Thinking with Portals

Quoting Tridus,

The differences between a permanent shop ingame and a one time preorder bonus are obvious enough, I'd had hoped.

Yep, the collectors editions are usually a lot more expensive then anything in the store.

Yeah pretty much. Granted you sometimes get cool physical things like a map with a collector's edition, but ultimately it just boils down to more cosmetic fluff. Previously you might pay an extra $20 for box with a bunch of fluff. Now you can download 10 bits of fluff that cost 2$ each. They are both equally easy to ignore. It only bothers me when actual content is on day 1 DLC (which does still happen in otherwise good games sadly). Everything else is the same as it's always been.

As a side note I wouldn't necesarily assume that we are all younger generation gamers though just because we don't get too upset by cosmetic DLC. My first PC game was Wizardry 1. Sometimes with age you just find that certain things aren't worth getting too worked up about.

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Quoting Tridus,

reply 50

Yep, the collectors editions are usually a lot more expensive then anything in the store.

And pre-order bonuses are even worse. Content that you can only get by shopping at a specific store? It's a joke.

I am not going to bother arguing any particular point, but I just want to point out that it amazes me that you consider these the same, and harp on pre order bonuses while defending the in game store. I feel like I'm in the twilight zone.

Quoting Tridus,

reply 50

Nobody said there was never fluff in games, yeesh. There also wasn't this amount of fluff (there's quite a lot of stuff in there). Nobody at Valve woke up one day and said "hey lets have the art team spend a couple months on fluff!" and then woke up another day and said "I know, lets sell it now!" It was budgeted.

You skimmed over the problem there. We aren't saying that they took that stuff out to sell it, although that does happen frequently with DLC. We (and by we, I me I and everyone else in the world, but probably just me) are complaining that they took the time to add dress-up to the game at all.

I wonder what kind of stuff we could have had in the game if all of the money and development that went into new hats was put into gameplay? Maybe we could have had an actual 10 hour game?

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Quoting Kodiak888,

reply 52

You skimmed over the problem there. We aren't saying that they took that stuff out to sell it, although that does happen frequently with DLC. We (and by we, I me I and everyone else in the world, but probably just me) are complaining that they took the time to add dress-up to the game at all.

I wonder what kind of stuff we could have had in the game if all of the money and development that went into new hats was put into gameplay? Maybe we could have had an actual 10 hour game?

Well I think you may be severely overestimating the amount of resources that were required to put in a few hats. If you think the game is too short then that's a perfectly valid complaint. But I don't think the hats are to blame for that. Keep in mind as well that the team that works on art and the team that works on gameplay are usually seperate.

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Quoting Kodiak888,

reply 52

I am not going to bother arguing any particular point, but I just want to point out that it amazes me that you consider these the same, and harp on pre order bonuses while defending the in game store. I feel like I'm in the twilight zone.

If it makes you feel better, I feel the inverse. How can anybody tolerate this preorder from X for a bonus BS? I mean Dragon Age: Origins required a spreadsheet to sort out which store had the best collection of bonus items.

You skimmed over the problem there. We aren't saying that they took that stuff out to sell it, although that does happen frequently with DLC. We (and by we, I me I and everyone else in the world, but probably just me) are complaining that they took the time to add dress-up to the game at all.

If you leave gamer websites and go into the wider world of people playing games, you'll find that dress up is incredibly popular. Why do you think Blizzard was able to sell $2.2 million worth of a single in game pet for World of Warcraft (half of which was donated to Make a Wish)? They were $10 a pop, so over 200,000 people bought one.

The target audience has expanded considerably in the last few years, particularly for a highly 'casual' friendly game like Portal 2. The new part of the audience likes different things then the old part, and is willing to spend money if they see what they like. Of course companies are going to make things for them.

I wonder what kind of stuff we could have had in the game if all of the money and development that went into new hats was put into gameplay? Maybe we could have had an actual 10 hour game?

Nope. The whole thing you seem to be repeatedly missing is that this stuff gets made because they expect it to sell. The budget is created with that in mind. If they hadn't done it, there would most likely be a lot of nothing in its place (particularly since as only fluff, it doesn't even take up the time of the same people that level design does).

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I'm going to generalize here, so forgive me if my lingo isn't up to snuff. 8)

I'm aware that the "casual" audience like dress up features, and that Portal 2 is going to make zillions because of it.

I am also aware that making a short animation for a fully rigged model can take a matter of minutes for someone who is familiar with it all already, and the animation needs to only be semi-organic. This pales in comparison to actual content.

And lastly, I am sadly aware that the new audience will throw enough piles at anything that no one could shout hard enough to equal.

My complaint is that the money that went into hats could have gone into more/better level design. Not the same people, not the same team, but instead of hiring X artists to make X hats, they could've instead repurposed those efforts. Are they making more money? Of course. I'm just making the comment that I don't like this trend, even though it's here to stay, and I don't support it. I'm not raging, worked up, or anything. Participating in one thread in the entirety of the internetz while waiting for 5:00 to roll around since there isn't anything at all to do in the office today doesn't mean I'm burning down Gamestops and dropping the copies at Walmart into their disgusting toilets. 8)

Portal 2 would have made money regardless of the accessories. If the money had been spent on game design instead, it would have still made a profit. That is obviously not the best business model, and I don't have any delusions that anyone is going to wake up and say "lets make less money today." I don't support companies that will wring every last dime out of their customers, and Portal 2 is thrown into that pile for myself.

- ugh, and Dragon Age was ridiculous. Even ignoring all of the preorder bonus (at least they didn't have a vendor selling those in game as well), they actually did strip content out of the game for the DLC. They didn't even try to delete the content on the vanilla game disc about Shale either. But I'm bitching about micro-transactions here, don't bring up another topic! 8P

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Quoting Kodiak888,

reply 55

My complaint is that the money that went into hats could have gone into more/better level design. Not the same people, not the same team, but instead of hiring X artists to make X hats, they could've instead repurposed those efforts. )

You already acknowledge the flaw in this argument though, which is that given the minimal effort required to make a few hats, there are unlikely to have been any extra resources dedicated to the art team to do them.

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If you like the game, good for you. You're not going to convince me to buy or support it.

Repurposing 1 hat/dress/roll cage/whatever isn't worth the effort. Repurposing the entire team dedicated to making the large amount of hats could do some good. Let's say they spent $2000 on the salary of the artists who created everything. Now lets say the never did that, and have $2000 from the budget to do whatever with. They could release the level creator tools and have a contest for the best level designs. 1st prize gets $1000, 2nd gets $500, 3rd gets $250, 4th gets $50, and 5th through 25th get $20 credit toward any steam game.

Honestly. I've spent more time restating myself in this thread than I have actually thinking about this dumb game. I could've played, beaten, and forgotten it by now; Which is what I'm doing with this thread. 8)

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While the idea of "stripping out" content to sell later for a DLC sounds bad, think of it this way. Company X wants to make Super Meat Fighter V. They have narrowed down their possible character list to twelve solid choices. Based on how long it takes to make a character, Company X can only justify tasking their workers to make nine characters. Now, instead of waiting and making three characters after release, they can make them immediately for less of an increase in cost. They can justify it with the anticipated future revenue stream. Do I think that this is what happened? No, not for Dragon Age. They did decide at some point, though, that their game had enough content to sell itself, and that anything else could be DLC.

Now, what about hats? People were going to buy Valve games regardless of the hats. Adding them in the original game instead of DLC would not have had a significant impact on the review or sale of the game, so normal business sense says to leave them out. Unlike core game elements, you can add staff to make these DLC additions without having an impact on the base game design costs. When you can be sure your future revenue will cover the costs, the DLC content pays its own way.

Did this stifle other content - lets say level development? The only way this would happen is if Valve has a limit on the capital they wish to invest in Portal 2, regardless of its profitability. Seeing as Valve is not short on money, I would guess that Valve added as many levels as it could make at their high standards. they could have added another level designer, but they either: didn't see it as profitable as a DLC, didn't add enough to the game itself to increase sales, or didn't think/want to bother with it.

Personally, I think Valve could make another fortune adding and selling new puzzle levels, especially if they were incorporated into some sort of global leader board.

tl;dr: DLC content decisions are separate from base game decisions.

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Quoting Kodiak888,

reply 57

Repurposing 1 hat/dress/roll cage/whatever isn't worth the effort. Repurposing the entire team dedicated to making the large amount of hats could do some good. Let's say they spent $2000 on the salary of the artists who created everything. Now lets say the never did that, and have $2000 from the budget to do whatever with. They could release the level creator tools and have a contest for the best level designs. 1st prize gets $1000, 2nd gets $500, 3rd gets $250, 4th gets $50, and 5th through 25th get $20 credit toward any steam game.

1. You are not just re-purposing $2,000. You are taking away the revenue stream that $2,000 is generating.

2. Valve did not decide to not have level contests because they spent $2,000 on developing hats. If they decided it would be a good idea to have a level design contest, they have the capital to spend on it - and even if they didn't, they have the credit rating for a loan (and God knows interest rates are low enough). Valve decided to make hats because making hats was a smart business decision, and decided not to make more levels because they decided it wasn't. This isn't either-or territory.

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Quoting Kodiak888,

reply 57

If you like the game, good for you. You're not going to convince me to buy or support it.

Repurposing 1 hat/dress/roll cage/whatever isn't worth the effort. Repurposing the entire team dedicated to making the large amount of hats could do some good. Let's say they spent $2000 on the salary of the artists who created everything. Now lets say the never did that, and have $2000 from the budget to do whatever with. They could release the level creator tools and have a contest for the best level designs. 1st prize gets $1000, 2nd gets $500, 3rd gets $250, 4th gets $50, and 5th through 25th get $20 credit toward any steam game.

Well actually I haven't even bought the game, and I'm not sure if I'm going to. The single players sounds too short for me and I'm not into co-op. This discussion has nothing to do with trying to convince you to like or support the game. It has to do with realizing how silly it is to complaim about little cosmetic things like hats.

Anyway I think the other issues have been covered. The $2000 they spend is insignificant to their budget and pays for itself in sales so it doesn't actually cost anything. So it does not in any way stop them from having a level editing contest if they want to. Plus employees get paid monthly salaries so you can't just reallocate $2000 from the art team's salary and put it towards something else.

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You're missing out if you buy this and don't find a friend to play coop with. It's an absolute blast.

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Bumping.

Valve has announced their first DLC for Portal 2. Shockingly, they're not following the industry example in releasing it. The DLC will be FREE.

Opinions: have they changed now?

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Hm. That caught my attention.

Probably just what it was supposed to do.

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Quoting GeneralVeers,

reply 62

Bumping.

Valve has announced their first DLC for Portal 2. Shockingly, they're not following the industry example in releasing it. The DLC will be FREE.

Opinions: have they changed now?

No. But then again I didn't have any opinion on Portal 2 DLC, and I still intend to get the game.

Just when the price comes down a bit.

However, I am extremely impressed that the 1st Portal 2 DLC will be free.

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Sweet.

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I'll be getting it this weekend. I've been planning to for a while. The free DLC makes me happy (I'll probably buy the PC version now) but I haven't decided to buy the game because of it.

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Here's the way I see it:

There are a set number of developers working on a title. Some are artists, some are sound guys, some are specialized programmers (network code), some are more generalized. Some skill sets may overlap, none of them can do every job. So what happens when your art department has finished all it's textures, animations, models, what have you, but the rest of the game isn't finished? These guys can't just sit down and start squishing bugs in the matchmaking code. So why not get them started on that DLC content you had planned?

I don't know, but it seems a safe bet that these artists are salaried workers. They are still being paid their $2,000 whether they are creating DLC content or sitting on their thumbs in the break room. You can't just break down the money behind a game anyway you want and redistribute it to your heart's content. It's less fluid than that.

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Quoting Kodiak888,

reply 26

Quoting lbgsloan, reply 23Seems like a suckers bet to buy any Valve game at day 1. Not because the game will be bad, I imagine it will be pretty fun, but because it will probably be on sale for 25-50% this summer and 75% off during Christmas. It's a single player game, so there's really no rush to own to day 1 IMO.

But it has some new multiplayer elements. And day 1 DLC. Looks like I won't be spending a dime on this after all. I miss the Valve that brought us Half Life. Now we have poke-hat collect them all, and micro transaction for the infantile minded valve.

I don't understand what you're complaining about. They're releasing free DLC that is going to contain more test chambers and a challenge mode for both SP and COOP. And this is just the first one, they've already said there's going to be more. You're also for some reason forgetting the free DLC that was handed out to both L4D and L4D2. How can you not support a company that gives stuff out for free and actually supports their games? I seriously can not figure out how you can't be all for that.

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Quoting Whiskey144,

reply 64

No. But then again I didn't have any opinion on Portal 2 DLC, and I still intend to get the game.

Just when the price comes down a bit.

However, I am extremely impressed that the 1st Portal 2 DLC will be free.

Boosh!

"Gamers who have yet to purchase a copy of Valve Software's just-released Portal 2 may want to hold off just a little bit longer... at least, until this weekend. Both Kmart and GameStop are knocking off up to $25 from the original retail price for the console versions, and around $20 for the PC version.

According to the Kmart Gamer Facebook page, the discount retail chain will offer Portal 2 for the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 for a mere $34.99 on Sunday, May 1-- typically the console versions sell for $59.99. The new sale price will apparently be advertised in the Kmart circular found in Sunday's newspaper, but there's no indication of when the sale will actually end.

Joystiq also reports that GameStop will kick off its Portal 2 sale on Saturday, April 30. The Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 versions will charge $5 extra than Kmart's pricepoint the following day, costing $39.99. The store is also selling the PC version for $29.99-- it regularly retails for $49.99 off the shelf.

Consumers who game on both the PC and PlayStation 3 may get the best deal by heading to Kmart and purchasing the PlayStation 3 version. This particular copy will provide an additional code for unlocking Portal 2 for the PC on Steam-- essentially two versions of Valve's instant classic for a mere $34.99. Not too shabby."

From Tomshardware

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Nice. I was going to get the game tomorrow (Sunday): will the sale at Gamestop still be on then?

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Quoting Scoutdog,

reply 70

Nice. I was going to get the game tomorrow (Sunday): will the sale at Gamestop still be on then?

I honestly don't know. I'd just do a search - stumbled upon that article the other day and figured I'd post it here.

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Well, it's a moot point now seeing as I went ahead and bought it anyway.

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Quoting TheProgress,

reply 44

Oh, biggest annoyance with Portal 2 (aside from no longer being able to pick stuff up and throw it - seriously, wtf?)

Hmm, throws seem to still be in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjApKHyEGTc&feature=player_embedded

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This game is mediocre and so far overpriced it's absurd. I had a more enjoyable experience with Portal 1 across the board. I'm still trying to figure out how they justify using 11 GIGAbytes of disk space for this game, there's nothing approaching 11gb of content-- not even close.

Here's a list of retarded occurrences you can find skimming the surface of Portal 2:

1: The title screen comes up nigh immediately, but there's loading at every elevator. Immersion breaking, and poorly designed. Portal 1 level loads are much faster than Portal 2... except for title screen?

2: They managed to make vsync result in... I don't know... 50-100ms cursor/mouse response latency. It's horrible. Yeah yeah, "Disable vsync."

3: The options screen is a f'ing joke.

4: The directional audio is outright broken. Works fine in Portal. [even audio from behind you always comes out Front left and front right speakers]

5: They actually managed to reduce [by a large percentage] the amount of "portalable" areas. White goo is not a substitute for this, so save your breath.

6: It's absurdly short! [Before you reply: consider how many hours you've sunk into Sins.]

7: They turned a quirky sociopathy-inclined rogue AI into a whiny vindictive bitch.

8: The dialogue was 110% "trying too hard" and forced... and finite... while still somehow requiring 11gb...

9: There was woefully little to explore-- for a game trying to flesh out a storyline it was horribly linear and narrated. Probably worse than Bioshocks, "Would you kindly?" nonsense. For a $50 puzzle game, there had best be a good amount for the player to learn via exploration.

10: Portal 2 is an experiment on maximum return for minimum investment. If Portal 1 didn't exist to give it the "street-cred" and instant name recognition that it had, you'd have laughed your ass off at the audacity of someone releasing a game like this for $50, and it would already be in the $4.99 managers special bin.

11: DLC intentionally not mentioned, I'm obviously fighting a losing battle when people are praising a company for "free-DLC".

12: The portal on the moon bit jumped the shark, search your heart.

/hate
/rant
/DrGonzo

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The Forums Are Now Closed!

The content will remain as a historical reference, thank you.

How is this not here yet?

GeneralVeers