LORD-ORION

Double basic creep stats rather than doubling their number.  This won't affect MetaImpact balance at all (they still die either way), while keeping the performance impact low.  Maps like Brothers and Ziggurat already run poorly for plenty of people with current creep numbers, and maps like Cataract don't even have enough lane space to allow that many creeps to clash in a line.

Don't know if I agree with removing all xp/gold for higher-level creeps - I'd make them worth the same amount as the basic creeps, so at worst you double your enemies' creep income while getting a lot more mileage out of your creep upgrades than in vanilla Demigod (especially if you increase Angel, Priest, and Catapult base stats at least 50% - Giants are tough enough as-is).

Also, moving the gold income into the citadel upgrades just makes them more absolutely required, and makes it that much more important that you get them immediately at your war rank level up (and makes having a higher war rank than your opponents even more important).

I would suggest increasing the income of the gold mines instead, and settling with a lower cost for the currency citadel upgrades.

Doubling minion stats would not even come remotely close to the same effect as doubling the creeps.

I was thinking maybe bringing minotaurs down to 8, but there really isn't a problem with 10 on cata.

Troop build up is not really a problem because of how easy tower upgrades are to come by.Buy yeah, 4 wave maps are a problem for people with lower procesors and video cards unless they lower detail / resolution.

Money really isn't a problem like this, it is still really hard to fall too far behind in the early WRs because the flag control WR bonus does not kick in until after Gold II.

I guess I should say where this came from.

Basically being in the RoI beta for a week now has brought me in contact with alot of GOOD MOBA players from LoL and HoN. They ABSOLUTELY hate demigod's lane mechanics and would rather gouge their eyes out than play it.

We may love demigod just the way it is, but those MOBAs have a HUGE player base, and this is one aspect in demigod that needs adjusting.

It will also increase the power of sucky demigods who just happen to be excellent at nuking creep waves but not so excellent at fighting demigods.

Just to Just to doublecheck concerns about gold

Acutal Check vs Theory Check

Live Game
26 minute game + laneing + Gold Prod upgrades bought ASAP = 32K gold (no kills)

Calculation
Priests, Angels, Cata and Giants = 448 Gold per wave and one typical wave comes every 30 seconds.

vs

8 extra more gold per second from the citadel than usual for all players (240 gold per wave)

So end game in a 3vs3 its 896 bounty (missing wave) vs 720 (extra gold per second to 3 players)

Of course the gold is piling up more starting at WR 5 and 7... so you'll be further ahead going into the end of a typical game if you are buying gear and not cit upgrades.

Cit upgrade cost of ownership is a bit harder to judge: costs are down, but you need to buy more. eg: If you don't upgrade towers and creeps, you are going to get steam rolled unless you can control your lane.

Also isn't Tribute nice now?

As for XP

It is 238 XP per wave you can farm (10 minotaurs and 4 archers)

Buy now you can you afford XP upgrades and it scales higher.

You'll level less at the end game with all the special units are put in play, but you'll be around level 13/14 at WR 10 if you are buying the XP upgrades.

Note: This didn't just "happen" this way for gold and XP, it was designed mostly this way.

Is it correct? Maybe maybe not, but the XP and Gold acquired curve is smooth now, rather than abruptly increasing at the end of the game.

Yeah, this makes early AoE massively important. Having to base your item purchases entirely around killing creeps early on is going to kill you in the long run.

That's sort of the point, you have to make that choice. You don't have to spec AoE.

When you start having to worry about creeps, there are whole new items and skill trees to consider, rather than tanking to fight demigods.

I agree with hedgie, this hurts no- or low-AOE demigods a lot more.  The ones that have to attack creeps directly are screwed now, and most of those aren't actually the best at killing other demigods.

Doubling creep stats would reverse the equation, making AOE still useful, but not insanely overpowered vs creeps compared to good autoattack damage and regeneration/armor/survivability.  There are simply not enough good AOE items at the low levels to justify a change that completely, massively favors demigods with existing AOE abilities, nor should those already-slightly-gimped demigods need to focus that much more on anti-creep items.

Of these, only the Erebus point is true, although the game's 'anti-creep gear' still leaves quite a lot to be desired.  GS leaves even the most upgraded creeps weak enough for shamblers to finish off in one shot. Any demigod with a strong true AOE (all the ones that hedgie listed) just got that much stronger.

Meanwhile, Warp Area has a fixed number of targets and is not true AOE, Hammer doesn't have a large enough area of effect to kill more than 3 creeps at a time, and Sedna is totally hung out to dry.

Putting all of the gold income on cheap citadel upgrades also has the problem of completely cementing early WR leads.  Again, increase the base income of all gold mines instead, which boosts both initial income and gold-flag income.  Not that gold flags aren't important enough, but at least that makes holding a gold flag at the cost of flag majority a viable strategy (and probably wouldn't change Cataract gameplay much if at all).

I don't really disagree with what you're trying to do, just with one (ok, two) of the methods you're using.  Demigod isn't LoL or HoN, and you can't just translate the creep mechanics from those games wholesale - you have to take into account that DG's strong anti-hero heroes also have the best AoE, almost all of which can one-shot creeps.  This is typically not the case in other MOBAs, so you have to tweak the creep mechanics in such a way as to not totally screw auto-attack- or minion-only demigods.

if this only doubles archers and minos and not the other minions, my argument is "slightly" weaker. 

However, earlier+cheaper Catapults+Giants is still going to tear up DA/Sed/Rook. 

First of all, I like that Mod. Since I play mainly singleplayer, changes are welcome. The AI (enhanced) does it job not too bad but no doubt, even a weak human player could be more challenging (can´t be sure here, but I think so ^^)

Rook does get "gods strength" at rank 5, so I don´t get it, why you say Rook has a cleaving attack at Lvl 8?

I tried it, and cleaning a wave with "gods strength" just worked fine.

It´s also a nice idea to let the income upgrade automatically I think. But I don´t bother buying it anyway.

With an automatic gold upgrade capturing flags and gaining warscore gets more important, doesn´t it? If you get an advancement in warscore it is more likely you get overpowered overall because cleaning creepwaves becomes less important?

But really cool you work on mods, lord-orion, since I really like the crazy-town mod. Keep going!

You always get it, yes, but what matters is WHO gets it.

In the ideal world of MOBA, demigods specced to kill creeps and deny lanes (tank) would not, nor would those built to be anti-demigod (carry). It would need to be a support unit, so they don't beef up on as much gear and render the importance of tank and carry roles. (as in the support unit will be geared lower, so the carry is a threat to them, and to make sure the support unit can't buy gear to be a pseudo tank)

As it is now in a typical game, there is CUR1 and FS1 100% of the time, and that only hurts somebody once at the start of the game, and not really all that badly since creeps are pathetic, so you usually use someone who doesn't rely on gear.

In MOBA 0.1 you MUST get XP 1 (900 gold) get CUR1 (1200 gold) and Priests (1200) is optional, but gives you a pretty big advantage rather than disadvantage now.

Following up right after you ideally must get XP II and Gold II (1200 and 1800)... now you need to start making team decisions.

Because of the number of Minotaurs, Armory, BlackSmith and Tower upgrades are all contenders for purchase too depending on what is happening in the lanes.

I also can't help but notice nobody has downloaded the mod.

You aren't getting it.  There is no 'choice' with getting ANY gold upgrades, because they WILL pay for themselves in a very reasonable amount of time, while massively boosting your teammates' income.  Getting Gold I or Priests isn't a choice - you get Gold I, and then you make back enough to afford Priests again in a matter of minutes, and/or one of your teammates just buys Priests outright.

XP upgrades make sense.  Gold upgrades do not, because they're costing the resource that they give, and at the prices and amounts you have them set to, they're all 100% automatic buys due to payoff time.  Just integrate it into WR and eliminate the useless busywork of buying the upgrades.

Except that you're still ignoring the fact that the best AOE demigods are also the best 'assassin' demigods.  If it were UB, Oak, Erebus, TB etc getting completely screwed by these changes, then you might have a point.  But they don't suffer at all, in fact they become even more ridiculously powerful, because they now no longer need to fear either creeps or other demigods.

There is no way to increase creep numbers without boosting the insane power of the current AOE demigods.  This mod, as you envision it, is not possible without a complete rebalance of every single top-tier demigod, including a completely replacement of half their abilities.

If creep effectiveness vs towers is what's keeping you from increasing hitpoints instead of numbers, then boost tower HP and damage.  If, as you say, the creep upgrades are actually worth getting now, then late-game boosted creeps will have no trouble pushing base-boosted and upgraded towers.  If anything, it will reinforce your main goal, which is make creeps useful, because early-game tower-crunching won't be doable without creep support.

I don't know if you've played LoL or HoN, but the towers are not pushovers in those games, and usually take a coordinated effort between creeps and multiple heroes to finally topple.  In comparison, Demigod towers blow over in a strong breeze.

How is spending 2400 in Cur I and priests any different than someone spending 2400 for Regen and Cur I in the current game?

Even if you are outgeared because you choose to purchase gold when they decided to purchase items, in 3 minutes you're going to have your gold back. At worst you'll be a bit behind in warscore. 

UB doesn't have to walk through the enemy creep wave. He can stand behind his own creeps, or he can also invest in stuff like Post Mortem or Plague. So he does have a choice to do other things (lol I like how you said he has no other options). Also level 15 spit ability.

Leveling up creeps will still be pointless against Oak/TB/Queen/Occulus. 

How are you suggesting Rook, Sedna and DA cope with the increased creep damage? DA and Sedna can have difficulty just being in a lane against Giants, never mind AoE demigods killing their creep wave. How are they going to be able to hold their own if minos are now serious threats? Throwing down over 2000 gold for demos/NR is not a valid suggestion. 

well, investing into your economy to get a stronger economy later on /is/ important, and isn't a 'dumb broken mechanic'. Just about every RTS ever does it to a certain degree (you invest wood to build farms to get food, or you spend a few minerals to train a miner who will make more minerals, or you invest electricity and labor to make a larger power grid). See GPG's sup com games for why they do this. 

Currency is okay in that regard, and the 1800 gold is reasonably costly in 1v1 and 2v2 since as you purchase it you'll also give up lane control temporarily. 3v3+ it's not even sort of a debate of whether or not to get it. I think that baking in currency into the warscore equation would be a better way to do it (+1 gold every other warscore or something like that), but paying to "tier up" your economy, again, has strong ties to RTS mechanics.