of connections with rage quitters in skirmish and pantheon so we probably won't be seeing as many rage quitters soon anyway.

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June 21, 2009 11:21:37 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

If you're as worse than the AI, the game isn't seriour, you're just pushing buttons to see what they do... like you know, 4-year olds?

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June 21, 2009 11:33:39 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Sly_Squash,
Personally, I kinda like it as it is....

 

If someone quits because of connection issues at the start, we remake.

If someone quits because they died too many times, yeah you're stuck with an AI but you were probably going to lose anyway because that's why he quit.

If someone quits because of connection issues in the middle of the game, tough luck.  It doesn't happen often enough to matter that much.

 

Giving the AI different awards doesn't scale all that well across difficulty levels.  Maybe on newbie servers it's the best guy there; why is it worth half the gold or whatever?  Also, what about when doubles are allowed?  I have to memorize which of the 3 erebus's was the color of the guy who just quit because he is "special" and not worth as much gold and so isn't as much a priority. 

 

In addition, the next patch is going to implement harsher statistical penalties for rage quitting and probably make these stats visible in the lobby and even lower the priority of connections with rage quitters in skirmish and pantheon so we probably won't be seeing as many rage quitters soon anyway.

 

none of your arguments hold well

1) u can remake regardless it isnt relevant

2)is still the same regardless of change

3)tough luck, but need the lucky team be awarded as well? double tough luck?

4)u cant see which one is AI? u call that a disadvantage ? cmon u are playing 2v1 or 3v2 etc, i cant take that comment serious

5)again how many people disconnect isnt relevant since the change only takes place WHEN people disconnect/quit

besides i dont know where u from or if u play only with friends,i see a guy drop at least once every 3 games

 

what u forget

Ive had a couple of games leading like 3lvls (lvl 10 vs lvl 7) and then i had a guy drop and the opposing team started to kill the AI like mad and that gave them such an advantage that they won the game. If i had just an AI without feeding them all that gold and exp, i would have still won those games being ahead so far.

 

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June 21, 2009 12:32:38 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

It's as simple as an exploit, really.  Because people know how easy/rewarding it is to kill/farm AI, they tend to go out of their way to kill one (and who wouldn't?  It nets fast, easy, convenient gold/exp).  There is a pattern to AI actions/reactions, so it's not hard to figure it out.  Thus, killing them involves minimal risk with big rewards.  The cost-benefit analysis is too skewed in the favor of benefit.  If when human player X drops/rage-quits, this skew would be fair if the opposing team was forced to lose a human player as well, but who in the world would want that?  It's easier to just cut the rewards from killing AI - simple as that.

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June 21, 2009 3:46:41 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Antikid,


1) u can remake regardless it isnt relevant

Yeah it is.  It suggest they need not waste development and testing time on a feature that isn't needed at the start of games.

 

Quoting Antikid,

2)is still the same regardless of change

No, it's not.  What if whatever scale factor they give the AI makes it actually advantageous that the human player left?  If you have a human feeder on your team, suddenly there is an incentive to ENCOURAGE him to rage quit so you can have an AI with marked benefits.  If BOTH teams have one human feeder, the team that got their feeder to rage quit suddenly has an ADVANTAGE.  Why encourage rage quitting in this way?

 

Quoting Antikid,

3)tough luck, but need the lucky team be awarded as well? double tough luck?

Like I said, nonissue.  How many games crash/dc mid game?  This game is unstable, but it doesn't crash mid-game for me or most people it seems.  And if they mysteriously dc it's probably their network connection, not demigod... if that induces a loss oh well; blame them and don't expect the game to compensate for their shoddy connection... just don't play with them again.

 

Quoting Antikid,

4)u cant see which one is AI? u call that a disadvantage ? cmon u are playing 2v1 or 3v2 etc, i cant take that comment serious

Why not?  There's no I AM AN AI SO I AM NOT WORTH AS MUCH GOLD overlay indicating anything.  The point is simply that it creates an inconsistency in the game logic that is neither obvious nor intuitive.  It also creates an endless balancing problem; what if they improve the AI in the game?  Suddenly they have to rebalance the AI kill worth.  It just isn't worth the effort IMO.  Like I said, we want to play humans vs. humans.  If they rage quit (which shouldn't happen as often now) you were probably gonna lose anyway.  And the other corner cases (they dc mid-game "by accident" not happening often enough and dc's at the start of the game you can just remake) make this venture an unnecessary waste of dev time.

 

Quoting Antikid,

5)again how many people disconnect isnt relevant since the change only takes place WHEN people disconnect/quit

besides i dont know where u from or if u play only with friends,i see a guy drop at least once every 3 games


I do too.  Like I said, it was because they were probably gonna lose anyway.   Also like I said, because of the harsher penalties on disconnects this is a trend that should be taking a drastic downturn anyway.


Quoting Antikid,

what u forget

Ive had a couple of games leading like 3lvls (lvl 10 vs lvl 7) and then i had a guy drop and the opposing team started to kill the AI like mad and that gave them such an advantage that they won the game. If i had just an AI without feeding them all that gold and exp, i would have still won those games being ahead so far.

 

Oh boy; totally overlooked the fact that sometimes the AI dies more than it should

I know the problem you are trying to solve, but this isn't a solution.  It creates unintuitive and unclear gameplay nuances, marks another area that requires development and rebalancing, doesn't fix the problem anyway, and attempts to fix a problem that is being dealt with better via 1.) future improvements to the AI and 2.) increases to penalties for disconnecting anyway. 

IMO, file this suggestion under "meh"

 

 

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June 21, 2009 4:31:28 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

  I don't see how reducing AI kill worth is un intuitive. Players seem to have plenty of intuition to hunt the AI mercilesly then go after you once they got their free gold in a nice fair 2 v 1. I think they would know about the reduced AI kill value at the patch or very soon thereafter. And as for it encouraging rage quits, well I doubt it will change those numbers much, rage quiters aren't motivated by whats good or bad for the team.  We are mostly refering to early game quiters btw.

  Saying nothing needs to be done is like sticking your head in the sand on this one. I play 2 v 1 against Hard AI (double gold and exp for them) when I am bored to test new ideas and still beat the AI, usualy without dieng. So yes it should definately be tweeked. Most everyone who plays this game can beat at least one hard AI into the ground and what you get when sobody RQ's is a medium AI. Definitely needs some fix. Better AI isn't the answer becouse to date no game has made an AI thats near what a real player can do. If your playing team play with your buddys on vent I am sure you don't mind rage quiters becouse it's not happening to you. But many of us don't have that luxury.

  The fact that they were probly gona loose, well even if AI value was reduced they will probly still loose acording to your logic so what is the harm. At least allow the player stuck with AI some kind of fighting chance. As it stands now it is an exponentaly growing slaughter as you watch messages flash at the top of the screen every 45 seconds saying your rage quitting buddy just gave the opsing team another 2000 gold bonus.

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June 21, 2009 5:15:54 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Grotto19,
  I don't see how reducing AI kill worth is un intuitive.

You're relatively new to the game.  You kill enemy erebus once at lvl 10 and it nets X gold.  You play another game and kill enemy erebus at level 10 and it nets (< X) gold.  You wonder "WTF!!?"  It's an unintuitive gameplay hack drummed up by the community because they think band-aids = good game design.

Quoting Grotto19,
rage quiters aren't motivated by whats good or bad for the team.  We are mostly refering to early game quiters btw.

You're right; now they're going to be encouraged by their team to rage quit so at least the feeder doesn't cost them much of anything.



Quoting Grotto19,
  Saying nothing needs to be done is like sticking your head in the sand on this one. I play 2 v 1 against Hard AI (double gold and exp for them) when I am bored to test new ideas and still beat the AI, usualy without dieng. So yes it should definately be tweeked. Most everyone who plays this game can beat at least one hard AI into the ground and what you get when sobody RQ's is a medium AI. Definitely needs some fix. Better AI isn't the answer becouse to date no game has made an AI thats near what a real player can do. If your playing team play with your buddys on vent I am sure you don't mind rage quiters becouse it's not happening to you. But many of us don't have that luxury.

I'm not saying it's not a problem; I'm saying it's already being addressed five times over and we should reconsider it afterward.  Those five times over, btw, are

1-stiffer statistical penalties for rage-quitting

2-join penalties in skirmish/pantheon where rage quitters are lower priority connects

3-development of better AI

4-karma system (people who rage quit will get poor karma and no one will want to play with them

5-concede option so rage-quitting isn't your only way out of a losing proposition

6*-probably a player ban system is forthcoming too...

Quoting Grotto19,

  The fact that they were probly gona loose, well even if AI value was reduced they will probly still loose acording to your logic so what is the harm. At least allow the player stuck with AI some kind of fighting chance.

Because if it doesn't sufficiently solve the problem why bother with the development effort that could be spent on better things?  Seriously, this problem has been noted by the developers and they're already working on tackling it in an exhorbant number of ways.  Complain after you see how the existing solutions play out.

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June 21, 2009 5:22:06 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Sly_Squash,

1-stiffer statistical penalties for rage-quitting

2-join penalties in skirmish/pantheon where rage quitters are lower priority connects

3-development of better AI

4-karma system (people who rage quit will get poor karma and no one will want to play with them

5-concede option so rage-quitting isn't your only way out of a losing proposition

6*-probably a player ban system is forthcoming too...

None of those points will prevent AI-farming, except maybe 3).

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June 21, 2009 5:35:55 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Spooky,

Quoting Sly_Squash, reply 19
1-stiffer statistical penalties for rage-quitting

2-join penalties in skirmish/pantheon where rage quitters are lower priority connects

3-development of better AI

4-karma system (people who rage quit will get poor karma and no one will want to play with them

5-concede option so rage-quitting isn't your only way out of a losing proposition

6*-probably a player ban system is forthcoming too...
None of those points will prevent AI-farming, except maybe 3).

 

All of these points discourage rage quitting, which means no AI, which prevents AI-farming.

Think about it.

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June 21, 2009 5:40:36 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

You mean like in the real world where laws absolutely prevent people from killing each other? Yeah...

 

There is of course nothing wrong with discouraging rage quitting. However, simply letting those measurements be the only solution to AI farming would be absolutely ignorant. As long as AI players can happen in the game, AI farming will always be a problem.

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June 21, 2009 5:49:47 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Spooky,
You mean like in the real world where laws absolutely prevent people from killing each other? Yeah...

 

There is of course nothing wrong with discouraging rage quitting. However, simply letting those measurements be the only solution to AI farming would be absolutely ignorant. As long as AI players can happen in the game, AI farming will always be a problem.

Not for me.  AI at beginning = restart.  AI at mid = either was gonna lose anyway or incredibly rare isolated occurrance that isn't worth worrying about.

 

The way I think of it is this: support isn't free.  If I were to say DEVS GIVE US ANOTHER MAP no one is going to argue NO WE DON'T WANT MAPS without considering the development cost (i.e. that new map came at the expense of something else).  Since there are already five solutions forthcoming AND as stated each of those three cases doesn't really warrant developer action significantly AND this proposed solution is another point of rebalancing implying increased QA constraints, I'd rather devs spent their time elsewhere.

 

Give us replays, clan options, fix pantheon/skirmish.  We can deal with this thing ourselves, at least for some time to come, and especially with the forthcoming enhancements.

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June 21, 2009 5:51:10 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Sly_Squash,

Quoting Spooky, reply 20
Quoting Sly_Squash, reply 19
1-stiffer statistical penalties for rage-quitting

2-join penalties in skirmish/pantheon where rage quitters are lower priority connects

3-development of better AI

4-karma system (people who rage quit will get poor karma and no one will want to play with them

5-concede option so rage-quitting isn't your only way out of a losing proposition

6*-probably a player ban system is forthcoming too...
None of those points will prevent AI-farming, except maybe 3).
 

All of these points discourage rage quitting, which means no AI, which prevents AI-farming.

Think about it.

 

What you proposed is good on paper but I don't see how it can be implemented in a short time. No matter how AI is improved it would not be as good as human player, no argument. My suggestion is a simple 2 lines of change of code to temporarily fix what is totally inbalanced at the moment. I had different suggestions to discourage rage quitting but AI and rage quitting are different issues. There are plenty of games I play which player quits not because of rage, because of bad ping and simspeed. Even rage quit is discouraged AI will still be a significant issue.

You are also exaggerating on the disadvantage of it being unintuitive. The AI farming problem is a much bigger problem, pissing hundreds of players; than artificially pissing off a few newbie players (You can count the number of supporters of this change compared to non-supporters in this thread alone. ). Even that is a hypothetical situation: not many newbie are as dumb as not asking why to other players. Certainly another solution is to just display a message saying "You just killed an AI", that's what, 10 lines of code.

 

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June 21, 2009 6:02:04 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Well, at least what I am saying looks good on paper then.

What is being proposed looks to me like a dirty hack even on paper.

 

And I don't see it getting implemented anyway......

 

 

My suggestion is, if this is really something you want, is that they should implement an AI handicap option (either kill reward, health, or an option for both).  Setting it at 200% means AI's get twice the health or gold reward or whatever, 50% means half.  This way, since it's a clearly-visible setting in the game options menu, it is exposed to players rather than being an arbitrary game nuance that must be discovered manually.  This would require interface changes and more than a few lines of code and testing (so again, not worth it atm IMO) but at least this is software development done right rather than gameplay hacks to appease whiners.

 

It also enables more options for skirmish games.  Can you win 3 humans vs 3 AI when they have twice the starting health?  Can you win 1 vs 3 AI when they have 50% health?  It's useful in more places and it's more intuitive.  It's software development done by someone with an ounce of foresight.

<--is a proponent of skirmish options in a skirmish-style game... see my "why can't we play 4-player FFA" thread

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