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Interesting article…MS and the “Dark Side”.

By on February 6, 2016 7:29:08 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

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Join Date 04/2002
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Permit me to quote:

“Microsoft Marketing chief Chris Capossela explained that users who choose Windows 7 do so “at your own risk, at your own peril” and he revealed Microsoft has concerns about its future software and hardware compatibility, security and more.

“We do worry when people are running an operating system that’s 10 years old that the next printer they buy isn’t going to work well, or they buy a new game, they buy Fallout 4, a very popular game, and it doesn’t work on a bunch of older machines,” Capossela stated. “And so, as we are pushing our ISV [Independent Software Vendor] and hardware partners to build great new stuff that takes advantage of Windows 10 that obviously makes the old stuff really bad and not to mention viruses and security problems.”

He also stressed it is “so incredibly important to try to end the fragmentation of the Windows install base” and to get users to a “safer place”.” – Forbes

The only real issue is sales and profits. There’s no reason (apart from stopping support) that Windows 7 should be any less secure than W10…

Wasn’t MS supposed to support W7 until 2020? Or…is that a new nuance to “support”? Will they only issue “vital” patches? And, if you want a machine with a Skylake processor? Well, MS won’t support W7 or 8.1 on a Skylake CPU, it seems.

It seems MS will only provide support for W7 and W8.1 until midsummer 2017.

Already MS has downloaded W10 “by accident” to some computers, and has changed the GWX (get Windows 10) app to seem as if you have no choice but to update. Will they also take away the possibility of clicking the close button to avoid the false choice?

An interesting question.

Incidentally, I took the free upgrade because Stardock made it possible to keep skinning the ugliness (thank you Neil!). I did the shop because Mark needed the spanking…lol. In truth, he’s been a great friend for yonks. I’m trying to convince him to at least give W10 a try.

Source:

http://www.computerworld.com/article/3030564/microsoft-windows/microsoft-uses-the-force-you-will-upgrade-to-windows-10.html

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February 7, 2016 3:19:57 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Daiwa,


Quoting Uvah,

Pays not to have auto updates enabled.



Until you can't.  

MS had better not pull that forced update shit with 8.1 or I'll disconnect it fom the net and switch to Linux for my primary OS somewhat sooner.  I won't be bullied into accepting crap I either want or need... I don't give a fech hòw big Microsoft thinks it is.

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February 7, 2016 4:02:56 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Glad Daiwa understood that GWX can and very well might be changed...as was in the source quoted in the OP (last paragraph).

 

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February 7, 2016 4:15:40 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

For people like you and me who have the knowledge and ability to select and download a different browser, it's not anti-competitive.

But for the vast majority of consumers who either don't know about alternative browsers and/or don't have the skills to choose an alternative, it is a defacto anti competitive move.

Consumer ignorance is not the fault of MS, but it's disingenuous to take advantage of it - just because it's legal.

 

"Your" ignorance is not someone else' problem.  Ever.  The aforementioned squeeze bottle is exactly the same scenario.  When Heinz started selling ketchup in squeeze bottles, someone, somewhere, stopped selling their superior squeeze bottles because no one cared to look for them, or pay for them, when they were already getting one for free without the hassle of filling it up in the first place.

 

Once you decide it means anything that gives you an advantage someone else can't achieve, anti-competitive essentially boils down to everything a company does.  If you make a better product, have better advertising, lower costs, anything that makes yours a better product, you're hurting your competition.  Stardock is anti-competitive because Start10 is sold with computers, a better product than other options, etc.  There is no end to the insanity when you go down this road, and that is why the anti-trust laws were gutted following the insane over-reach against Microsoft.

 

It hurt their competition to package the browser, this is unavoidably true.  It was not an anti-trust issue.  Assuming they really did, and I put nothing past them or government so I can't say either way without doing far too much research, punishing companies that didn't only sell their software was an anti-trust violation.  That is where things change from simply being better, to coercing other companies into exclusive arrangements.  You can exploit market dominance, if only temporarily, to kill superior competitors by wiping out their outlets.  Anyone that doesn't go along becomes uncompetitive and goes under, and there lies the immoral, and currently illegal, trust.  An agreement between two or more companies to exclude another from the market.

 

What's so damned despicable about this debacle is MS citing 'security concerns' with previous OSes.  Several tech writers have denounced this move as scare tactics and quite dishonest.  The truth is, MS wants everybody using Win 10, and will stop at nothing to make that happen.  Well I have some bad news for MS, I'm switching to a Linux OS when support for Win 8.1 is taken off the table.

 

This is talk, entirely.  Full support for Windows 7 is over, as scheduled.  They are no longer supporting new hardware, just as they did with every previous iteration, and are only doing security updates for the duration of extended support, just as they did with every previous iteration.

 

When Microsoft released XP with SP2, they included countless drivers for hardware that came out post release, their automatic updates included these optional drivers as well.  Having the SP2 disk made the typical installation much easier because many devices simply wouldn't work until you got your disk out or went online to fix them.  It did not mean the drivers didn't exist, you simply had to go to those third parties to get them.  Anyone that releases major hardware in the next several years, and doesn't release a Windows 7 driver, is committing suicide.  The only thing happening is what always has, Microsoft wont be going through them, verifying their stability, and adding them to the update packages.

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February 7, 2016 9:20:45 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

MS is a defacto monopoly and used it's position in the OS market to include it's browser, giving it a nearly automatic and substantial position in the browser market. That's a fact. 

All the other things you mentioned in your reply had nothing to do with what I said. And putting words in my mouth so you could win an argument is a slimy straw man debate tactic...Just go ahead and show me where I said or implied that SD was anti competitive, or that having lower cost than your competitor was anti-competitive, etc.

Interestingly, you didn't respond to my "legal but unethical" comment. Can I assume then that you believe as long as a company can pull a fast one on the consumer, whatever they can get away with is OK?

About 7 or 8 years ago, the maker of Thomas trains was found to be using lead in their toys. I don't recall how it was discovered, but if they hadn't been, would it still have been OK to make those lead filled toys despite the consumer's ignorance?

Quoting psychoak,

"Your" ignorance is not someone else' problem.  Ever.  The aforementioned squeeze bottle is exactly the same scenario.  When Heinz started selling ketchup in squeeze bottles, someone, somewhere, stopped selling their superior squeeze bottles because no one cared to look for them, or pay for them, when they were already getting one for free without the hassle of filling it up in the first place.


Once you decide it means anything that gives you an advantage someone else can't achieve, anti-competitive essentially boils down to everything a company does.  If you make a better product, have better advertising, lower costs, anything that makes yours a better product, you're hurting your competition.  Stardock is anti-competitive because Start10 is sold with computers, a better product than other options, etc.  There is no end to the insanity when you go down this road, and that is why the anti-trust laws were gutted following the insane over-reach against Microsoft.

 It hurt their competition to package the browser, this is unavoidably true.  It was not an anti-trust issue.  Assuming they really did, and I put nothing past them or government so I can't say either way without doing far too much research, punishing companies that didn't only sell their software was an anti-trust violation.  That is where things change from simply being better, to coercing other companies into exclusive arrangements.  You can exploit market dominance, if only temporarily, to kill superior competitors by wiping out their outlets.  Anyone that doesn't go along becomes uncompetitive and goes under, and there lies the immoral, and currently illegal, trust.  An agreement between two or more companies to exclude another from the market.

 What's so damned despicable about this debacle is MS citing 'security concerns' with previous OSes.  Several tech writers have denounced this move as scare tactics and quite dishonest.  The truth is, MS wants everybody using Win 10, and will stop at nothing to make that happen.  Well I have some bad news for MS, I'm switching to a Linux OS when support for Win 8.1 is taken off the table.


This is talk, entirely.  Full support for Windows 7 is over, as scheduled.  They are no longer supporting new hardware, just as they did with every previous iteration, and are only doing security updates for the duration of extended support, just as they did with every previous iteration.

 
When Microsoft released XP with SP2, they included countless drivers for hardware that came out post release, their automatic updates included these optional drivers as well.  Having the SP2 disk made the typical installation much easier because many devices simply wouldn't work until you got your disk out or went online to fix them.  It did not mean the drivers didn't exist, you simply had to go to those third parties to get them.  Anyone that releases major hardware in the next several years, and doesn't release a Windows 7 driver, is committing suicide.  The only thing happening is what always has, Microsoft wont be going through them, verifying their stability, and adding them to the update packages.

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February 7, 2016 9:40:21 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Borg999,

Just go ahead and show me where I said or implied that SD was anti competitive, or that having lower cost than your competitor was anti-competitive, etc.

SD was used as an example of simple commercial practise.

The only people who ever complained about the inclusion of IE with the OS was Europe....because both Netscape and Opera came from Europe.

There is absolutely no legitimate reason NOT consider a web browser as part of an OS, just as Notepad is 'part of an OS'....in fact a browser is MORE legitimate....

When one uses emotive argument such as 'pull a fast one'....one has lost.

 

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February 7, 2016 11:57:25 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

About 7 or 8 years ago, the maker of Thomas trains was found to be using lead in their toys. I don't recall how it was discovered, but if they hadn't been, would it still have been OK to make those lead filled toys despite the consumer's ignorance?

 

Is this a fictional land where painting children's toys with lead isn't a criminal activity because of known health hazards, and companies aren't required by law to post notice of such things as lead content?  If so, then yes, it's still okay to make those toys.  If they were really known to be dangerous, they would be outlawed.  A great many things are that shouldn't, such as diazinon, which was taken off store shelves and restricted to licensed agricultural applications because stupid people were spraying it in nurseries despite clear warnings that it was harmful to children and only for outdoor use..

 

In equating product availability with what are knowingly harmful criminal acts against children, you have made a truly stellar example of an irrational, out of context argument.  I will assume the language barrier is responsible for the rest, so few of us seem to actually speak english these days.

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February 8, 2016 1:19:46 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting psychoak,

     'What's so damned despicable about this debacle is MS citing 'security concerns' with previous OSes. Several tech writers have denounced this move as scare tactics and quite dishonest. The truth is, MS wants everybody using Win 10, and will stop at nothing to make that happen. Well I have some bad news for MS, I'm switching to a Linux OS when support for Win 8.1 is taken off the table".



This is talk, entirely. Full support for Windows 7 is over, as scheduled. They are no longer supporting new hardware, just as they did with every previous iteration, and are only doing security updates for the duration of extended support, just as they did with every previous iteration.



When Microsoft released XP with SP2, they included countless drivers for hardware that came out post release, their automatic updates included these optional drivers as well. Having the SP2 disk made the typical installation much easier because many devices simply wouldn't work until you got your disk out or went online to fix them. It did not mean the drivers didn't exist, you simply had to go to those third parties to get them. Anyone that releases major hardware in the next several years, and doesn't release a Windows 7 driver, is committing suicide. The only thing happening is what always has, Microsoft wont be going through them, verifying their stability, and adding them to the update packages.

So what you're saying here vis that support for Win 7 has already ended, that it won't work on new hardware? 

What I read is that MS is saying that Win 7 won't run on PCs with Skylake or later CPUs, which sort of suggests some collaboration between it and Intel to exclude previous OSes to Win 10.  If that is the case, then there is surely some dodgy dealings going on.  The point was/is that Microsoft is claiming security concerns with pre-10 OSes [such as Win 7] running on Skylake processors [other new hardware], and therefore would be disabled.  The truth is, there need not be any security risks/concerns with Win 7 or 8.1.  It is just another of MS' tactics to corral everyone into its walled garden.

As for companies releasing Win 7 - 8.1 drivers, I hope you're right.  However, I have seen companies like Creative discontinue support for some hardware on some OSes.... and after all, MS does want Win 10 running on as many PCs as it can... if not all.   Like I said, I hope you're right, because people should have the choice/right to run Win 7 if they want.

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February 8, 2016 4:31:17 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

MS is saying they wont support Windows 7, not that it wont run.  They can claim that it wont run, but they really have nothing to do with what hardware Windows 7 does or doesn't run on.  Their current prevarications on what they'll support or wont support are irrelevant if Intel still puts out compatible firmware and drivers for a new chipset.  Intel will continue to do so until there is not enough demand to make it worthwhile and they don't have to worry about not selling chipsets because some old fart still has 7.

 

As far as I know, XP hasn't been supported by Intel since 2011, and Vista is already by the wayside as well, but these are Intel's decisions, not Microsoft's.  It's simply not their call to make.

 

Extended support is down to security fixes, they weren't going to be troubleshooting someone's driver issues to begin with.  If they actually do end up getting caught making deals with companies to obsolete peoples software, they'll both hang themselves legally for defrauding purchasers with forced upgrades.  It would be very messy for Microsoft, that's the kind of shit that ends companies.

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February 8, 2016 4:37:39 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

What bothers me is that MS makes semi-true/semi-false statements, engages in 'accidental downloads', the current GWX panel deception, and updates without description or misleading descriptions.

Worse? There's nothing wrong with W7 anymore than with XP. They all could have evolved in orderly steps from less to more sophisticated...and it all could have been done the same way as now, via Windows Update...although imperfect. At least W10 is making that part easy.

The lie that W10 is more secure than W7...bothers me as well. There are so many insecure machines/the net...and even security software itself which make machines less secure via the software update mechanisms and 'elevation of privileges', and the "tools" they produce (as well as browser extensions) [here] that I ask how in hell can anyone claim this OS is more secure than that?

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February 8, 2016 8:39:40 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting psychoak,

As far as I know, XP hasn't been supported by Intel since 2011, and Vista is already by the wayside as well, but these are Intel's decisions, not Microsoft's.

I don't believe that to be true. While it may not be exerting pressure, such as was exerted on PC manufacturers when 8 came out not to offer 7, or else. There has to be communication between the various vendors to ensure that the end product performs as expected. Intel primarily provides chips for new PC/laptops/mobile applications. Why devote production lines to make a chip for an older model not used by their clients? So, MS decisions about what they offer has impacted vendors up and down the line, including Intel. Cause and effect.

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February 8, 2016 8:43:14 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

^^^  What Doc said.

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February 8, 2016 9:49:10 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Daiwa: Until I can't.

If that's the case the fact that I'm already running W10 would seem to be irrelevant. Then there's the roll back option. I can go back to 8.1 and that makes MS's efforts futile at best IMO. 

This may be OT: Ran across this article on ZDNet.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-subscriptions-arent-happening-heres-why/

If it is...apologies.

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February 8, 2016 12:23:58 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Uvah...not to worry. OT is the rule on my posts.

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February 8, 2016 2:15:47 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting psychoak,

MS is saying they wont support Windows 7, not that it wont run.

That's not what I remember reading.  What I read [I believe from a link at majorgeeks] suggested that Skylake processors and motherboards would not support Win 7 due to security concerns.... not that I give a toss anyhow.  It's not likely I'll be getting a Skylake CPU anytime soon, and I no longer have a copy of Win 7 to put on a PC of any kind.

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February 8, 2016 2:41:22 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

No, MS just crippled a portion of the support lifespan of Win7 on Skylake beginning some time in 2017, after which only 'really' important security updates (in the sole discretion of MS) will be offered for Win7 on those Skylake rigs, up through the scheduled end-of-life-cycle in 2020.  So, Win7 will 'run' on a Skylake rig until 2020 if you want it to, just might be dodgy from a security or driver standpoint, whatever that may mean.  Going forward, they're not going to let OEM's put Win7 on Sklyake or newer chips (except for the specific MFR's they've 'whitelisted' for the crippled support after 2017) most likely with the consent & collusion of the MFR's, IMO - mutual self-interests are being served.

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February 8, 2016 4:19:43 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Windows 7 is in extended support, so it's already down to security updates only.  It sounds more like they're talking about some people getting more than just security updates, not that they're trying to shaft users beyond what they pledged in terms of the support schedule.

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February 8, 2016 6:52:56 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

I still seem to get a fair number of non-security updates offered up.  But as a practical matter, the security updates are the only ones of importance.  I saw something about MS stopping generic peripheral driver updates at some point for Win7 on newer hardware, which may be the extent of 'crippling' support.  With the hardware rapidly outrunning Win7, it may just be a matter of 'unanticipated asynchrony'.

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February 9, 2016 1:24:34 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

I looked for the article I read regarding this but can't find it again; however, it did suggest that Win 7 would not run on Skylake and later tech after 2017.  The article said that important drivers and software would no longer be issued by MS or its partners, thus causing Win 7 to malfunction and needing to shut down.... which I imagine is getting BSODs all the time.  That, I also imagine, would make the OS inoperable/unuseable.

Anyway, that's what I remember!  Whether it is correct or not, I don't know, but the article was supposedly quoting sources at Microsoft.  In any event, it doesn't affect me, though I do feel for those Win 7 users who don't want to 'downgrade' to Win 10.

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February 9, 2016 9:16:17 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

I would think that the OS would continue to run fine and continue to work with existing (working) peripherals, it just might not be able to run some new peripherals or video cards, etc., for lack of drivers, things like that.  I doubt you'll simply fire it up one day and find MS has actively sabotaged your rig to a BSOD.  MS may be dumb in many ways, but not in that way (I hope).

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February 9, 2016 9:28:03 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting Daiwa,

I doubt you'll simply fire it up one day and find MS has actively sabotaged your rig to a BSOD.

They can't.

Consumer protection laws don't allow it.

 

So much of this hysteria is somewhere between guesswork and supposition.  None of it is based in reality.

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February 9, 2016 9:47:01 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting starkers,

MS had better not pull that forced update shit with 8.1 or I'll disconnect it fom the net and switch to Linux for my primary OS somewhat sooner.  I won't be bullied into accepting crap I either want or need... I don't give a fech hòw big Microsoft thinks it is.

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February 9, 2016 10:27:29 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Daiwa,

I would think that the OS would continue to run fine and continue to work with existing (working) peripherals, it just might not be able to run some new peripherals or video cards, etc., for lack of drivers, things like that. I doubt you'll simply fire it up one day and find MS has actively sabotaged your rig to a BSOD. MS may be dumb in many ways, but not in that way (I hope).

That's what I'm saying.  Win 7 will work/run on existing tech without issue, but not with Skylake and newer tech.  As the article suggests that MS and its partners will not support Win 7 with drivers/firmware on this newer tech, meaning that the OS will fail, presumably because motherboard, graphics card and other important drivers are no longer available.

This doesn't mean that Win 7 will stop running on older hardware.

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February 9, 2016 3:07:19 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

essentially agreed with everything psychoak has posted in this thread.

 

other than that.........the tinfoil is strong in this thread! 

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