[Gameplay] Flag Locking Solution that scales well

By Brentmeisterr on September 14, 2008 2:21:34 AM from

I have a three-fold proposition for flag locking. It both keeps their strategic importance in the game and gives many valuable ways to counter them. It also scales nicely from 1v1 to 5v5.

1) Increase the casting time for the lock item to 6/7 seconds

2) Make the flag locking item interruptable by simply taking any damage

3) Give each player one unlock per game!

Explainations:

1) Locks are currently applied too fast. If it took 6/7 seconds than that would allow you interrupt any locking in progress even after being stunned.

2) When coupled with number 1 this requires the team trying to lock to completely clear the flag area of creeps and heroes before attempting to lock.

3) Each player gets one key per game. This makes unlocking a strategic decision that must wait until the right moment to be effective. This is the idea that scales well because in a 1v1 you could only strategically unlock the flag once for a killing push into your opponents base. In a 5v5 you'd have several chances to reclaim key flags in case they get locked. Keys work the same way as locks meaning they take 6 /7 seconds and are interrupted by taking any damage. This change adds more depth and strategy to the overall game because timing this correctly are key(pun intended)!

Bonus:

4) The extra change! Make a graphic that shows up big when someone is locking a flag. I think a circle that is slowly filling as the casting time is being met would be sufficient. This circle would be shown about the demigods head.

Anyways key things to remember are:

a ) you can only cap the flag when you have it cleared of demigods and creeps because you can't take any damage while setting the lock

b ) it can still be unlocked but each character can only do this once per game

Additions from Discussion

5 ) Add a graphical indication that a flag is locked.

6 ) Your key can be earned by getting a 5+ kill streak. However, you can only have one key at a time.

+5 Karma | 25 Replies

i think this works well i agree with it cause most times the person rambo style runs in with 3 enemy demigods around it and locks it fast then gets out or dies but still applies it which is annoyin

Epic fail. What if the game goes on for 2 hours? If you said one unlock per 10 min per player, that would be much better.

One lock per game is your solution? wtf :/

That'd be so stupid.

@innociv: WTF inno :/ Did you even read the thread before posting? I said you'd get one key(which is used for unlocking) per game.

@DeadMG: A 2 hour demigod game!?! If demigod games start lasting 2 hours the game has bigger problems then locks. A typical game is supposed to be somewhere be 40-60min long I believe. Most my 3v3 games take about that long so you figure it takes a whole hour(which is a long game in my experience). So 60 minutes and 6 unlocks. That means you can expect a flag to be unlocked every 10 minutes. Also giving your key back every 10 minutes would be ridiculous in a 5v5 game. That'd be 30 unlocks per game per side. That'd be $15000 in locks destroyed per game. Not to mention your chances of actually ever being able to add a meaningful lock go to nil because its likely someone on the opposing team hasn't used their lock in the previous 10 minutes.

@Strikersgun: Thank you for taking the time to read the thread and think before posting(karma+). I'm also glad you like the idea. The whole rambo locking or stunning then locking is a fairly big problem

DeadMg did get me thinking about something else though. Perhaps a player could EARN his key back. The way to earn your key back would be to get 5/10 kills or something. This would add more value to actually killing other Demigods. Also I think it should be 5 kills from when you use your lock. This means that one strategy could be using your key early and trying to earn it back but you couldn't stockpile keys.

1. Fine. I like it.

2. Maybe. Could get annoying in small contested areas. (Regulus with range upgrade?)

3. Don't think so. Could easily turn into "Who runs out faster loses the flag."

The whole point to number 3 is to make you treasure the keys. They should be used when you have a steady enough hand in the game to control the flag and/or make a final push to end the game. They shouldn't be used willy nilly. Imagine a 3v3. You think the has advanced far enough and you have a shot at winning but the opposing team has just locked the middle and their two flags. So you send a guy to one of their portals and you use another of your teams 3 keys to take the middle flag. Now you push into their base for the final kill. For the most part locks provide a great deal of security but you still have to be a little careful about your flags at strategic moments. You can always take the flag they unlocked back with your own key but you'd have to have actual control of the flag.

Number 2 I feel is necessary because people are calling for the removal of stuns from the game left and right. Once these are gone there will only be a few heroes/skills that can interrupt the locking/unlocking. This means that once these skills are exhausted there is no way to stop the locking. As for the regulus arguement I think the idea is that you must have absolute control of the flag before locking it. You will have to kill/chase away that regulus to do something as big as locking the flag. This shouldn't be that hard if you have more than one person at the flag and all they have is regulus.

I guess 2 wouldn't be that much of a deal if it only took six seconds or so. Enough time to interrupt if you're close, but not enough that it's impossible.

3, I still think what you describe is "Ideally". I suppose it depends on the community.

I still don't like not being able to do anything with a locked flag. There should be a visible detail/icon/etc. to tell if a flag is locked, at least.

What is flag locking?

Quoting innociv,

reply 3

One lock per game is your solution? wtf :/

That'd be so stupid.

Agreed here locks are not a problem you should be defending the area not allowing you opponent to be able to get the lock.

Actually locks are a problem.

You can permanantly lock flags.

Brents "solution" is just silly, though.

Nights Edge - There is an item available in the Consumable Shop which allows you to lock a flag you own for five minutes, during which your opponent's cannot cap the flag. Currently this is considered by many to be a broken or incomplete mechanic, as the item is very cheap but can have great consequences.

OP - points 1 and 2 do alot to address the current problems with locking. I personally find the previously discussed "weighted locking" idea simpler (i.e. a locked flag requires two or more demigods sit in proximity to unlock, or uncaps more slowly) but this works.

Point 3 necessarily follows if you go this way, because you need the capability to unlock. I'm not sure if I would give every player a key, make them a more expensive consumable item, or an achievement reward (kill 10 demis without dying, kill neutral boss mob, etc) but it doesn't really matter. If you are going to include "hard locking" in the game you need to have a chance to unlock, in addition to making locking more difficult.

Generally - I'm thinking that as we get antsy with the current build we tend to grow frustrated with each other, but I'm sure the devs find these discussion threads much more useful when those disagreeing provide *reasons* as opposed to simply stating that someone on the internet is wrong...

Peace,

Kestrel

[Registering opinion through cogent argument since 1863)

First off thanks for the feedback and thoughtful post Kestrel.

The problems I see with current suggested solutions are:

A) Nothing really deals with the stun then lock quickly strategy.

If you have to purchase your unlocking consumable then it really comes down to a money war on who is willing to spend more money to hold a flag and not a whole lot about strategy.

C) Other solutions for locking require locking and unlocking items to function in different ways depending on the number of players. These aren't scalable solutions they are just different solutions at each different number of players.

The strengths of my solution are that it actually scales on its own and it provides a new strategic decision to be made. Earning/Re-Earning your key(on something other than money) does amplify and make this idea better though. In addition, due to the interruptable nature of the locking/unlocking it requires team coordination which is always a plus.

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Because for one, stuns are broken and are going to get fixed?

And for two, these been plenty of solutions, like not making the locking broken and overpowered?

They're just in the other thread. But you thought your idea was oh-so great that it needed to be its own topic instead of a reply. When you don't even understand the issue with locks.

@ reply 12 -

A. It's a good point. The mechanism of the actual locking, as opposed to how to deal with a already-locked flag, hasn't really been explored in depth in other threads

B. I'm not sure that this holds water. I find that exploiting game economy can be at least as strategic as timing usage on items you already have, and this would certainly qualify.

C. Scaling as a mechanic, when you put it that way, is far simpler in your model. The weighted model itself, however, remains more intuitive. It takes an element of complexity out of our hands as players and puts it in the laps of the devs, who would have to deal with making it work appropriately given a certain number of players. I guess it depends on what you are going for

Quoting Ke5trel,

reply 14

A. It's a good point. The mechanism of the actual locking, as opposed to how to deal with a already-locked flag, hasn't really been explored in depth in other threads

It's been talked about plenty.

In fact, the 2nd biggest thread in this entire forum (beta feedback) is on the subject. And it's been on the first page, near the top, for the past few days. People have talked about having it take longer to cast, or having an unlock item. It's not really the best solution. An unlock item isn't a horrible idea though.

Off-topic, I apologize

/rant

So Innociv, show me where the beef is?

Show me where in that other thread anyone talks about the actual "locking" mechanism (i.e. how does one lock the flag) *in depth* and not just how to deal with the aftermath (i.e. how long does lock last once in place, what can affect lock once in place)

Brentmeisterr mentions it briefly at reply # 38 in that thread (titled Flag Locking, Broken or Not?) and then expands on it in this post. In most forums that's acceptable, as he is taking the premise that the mechanic needs tweaking and provides a solution, as well as a venue for discussion of that solution. This is the part where you get to disagree with some or all, and explain why you feel the way you do.

The truth is that you've made truly awesome contributions to these forums but hostility toward those who have differing viewpoints doesn't encourage innovation or dialogue. It doesn't make the game better. If you can focus on the ideas themselves, analyze what's wrong or right with them, and tell those of us who don't get it yet WHY you feel that way then you'll continue to raise the level of the community. Alternatively, register your approval or disapproval once and be done with it.

/potion wears off

Enough this is beta 1 and if you can't handle a little lock means you got out strategized so go kill more creeps and farm till lock wheres off you should have a level advantage.

Opponents lock= more money and exp as long as u protect ur flags by locking them urll get to lvl 25 before they reach 20 and basically f*** them over many times over while waiting for the flag to unlock then win it in a huge finish and by the time they reach ur lvl anyways urll have the best items in game (in your mind) and still rape them over cause they will still take a while to get the items they need.

I edited the OP to add the regaining locks possibility and the graphical indication that a flag is locked. Anyways what are other good ways to earn your key back? I think 5 kills in a row would be fine. The opponents could counter this by simply focusing on killing you to reset your streak. However, are generals going to be killing other demigods too? I am drawing blanks on other ideas for gaining your keys back so does anyone have a suggestion for that(other than kill streaks i mean)?

Generals could probably have their own units count towards them.

Another solution could be making locks breakable and give them HP .

For example give locks 30 000 Hp with a degen of 100 Hp/sec (which means it would break "naturally" after 5 min) and give Demigods the ability to attack it to break it faster ...

Of course it would need a little bit of balancing (cooldown at the shop before buying another, tweaking HP and degen ..etc..) .

i like Sakhapoo's idea.

it should only be DGs to attack it (scripting creeps not to attack a flag is a cakewalk) lest all the creeps drop what they're doing and rush the lock.

General's unit's kills should definitely earn them kill count and xp...I'd be surprised if the devs have it planned any other way...

oooh, nice sakhapoo..Giving locks hp with time decay works well, and could scale - eliminates need for keys and rewards strategic defensives and offensives at the flag...Demi-damage only is a good call...

I might like this better than weighted locking from a gamer's standpoint, makes you feel like you are doing something by attacking the lock rather than simply standing around...OTOH, you still need long lock proc or easy interrupt to prevent easy perma-locking...

Other thoughts on ways the devs could incorporate earning keys, pick one:

- If you do kill streaks you might need heal streaks for Sedna (i.e. healing the equivalent of 5 demigods to full health)..you could tie any number of achievements to keys: stay alive for 15 minutes, destroy seven towers on one life, kill 300 minotaurs in one life, kill 100 priests, reach a health/mana level of over 5000, etc. The trick would be simply to make certain you didn't bring too many keys into play..

- Still not sure if there will be neutral mobs...if so, killing the big bad ogre should earn your team a key

- keys attained at certain levels (i.e. at level 10 your earn your first key, at level 22 you earn your second)

- The golden snitch model - keys are flying all over the map, you have to move fast and be lucky to grab one

- certain fortifications could hold keys, like the fort on Waterfall. The structures should be badass but accessible and pop back up every five minutes or so...

What else?

the 5000 health and mana achievment is wayy too easy i usually get that on any of the 3 characters by lvl 15

Quoting Ke5trel,

reply 23

- Still not sure if there will be neutral mobs...if so, killing the big bad ogre should earn your team a key

- The golden snitch model - keys are flying all over the map, you have to move fast and be lucky to grab one

Great feedback Ke5trel. I especially like these two ideas for gaining back keys. Particularly because they give both teams the oppurtunity to prevent the other team from taking the keys.

Quoting Sakhapoo,

reply 21

Another solution could be making locks breakable and give them HP .

For example give locks 30 000 Hp with a degen of 100 Hp/sec (which means it would break "naturally" after 5 min) and give Demigods the ability to attack it to break it faster ...

Of course it would need a little bit of balancing (cooldown at the shop before buying another, tweaking HP and degen ..etc..) .

I think this is a really neat concept. It scales well on its own. In 1v1 the lock would fall more slowly with 1 person hitting it then in a 5v5 game with 5 people hitting it. Its a really good idea so hats off. However, I still prefer the idea of keys though because they allow for more concise quick strikes at the locks. It takes only 6 seconds to remove a lock with a key but attacking would still take many times longer even with good dps. With keys you can organize the take over of several important flags with teamwork and turn the game around quickly.

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[Gameplay] Flag Locking Solution that scales well