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Match debut: alternatives

By OMGIN1 on January 30, 2012 7:53:00 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

OMGIN1

Join Date 12/2011
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For some reason, most people buy Monks/Banded+Scaled and rush to have that battle royale at mid. Why? Maybe I miss the rationale. If so, please do elaborate.

Once I had stopped reproducing the age-old debuts and started thinking independently (well, watching yellow_belly and nnnils kind of gave me an idea, too), I've begun to do the following:

1. Buy Monks.

2. Attach them to the teammates as required.

3. Take BotF, tech Heal.

4. Type offensive remarks into All chat.

5. Wait until mark 0:45, when I have 400 gold, buy Scalemail. By this point, enemy creeps have reached the corner tower.

6. Begin to move towards Fortitude/Brilliance flag. 

7. Reach it just in time to get the wave exp. Sometimes, some gold, too.

The justification for this alternative is: (1) I miss no exp; (2) Sed's early game becomes exceptionally strong (it wasn't weak before, by any means): now she's almost unpushable 1v1, has additional protection from gay minion builds and tower Rooks, and can push those corner towers at level 1 very efficiently (Normal towers, of course).

 

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Reply #1
OMGIN1
Join Date 12/2011
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January 31, 2012 5:14:37 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

All right, we had a game, where Darkli (who is usually obsessed with creeps and exp -- in fact, missing the waves is about the only thing she can get angry about during the match) explained why taking the mid flag in the beginning is so desirable: the team that doesn't have this flag under control will fall behind in levels.

The truth, I'm afraid, is much less dramatic. Some figures: capping the mid flag in the beginning gives 132 exp. Killing the first creepwave with the flag grants 198 exp (without the flag, it's 165 exp). That's a net gain of 165 exp if you rush mid for a battle royale at the start and are successful. Now, consider the fact you need 1400 exp to get, for example, to level 5 (at which you typically reach WR 3 and shop for the first time in an even game on Cataract). Also, don't forget the mid flag gets capped anyway by the mana soloists, so it's not your disdvantage will stay relevant for long.

So, what are the pros and the cons?

Pros of rushing mid:

  • You get 165 exp. That's about it.

Pros of staying at base until mark 0:45:

  • Getting Scalemail results in Sedna being unpushable early game by any DG, save Rook. Being unpushable = permanent hp flag control.
  • Getting Scalemail results in an ability to destroy the corner tower (if Normal) before the first trip to base.
  • Not rushing mid results in full mana and hp, while the typical result of winning the mid confrontation is being at half mana and hp at level 1.

 

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Reply #2
nnnils
Join Date 01/2010
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January 31, 2012 10:52:59 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OMGIN1,
reply 1
The truth, I'm afraid, is much less dramatic.

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Reply #3
awuffleablehedgie
Join Date 04/2009
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January 31, 2012 11:16:08 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

the reason is because it sets up flag swaps better. 

UB v UB mana side the UB that starts with EXP flag will rotate the creeps such that 2 out of 3 waves are killed with the EXP flag. And this will continue  like this unless the other UB forces a conflict that disrupts flag rotation. 

So, for mana side, it's +1/3rd flag cap, and +20% EXP every creep wave. This results in the EXP side UB rapidly gaining an advantage over his lane matchup and eventually shutting him down entirely. This isn't something that's known popularily, but it' something i've picked up playing with Orcun, and I'mpretty sure he knows and that he why he fits like a crazy person for mid. 

 

For mana side champs that aren't interested in just flag rotation (queen, tb, rook, who will all be pushing that corner tower more, rook being the biggest issue), or champs that are going to try to force a large level 2 conflict, going start to mana/hp side will help establish that early dominance. 

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Reply #4
OMGIN1
Join Date 12/2011
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January 31, 2012 11:55:59 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

So, the implication is, basically, that it's easier to adjust the exp flag rotation cycle to your needs if you rush mid in the beginning?

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Reply #5
awuffleablehedgie
Join Date 04/2009
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January 31, 2012 2:01:05 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

yep, and that advantage is greater than the "free' hp flag. Esp, in UB v UB.

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Reply #6
OMGIN1
Join Date 12/2011
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January 31, 2012 2:50:00 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Very interesting... That's rather untrivial (at least for those who don't solo mana much!).

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Reply #7
doggu
Join Date 03/2007
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January 31, 2012 3:52:10 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Level 1 mid stomp is a classic sometimes...

Guess it also helps yellow flagging the mid if you can get it straight out... Most good players won't let this happen though I admit.

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Reply #8
OMGIN1
Join Date 12/2011
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January 31, 2012 3:59:03 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I love people that use gadget (-500 gold) to get a kill on a level 1 target (+600 gold) during the mid battle, and are very proud of themselves afterwards.

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Reply #9
awuffleablehedgie
Join Date 04/2009
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January 31, 2012 4:47:46 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

sounds like someone's unhappy about being outplayed

 

Protip: UG counters CoN

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Reply #10
OMGIN1
Join Date 12/2011
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January 31, 2012 4:55:25 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

No, I just think it's not worth it at level 1.

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Reply #11
JUSThaveFUN
Join Date 08/2009
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February 1, 2012 10:13:39 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

It's all about hp flag guys, whoever controls hp flag controls all flags, that is if the matchup is even.

Numbers are not everything!

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Reply #12
JUSThaveFUN
Join Date 08/2009
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February 1, 2012 10:16:56 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OMGIN1,
reply 8
I love people that use gadget (-500 gold) to get a kill on a level 1 target (+600 gold) during the mid battle, and are very proud of themselves afterwards.

the math is not that simple. you lose gold income while dead, xp waves, map control, and moral (and assists?!). I think it's very worth if you can pull it off and can snowball. I'm famous for my sigil snowball which has the same reward.

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Reply #13
OMG_ZEX
Join Date 08/2008
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February 1, 2012 11:20:10 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting JUSThaveFUN,
reply 12

Quoting OMGIN1, reply 8I love people that use gadget (-500 gold) to get a kill on a level 1 target (+600 gold) during the mid battle, and are very proud of themselves afterwards.

the math is not that simple. you lose gold income while dead, xp waves, map control, and moral (and assists?!). I think it's very worth if you can pull it off and can snowball. I'm famous for my sigil snowball which has the same reward.

Famous? no noobs zengod 

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Reply #14
pacov
Join Date 02/2008
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February 1, 2012 11:58:24 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting JUSThaveFUN,
reply 12
the math is not that simple. you lose gold income while dead, xp waves, map control, and moral (and assists?!). I think it's very worth if you can pull it off and can snowball. I'm famous for my sigil snowball which has the same reward.

that said, in expert games no one does this rubbish.  The reason?  Not worth it.  I think we can easily agree that a level 1 or 2 kill isn't exactly going to impact the game in a major way if that's the only kill for 40 minutes (eg, its really an expert game).  So really, its just in the same category as popping BOTF as a "fake sigil" when needed at the start.  No expert will get fooled.  And if they do, they won't lose morale - they will probably just laugh, type FU in chat,  and be more determined.  So really, if you get the kill, its not a real loss in gold (+100 from the start of the game).  If you die, you are down like 250/100 or so XP (crazy sleepy math).  The only person taking a risk is the guy dumping the money into the gadget.  He's out 500 if he fails. Eg he's gambling that he can spend 500 gold to gain about a 250 gold adv + some xp over his opponent.  Anyway, mathmatically speaking, it would be worth it 100% of the time if you could pull it off 100% of the time and shop at appropriate intervals.  That said, this is something i could pull off against expert folks like 1/15 times or so (and only if I randomly throw it in).  Still - fun if you pull that crap in a tourney to sass other pros

I agree that its a different story in non expert games.  Those moody folks often decide they are doomed when that happens.

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Reply #15
OMGIN1
Join Date 12/2011
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February 2, 2012 2:11:52 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

No expert will get fooled.  And if they do, they won't lose morale - they will probably just laugh, type FU in chat,  and

invalidate the game.


PS: On the same topic. Recent conversation with Darkli: "So, Julia, is player X as skilled as his % imply?" Darkli: "Well... He invalidates like a pro."

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Reply #16
JUSThaveFUN
Join Date 08/2009
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February 2, 2012 2:41:02 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting pacov,
reply 14

Quoting JUSThaveFUN, reply 12the math is not that simple. you lose gold income while dead, xp waves, map control, and moral (and assists?!). I think it's very worth if you can pull it off and can snowball. I'm famous for my sigil snowball which has the same reward.

that said, in expert games no one does this rubbish.  The reason?  Not worth it.  I think we can easily agree that a level 1 or 2 kill isn't exactly going to impact the game in a major way if that's the only kill for 40 minutes (eg, its really an expert game).  So really, its just in the same category as popping BOTF as a "fake sigil" when needed at the start.  No expert will get fooled.  And if they do, they won't lose morale - they will probably just laugh, type FU in chat,  and be more determined.  So really, if you get the kill, its not a real loss in gold (+100 from the start of the game).  If you die, you are down like 250/100 or so XP (crazy sleepy math).  The only person taking a risk is the guy dumping the money into the gadget.  He's out 500 if he fails. Eg he's gambling that he can spend 500 gold to gain about a 250 gold adv + some xp over his opponent.  Anyway, mathmatically speaking, it would be worth it 100% of the time if you could pull it off 100% of the time and shop at appropriate intervals.  That said, this is something i could pull off against expert folks like 1/15 times or so (and only if I randomly throw it in).  Still - fun if you pull that crap in a tourney to sass other pros

I agree that its a different story in non expert games.  Those moody folks often decide they are doomed when that happens.
that's why i get a sigil instead, it reacts instantly and you will need that sigil at all times in the game anyways:) but at really high lvl games the health armor items are usually better. But in the end, it's all about mind games;)

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Reply #17
LordPoekelfleisch
Join Date 03/2008
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February 2, 2012 8:46:25 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting pacov,
reply 14

If you die, you are down like 250/100 or so XP (crazy sleepy math).  The only person taking a risk is the guy dumping the money into the gadget.  He's out 500 if he fails.

I'd say it's not as simple as this. If you manage to get a kill at xp flag, chances are that you get the kill and assists, leading up to an early advantage of up to around 800 gold and a short 2v3. If you don't get a kill (and only use it for a kill if youre almost certain you will get that kill) you still got a 2k hp potion for 500 (large hp potion is 400 and 3k health. But in the beginning in a lot of cases you wont be able to get full use of the 3k) that can be used on yourself or on another team mate, allowing you to longer keep control of flags.

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Reply #18
pacov
Join Date 02/2008
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February 2, 2012 9:14:33 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Think you missed a little of what I was saying here though (or perhaps I communicated it like crap).  It's a gamble and of course you can say its worth it if you get a kill.  I'm saying its not worth it based on the limited number of times it works for a kill in games with experienced player.  Sure, its a health pot as well - I just don't find it all that viable practically speaking.

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Reply #19
JUSThaveFUN
Join Date 08/2009
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February 2, 2012 11:54:29 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting pacov,
reply 18
Think you missed a little of what I was saying here though (or perhaps I communicated it like crap).  It's a gamble and of course you can say its worth it if you get a kill.  I'm saying its not worth it based on the limited number of times it works for a kill in games with experienced player.  Sure, its a health pot as well - I just don't find it all that viable practically speaking.
Everything you do is a gamble in this game. Buying  health items and/or a mana items at the start are way more predictable than an early enemy gadget or sigil. It comes down to the way who played his strategy the best. That's why I do not count out cheesy strategies. They are part of the game just as late game strategies.

some like'm some don't but they can all win or fail

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Reply #20
JUSThaveFUN
Join Date 08/2009
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February 2, 2012 12:03:03 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting LordPoekelfleisch,
reply 17
I'd say it's not as simple as this. If you manage to get a kill at xp flag, chances are that you get the kill and assists, leading up to an early advantage of up to around 800 gold and a short 2v3. If you don't get a kill (and only use it for a kill if youre almost certain you will get that kill) you still got a 2k hp potion for 500 (large hp potion is 400 and 3k health. But in the beginning in a lot of cases you wont be able to get full use of the 3k) that can be used on yourself or on another team mate, allowing you to longer keep control of flags.

I would also add, you put the enemy on tilt. Which is a very important aspect of professional gaming. You cannot commit against an enemy that might have a gadget or some other health pots without having them yourself. Especially in team fights.

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Reply #21
OMGIN1
Join Date 12/2011
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February 2, 2012 12:23:24 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

It seems most ppl don't like my debut strategy... I get shouted on regularly ("OMG, are you afk?!"), but at this stage I only take nnnils' remarks seriously, so w/e. However, as far as results are considered... At early levels, I can 1v2 and win vs squishy DGs (say, DA + non-BotF Oak) while holding hp flag. It also helps a lot with towers, making the early tower pushing a very safe business. I admit I have probably exaggerated its effectiveness in this respect in the OP, but it does add a lot of safety.

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Reply #22
nnnils
Join Date 01/2010
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February 2, 2012 12:29:46 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Another mistake I see many people do:

Consider a 2v2 matchup sed/rook vs ub/rook. THe rooks both go hp flag, sed buys monks and arrives at mid flag first and gets the flag too. Ub usually will be later because hes waiting for the 550 helmet. Now what I see most people do is run to the mana flag with sedna and let ub get mid flag. Instead they should wait and see what ub does. If hes trying to get mid flag --> yellow him (youre stronger than him), if hes going to mana flag then go mana too and get the flag. You should now have all 3 flags considering your rook wins the hp engagement cuz hes got a monk.

This principle works in many other circumstances too...

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Reply #23
awuffleablehedgie
Join Date 04/2009
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February 2, 2012 2:50:05 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OMGIN1,
reply 21
It seems most ppl don't like my debut strategy... I get shouted on regularly ("OMG, are you afk?!"), but at this stage I only take nnnils' remarks seriously, so w/e. However, as far as results are considered... At early levels, I can 1v2 and win vs squishy DGs (say, DA + non-BotF Oak) while holding hp flag. It also helps a lot with towers, making the early tower pushing a very safe business. I admit I have probably exaggerated its effectiveness in this respect in the OP, but it does add a lot of safety.

I don't doubt it's effective, and it might work out great. It'd be something that I'd have to try to make a judgement call about, and it sounds good on paper.

But, the reasons why I listed is why, I believe, rushing mid is best in any game where it's UB v UB. 

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Reply #24
Elend_Venture
Join Date 10/2010
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March 2, 2012 1:06:57 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Another bonus to first mid capture. Bonus EXP not mentioned when u cap outside flags too. Often you see team 1 capture the mid as enemy goes for outside flags after mid-battle. They will usually have a teammate go for the mid flag AFTER you capped it, decapping it while you go to the creep wave. SO as nnils said one hold back to meet the enemy decapping the mid, BUT stand on it until your teammates cap the outside flags, then let enemy yellow it and move back in push them off the yellow.

How this is possible: If your team grabs mid first, then one HOLDS the mid, the other 2 will usually hit level 2 with the first creep wave AS they meet their enemy on the flag. Their enemy will not yet be level2 and chances of taking flag is less. Then your teammates grab both mana and health (except where rook is around...) and your teammate on middle now can yellow the unsuspecting enemy trying to cap that mid.

Of course this all changes when one team decides HP flag is more important than EXP. And if you're team LIGHT you really don't want the enemy getting a stronghold on hp side (for your gold lane).

Interesting idea for the 400 armor, I wonder if waiting for 400 gloves may have similar advantage for assasins (banded,chainmail,gloves brutality - especially for a poison dagger assasin)

 

I will try some of this and see how it works for non-sedna characters.

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Reply #25
OMGIN1
Join Date 12/2011
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March 3, 2012 5:48:17 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Well, Sedna doesn't have to level as religiously as, say, UB has to. She can afford to be slightly behind her lane opponent. She'll catch up to him a bit later with NR anyway, unless it's an AoE nuker type. That's why I think this debut is actually not worth it for assassins, especially mana-side: they are extremely level-dependent.

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