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Why The force awakens is as bad as the prequels

By on December 24, 2015 2:20:58 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

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When I first saw the new star wars movie, I had slightly warm feelings towards it, and considered it an ok action movie. But the more time I spent thinking about the film the more negative my opinions on it became. I have now concluded that the movie is as bad as the star wars prequels (most of them at least, episode 1 is probably still worse).

The biggest problems I had with the Star wars prequels are all of the plotholes and the stupid story. I know others also hate on them for having too much CGI but I think that's a fairly subjective opinion and I personally wasn't too bothered by it. For me the real problems were the characters and the plot. And in my opinion, the force awakens is just as bad in this regard. Here are just some examples of what I am talking about:

-The republic forms the resistance to combat the first order. But why? Can't the republic just fight the order as the republic? And speaking  of the republic, how does it even work? Is General Leia in control of it? Is it a democracy? And what about the first order? How powerful is this new empire? How do the politics in this world work? At least during the star wars prequels I understood the context in which all of the fighting was taking place. In this one I have no real clue. 

-Rey takes a giant dump on everything we know about the force by becoming a super powerful jedi that can fly spaceships and beat someone in a lightsaber duel with no prior training and experience whatsoever. It appears that now being a good jedi has nothing to do with personal skill, just having the force turns you into superman! It took Luke Skywalker 3 movies to defeat Darth Vader, but Rey defeats Kylo in her first fight and nearly kills him. But then again, Kylo isn't actually as big a badass as Darth Vader, brings brings us to the next point...

-The new bad guy is pathetic. The actor playing him looks completely out of place and doesn't fit this role at all. He looks like he belongs in a teenage comedy. The actual character also acts more like a spoiled and a whiny brat rather than as an actual badass. The moment he took of his mask I could no longer take him seriously.

-Lots of pointless fan service. For no reason.

-The Starkiller base is extremely stupid. They could not come up with an original threat so they just created a new version of the Death star that is like 100x bigger (because the old death star was so small right?). In the original movies, the construction of the death star was hailed as a massive accomplishment. And that was in-spite of the fact that the empire had a whole galaxy worth of resources to build it with. How was the first order which is suppose to be merely a shadow of the old empire able to build something that is dozens of times bigger than the death star? This is a giant plothole so obvious it's painful. Oh! And it appears that they learned NOTHING from the first 2 death stars, because of course the good guys just need to destroy a single weak spot to kill it. Because screw being creative.

-How did Han Solo find the main characters so quickly after they left the planet? They just so happened to be nearby? The fact the Falcon had a tracking device on it doesn't explain how they could show up so quickly.

Those are just examples of SOME of the dumb things in this film.

The single most common excuse I hear for this film is that it's fun as an action film. But can't you also say that about the prequels? I honestly think the only reason people are saying this movie is way better than the prequels is because hating on the prequels has become a fad, "Oh yea, at least it isn't as bad as the prequels hurr dur".

Well, it really isn't much better honestly. I would even go as far as to say that episode 3 is better.

Do you share my sentiment?

 

 

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January 17, 2016 1:47:08 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Rey fights very well with her staff/lightsaber, is terrific pilot, mechanic, can use force just like that (mind trick, lightsaber grab from a distance). Luke or Anakin were not that good.

FA is recycled New Hope. Phantom Menace brought memorable additions to the universe: Droids, Darth Maul, saber staff. From FA there is only Kylo Ren's saber.

 

 

 

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January 17, 2016 3:43:56 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Luke was playing farmer with the sci-fi equivalent of a 4 wheeler, yet could pilot star fighters and block laser shots without seeing them after hours of training.  I don't know about you, but I actually live on a farm and ride a 4 wheeler, I sure as hell can't fly a fighter jet, or do that shit with a sword even if I wasn't wearing a blinder.

 

If you ignore the someone beat me with a hammer it's so obvious plot twist coming, that reveals Rey is Luke's daughter and has been previously trained, then sure, she's unreasonably good and it just ruins the whole movie.  It's still not Jar Jar.  It's like they thought C-3PO wasn't annoying enough and went on an epic quest to create the ultimate irritant.

 

Most of the droid action was comic relief, and Darth Maul, with his saber staff, got less screen time than Jar Jar Fucking Binks, then died, leaving us to watch Yodo do amusing, yet annoyingly stupid aerial combat with his equally absurd master.  The entire theater was rolling for the climatic fight scene, an epic improvement over over people roid raging over Jar Jar, but not exactly high theater.

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January 17, 2016 6:24:14 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting psychoak,

Most of the droid action was comic relief

One short squat one...and one tall thin one....

Laurel and Hardy, anyone?....

Neither was a realistic interpretation of what 'should' have been a robot.

One could do 4/5ths of fuck-all...and the other was simply a stilted gay arthritic academy award [someone was dreaming].

Light sabres? ..... Did future history kind of forget 'never take a knife to a gun fight'?

The only reason the entire franchise still exists is......the franchise....

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January 17, 2016 11:30:55 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Saw it today 3D IMAX.  Entertaining but without as much of the droll wit of the original, of which it was a total re-hash, minus the good/evil tension of the original.  Still enjoyed it, though.  Left a lot of opportunities for another 'mequel' or two to fill in the blanks.  YMMV.

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January 18, 2016 8:27:58 AM from Star Control Forums Star Control Forums

Fans can be very Dogmatic in their views of film series. I like the movie. I was fortunate to see the original series in the theatre when I was a kid. For those who actually read the books and watch the movies it can be very screwy. The post Return of the Jedi books has the solos with three kids with different names and a whole string of events that didn't happen in the movie. You can choose to be offended by this and other discrepancies in the movie OR you can enjoy the spirit of the movie. This is a revival of a classic series that bridges generation gaps. Star Trek movie series has seen the same type of fanaticism.  With the new Star Control game being made I am sure that there will be SC Purists out there losing their mind plot picking, dogging the SC. It is what it is and they are who they are. I say enjoy it for what it is and relax, it's going to be made.

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January 18, 2016 9:21:43 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Let your HATE run free! It will make you stronger...

 

Only your HATE will make you overcome the ugly mouse and its minions!

 

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January 18, 2016 10:06:07 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Ugly mouse?  I just do not pay enough attention to culture, so many things are over my head.

 

The Star Trek series has some serious issues outside of fan grievances, similar issues, which hopefully means JJ not doing either of them will rectify such issues.  Since Nemesis, the plot device of choice has been saving Earth from a super ship capable of laying waste to the "Enterprise" with little trouble.  Nemesis, being the worst of the TNG movies, far worse than Generations, an absolute dud of a follow up to The Undiscovered Country, is garbage to start with, it doesn't need recycled.

 

The second Trek movie was on par with the Star Wars prequels, raping my childhood memories in some vain attempt to re-imagine what is at worst the second best Trek film, while pissing all over the canon and using that cheap ass super ship for a plot device once again.  Looked at in a bubble, it could have been a decent movie, but in perspective it was just ripping things off, and doing so tastelessly, with no regard for the foundation.

 

I could ignore the idiocy in the first one, my only serious gripe about it was all the fucking lens flares.  I'm in danger of breaking things if I start in on the idiocy of adding lens flares to everything, exaggerating the fact that you're watching everything through a fucking camera.  It's right up there with 3D movies, that's one epic sucker gimmick, give yourself a headache so you can warp your perspective for a couple hours to pretend you couldn't tell depth in a regular movie to start with...

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January 18, 2016 10:53:55 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting SavageMind1,

Fans can be very Dogmatic in their views of film series. I like the movie. I was fortunate to see the original series in the theatre when I was a kid.

Yes, I saw the first three in the theater when they were first released.  They were a lot of fun at the time.  Now, understandably, they are a bit dated.  I think the main problem with Star Wars is it seemed to have the potential for greatness in the way the Lord of the Rings Trilogy is truly great, but the film makers have never fully embraced it.  I haven't read the books, so I don't know; maybe the original stories don't have that kind of potential?  What's clear is many people have WANTED the Star Wars films to be epic and have been sorely disappointed.  I had my hopes up somewhat when I heard rumors that the franchise changing hands implied that Star Wars TFA was going to rise to a new level.  I was surprised at the extent to which it was a rehash of the first film.  Oh well, as you say enjoy it for what it is and carry on.

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January 18, 2016 12:41:52 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting psychoak,

Ugly mouse?  I just do not pay enough attention to culture, so many things are over my head.

 

The Star Trek series has some serious issues outside of fan grievances, similar issues, which hopefully means JJ not doing either of them will rectify such issues.  Since Nemesis, the plot device of choice has been saving Earth from a super ship capable of laying waste to the "Enterprise" with little trouble.  Nemesis, being the worst of the TNG movies, far worse than Generations, an absolute dud of a follow up to The Undiscovered Country, is garbage to start with, it doesn't need recycled.

 

The second Trek movie was on par with the Star Wars prequels, raping my childhood memories in some vain attempt to re-imagine what is at worst the second best Trek film, while pissing all over the canon and using that cheap ass super ship for a plot device once again.  Looked at in a bubble, it could have been a decent movie, but in perspective it was just ripping things off, and doing so tastelessly, with no regard for the foundation.

 

I could ignore the idiocy in the first one, my only serious gripe about it was all the fucking lens flares.  I'm in danger of breaking things if I start in on the idiocy of adding lens flares to everything, exaggerating the fact that you're watching everything through a fucking camera.  It's right up there with 3D movies, that's one epic sucker gimmick, give yourself a headache so you can warp your perspective for a couple hours to pretend you couldn't tell depth in a regular movie to start with...

 

I am not holding my breath that lack of JJ is somehow going to mean improvement. The next Star Trek is directed by Justin Chin apparently - therefore i would not expect something vastly different. 

Anyway, i dont think JJ Star Treks were terrible. At least the first was quite decent IMHO. They just did not feel like old Treks. I considered that to be a bad thing at first, but after watching the latest Star Wars, i changed my opinion...cause hey, even if they were not overly original, at least they were not carbon copies of previous movies. And they actually were meant to be reboots, not a sequel, like Star Wars, so it would have been more understandable, if they were.

Regarding Nemesis and Generations, where is the hate coming from? WTF am i reading? Granted, Nemesis was not great...the best part of it IMO was the space battle with Scimitar - which is good enough reason to watch the movie by itself, even if anything ele you consider to be trash. Generations was more than decent, to me pretty much on par with Undiscovered Country. First Contact pretty much the same. Ultimately, none of the Trek movies was ever as good as any of the shows, but TOS-era movies were definitely not better than TNG ones... even if Undiscovered Country is the best of the lot. At least not to me.

I agree with the lens flares BS though. Star Trek is not even the worst, try watching Total Recall remake/reboot. Now that movie took it to absurd levels.

Yeah, and fuck 3D. Not giving me headaches personally, but i have trouble to see it at all.

 

 

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January 18, 2016 1:15:52 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

The best part of Nemesis was indeed the space battle, with the absurdly powerful super ship that fires while cloaked, has a perfect cloak, a world ending biological weapon, enough firepower to one shot the Enterprise D, or end an entire fleet by itself, and massive quantities of strike craft that were never used.

 

The rest of it was... irritating.  It was a trainwreck of absurdity, starting with that ridiculous romp in an ATV, as if transporters didn't exist, and culminating in Data's infuriatingly stupid suicide, set phaser to go off by itself, beam out together.

 

Generations wasn't too bad, aside from killing Kirk, but can you really compare the plot to it's predecessor?

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January 18, 2016 2:15:35 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting psychoak,

Ugly mouse?  I just do not pay enough attention to culture, so many things are over my head.

Star Wars is now owned by Disney, i.e. Mickey Mouse.

And yeah, screw 3D.  For TFA, I waited an extra 2 hours just so I could watch one of the few 2D showings of it.

 

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January 18, 2016 2:35:24 PM from Star Control Forums Star Control Forums

Quoting Timmaigh,


I am not holding my breath that lack of JJ is somehow going to mean improvement. The next Star Trek is directed by Justin Chin apparently - therefore i would not expect something vastly different. 

Anyway, i dont think JJ Star Treks were terrible. At least the first was quite decent IMHO. They just did not feel like old Treks. I considered that to be a bad thing at first, but after watching the latest Star Wars, i changed my opinion...cause hey, even if they were not overly original, at least they were not carbon copies of previous movies. And they actually were meant to be reboots, not a sequel, like Star Wars, so it would have been more understandable, if they were.

Regarding Nemesis and Generations, where is the hate coming from? WTF am i reading? Granted, Nemesis was not great...the best part of it IMO was the space battle with Scimitar - which is good enough reason to watch the movie by itself, even if anything ele you consider to be trash. Generations was more than decent, to me pretty much on par with Undiscovered Country. First Contact pretty much the same. Ultimately, none of the Trek movies was ever as good as any of the shows, but TOS-era movies were definitely not better than TNG ones... even if Undiscovered Country is the best of the lot. At least not to me.

I agree with the lens flares BS though. Star Trek is not even the worst, try watching Total Recall remake/reboot. Now that movie took it to absurd levels.

Yeah, and fuck 3D. Not giving me headaches personally, but i have trouble to see it at all.
  
 
A voice of reason. 
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January 23, 2016 9:44:21 AM from Star Control Forums Star Control Forums

I used to be a huge Star Wars expanded universe nut up until it effectively died for me somewhere around 2012. They decided to ignore all that and start the new film with fresh continuity. That annoyed me enough to kill all the hype and I went to see it with pretty fairly attitude, with some of "it better be good to be worth it". I came out from seeing it reasonably entertained, thinking that it's not great like episodes 4 and 5, but not bad like episodes 1 and 2 either. Fairly fun with some flaws. Good watch if you can turn your brain off. I remember thinking that I'd have to wait for later for my final verdict because I had similar initial reaction for the new Star Trek, but it became more "meh" for me in the following months. Seems like similar thing is happening with this one.

TFA is like a pretty box with nothing inside. Seems appealing at the surface, but it really gives you nothing. The most substantial thing this movie gave me was new appeciation of Lucas' work, yes even the prequels. He might have failed with them, but at least he was trying. This isn't trying but just rehashing old stuff, like the media seems to love doing in these days. Same old Star Wars, same old plot, same old ships, same old locations (albeit with different names), same old Han Solo. The new characters are nicely acted, but too poorly conceived and developed to make us care about them. Well, Poe Dameron might have been cool with more screen time, but they'd more likely ruined him too somehow.

Right, those were my main points. I'll comment OP's points with more detail now, as I feel entitled to do as a former Star Wars geek. Feel free to ignore

- Yes, we are given little information about the Republic, First Order and Resistance and have to deduce the rest. That doesn't bother me because I'm keen to guess, but they will probably go into more detail in sequels, and I will be slightly upset when my beloved theories turn out to be wrong. For the record this is my deduction: The Republic and First Order were in a cold war situation mainly because the Republic was too cowardly/lacked political will to attack and First Order was too weak to do so, at least until they built their superweapon. The parties within the Republic that wanted to do something about the Order formed the Resistance to wage a proxy war for them. The Republic officially denies everything, but supports the Resistance.

- Yes, Rey is a Mary Sue. This is too bad because I was initially inclined to like her. When her Mary Sue abilities started to pile up, I simply couldn't. She's good at everything. When she tries something she's never done before she inconsequentially fails once and then does it perfectly every time. All the good guys seem to like her right away. She never has to learn their trust or anything.

- Kylo Ren is actually pretty interesting character if you consider the whole Han, Leia and their messed up son aspect. However, it was completely idiotic to make him the primary antagonist. I liked him because he's basically Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus from the old expanded universe, albeit whinier and more insecure. Rey beat him so handily that it will take a lot of effort to build him up as a credible threat again. Might be better to just scrap him for some new bad guy.

- Yes to pointless fan service. As I was watching it I thought they were so busy paying homage that they didn't have room for a movie of their own.

- Yes, the Starkiller Base isn't the stupidest superweapon I have ever seen, but it's still pretty high up there mainly because of bad case of "sci-fi writers have no sense of scale". I don't expect realism in a Star Wars movie at all, but this killed my suspension of disbelief a few times. What is worse, it seems to be there just because the writers think there has to be a Death Star. It doesn't have the impact the superweapon that destroys entire star systems should have. Sure it destroys the Republic capital, but no one cares. We get a shot of Han looking at the sky (at completely different star system, mind you) and say "It's the Republic!" but that's it. Then it threatens the Resistance base with little tension and gets destroyed by Poe almost off-screen.

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February 26, 2016 1:52:37 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

We get a shot of Han looking at the sky (at completely different star system, mind you) and say "It's the Republic!" but that's it. Then it threatens the Resistance base with little tension and gets destroyed by Poe almost off-screen.

 

That's completely expected though.  It's a very tiny galaxy that you can travel across in a couple weeks at 1.5c.

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February 26, 2016 3:46:12 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

I saw TFA back on Christmas, and I wasn't impressed. TFA is a decent enough film, but as a sequel to RotJ it was terrible. TFA somehow managed to rehash ANH and try to retell the OT again 30 years later, without using any existing locations and incorporating two of the worst plot points from the EU. The opening crawl was like a dagger to my heart. Of course, all of my enthusiasm vanished with "Legends", so TFA was the only chance the new canon had of convincing me to give it a chance, because the EU meant something to me and felt like a worthy continuation of the Saga, for the most part.

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February 26, 2016 11:23:29 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

I though we'd flooged this horse past dead..... beyond ressurrection and into the depths of Hades. 

I guess some people are braver then others.

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February 26, 2016 11:26:03 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Didn't you just post in the global warming thread?

 

Star Wars arguments are often rabid and interminable.

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February 26, 2016 1:01:27 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

^^^  Heh, heh. 

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February 26, 2016 1:10:41 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting starkers,

flooged

Being the operative word.

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February 26, 2016 2:30:59 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

[quote who="Uvah" reply="95" id="3622268"]

Quoting starkers,

flooged



Being the operative word.
[/quote

]Yeah,caught me on another typo.... double tapped the o instead of the g.  Oh well ! 

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February 28, 2016 11:24:50 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Thou shalt not floog the dead horse...

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February 29, 2016 2:54:08 AM from Offworld Trading Company Forums Offworld Trading Company Forums

Quoting Jafo,

Thou shalt not floog the dead horse...

 

Ill fluuug all the dead horses all i want! 

 

And their not nearly dead as long as the time period it took Han to try out the crossbow gun!

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