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The natives may not be friendly

By on February 9, 2011 5:52:37 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Jeff Vogel has a great blog about how creators should never read their forums. It’s definitely worth a read.

Now, as you guys know, I do read our forums. A lot.  Why? Because I’m dumb. As in, dangerously dumb. I have to consciously remember not to swallow my tongue dumb.

But there’s probably a bit of karmic retribution in there too. I got into making games because I was one of those nerd ragers on Usenet back in the day. Greedy bastardly idiotic game developers who put out games before they’re finished. I’ll show them how it’s done. Only a total moron can’t see when their game isn’t ready for prime time. Cough.

Truth be told though, the Stardock communities are pretty different than most. I hang out on a lot of Internet communities and I think I can safely say that our forums are pretty good. Good enough to the point that someone joining them would likely notice the difference pretty quickly.

We have some advantages there in terms of the type of products we make. No MMORPGs, no FPS’s helps. We have a different demographic. We also rarely but definitely kick out chronic nerd ragers. You can find them on other forums screaming a fit about how they were kicked off because we couldn’t handle a little constructive criticism. Constructive criticism being “You asshats should be disemboweled for your idiocy!”  Everyone knows that it’s ass hat. Not asshat. So of course they got kicked off.

Jeff Vogel is right in what he says. If you read forums, you’ll inevitably get aggravated and say something you shouldn’t.  And nowadays, with game journalism reduced to combing “the nets” for something spicy to get page views, saying things when you’re aggravated carries a lot of risk.

But the question that inevitably comes up over and over is this: Why are we here in the first place? The money? Making niche PC games is not the fast track to money. “It barely pays for my jet fuel™”.  No, the reason, at least for me, is to hang out and talk with other gamers about this stuff.  Not to get all mushy but we’re here because we love you guys. In a manly way that is. Of course. So don’t expect us to disappear any time soon.

Not that’ll stop me from saying horribly inappropriate things from time to time. You bloody basement dwelling troglites. And yes, I’ll be over on Friday to debate the nature of the dark side of the force following the next Clone Wars episode.

+892 Karma | 63 Replies
February 12, 2011 11:36:45 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yeah, I want a great game out of FE myself, on its own merits.  I never played MoM, so I have more realistic expectations.

That said, I do expect something that's at least close to being as fun as GC2 was.

 

 

February 13, 2011 1:35:09 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Not that’ll stop me from saying horribly inappropriate things from time to time. You bloody basement dwelling troglites.

 

Ya mean like,

" Hey our game is gonna be great! " or

" We'll get it fixed in time to be great! " or

" Sorry our game failed to live up to my great big hype! "

 

Oh wait, you probably thought all that was appropriate at the time..

 

By the way, I'm still disappointed in the weakness of your AI. At this rate, a newer better game will be developed from scratch, before you get the AI up to par. Despite your efforts, I'm willing to bet it won't be a Stardock release that surpasses E:WoM.

 

I'd rather send E:WoM back for a refund than see it working like it should have been months ago, or getting a new game for free. Further I will NEVER preorder another Stardock game. If you think that's nerd rage and not an honest expression of my deep disappointment, please ban me. The stuff I'm holding back would melt your face faster than a gander into the Arc of the Covenant.

Signed,

Your not-so-friendly neighborhood Troglodyte

February 13, 2011 5:56:08 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting AbsynthMinded,


[Blah Blah Blah]

Signed,

Your not-so-friendly neighborhood Troglodyte

How is that constructive in any way shape or form? Yeah they promised a good game, ya they screwed it up, ya a lot of people were made angry. We've covered this ground a million times. Stardock is going above and beyond to make ammends. What do you want, blood?

 

If you want to play a newer game, no one is stopping you. If you want to send your game back, you've had ample opportunity. Have a nice day

February 13, 2011 8:44:43 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting troglyte,


How is that constructive in any way shape or form? Yeah they promised a good game, ya they screwed it up, ya a lot of people were made angry. We've covered this ground a million times. Stardock is going above and beyond to make ammends. What do you want, blood?

If you want to play a newer game, no one is stopping you. If you want to send your game back, you've had ample opportunity. Have a nice day

 

Well good on you for stating the obvious there, genius.

 

Umm no, no one ever offered to give me my money back. Or I missed that 'ample opportunity' because I held out hope back then that the game would be fixed in the next patch, or the one after that, or the one after that, or the one after that, and onward. Now almost 6 months later and the game is 'mostly' functional but still lacks the depth of content and AI that we were promised, such that we are now promised a new game completely.

 

Epic Fail In Development

 

Brad, for all his good intentions, should commit Sepaku.. Bleed 'I'm sorry' all over the place for being a hype monger and failing to deliver anything close to what was promised or expected. Possibly get out of AI design completely.. He makes a far more skilled and  competent mouth piece and spin doctor, than he does an AI designer. As for Stardock going above and beyond.. Complete BS, they should have done their jobs right in the 1st place. I have no skill for code at all, but I've been playing games long enough to know when disaster or utter incompetence strikes. It may not have been Brads fault for taking on a project beyond his skill, may not have been Brads fault for releasing a game that was out right 'Broken' out of the box, however all the hype that fell dripping sweet promises and beautifully scripted BS, came directly from Brads fingers and mouth..

 

My 'constructive commentary' here, Shut Up Brad. The work goes on better without you suggesting we just accept your 'communication style'..

 

PS: If you want someone that is irritated to stop commenting, do not respond to them.

February 13, 2011 12:14:50 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting AbsynthMinded,

Quoting troglyte, reply 53

How is that constructive in any way shape or form? Yeah they promised a good game, ya they screwed it up, ya a lot of people were made angry. We've covered this ground a million times. Stardock is going above and beyond to make ammends. What do you want, blood?

If you want to play a newer game, no one is stopping you. If you want to send your game back, you've had ample opportunity. Have a nice day

 

Well good on you for stating the obvious there, genius.

 

Umm no, no one ever offered to give me my money back. Or I missed that 'ample opportunity' because I held out hope back then that the game would be fixed in the next patch, or the one after that, or the one after that, or the one after that, and onward. Now almost 6 months later and the game is 'mostly' functional but still lacks the depth of content and AI that we were promised, such that we are now promised a new game completely.

Obviously you're capable of reading, and so if you've been keeping up with others that had issues at _all_ you'd have seen the bit about emailing [email protected] to get your refund. They shouldn't have to hunt you down to give you a refund, the solution was right there in front of you. Walmart doesn't hunt me down when I buy crap that doesn't work.

Epic Fail In Development

 

Brad, for all his good intentions, should commit Sepaku.. Bleed 'I'm sorry' all over the place for being a hype monger and failing to deliver anything close to what was promised or expected. Possibly get out of AI design completely.. He makes a far more skilled and  competent mouth piece and spin doctor, than he does an AI designer. As for Stardock going above and beyond.. Complete BS, they should have done their jobs right in the 1st place. I have no skill for code at all, but I've been playing games long enough to know when disaster or utter incompetence strikes. It may not have been Brads fault for taking on a project beyond his skill, may not have been Brads fault for releasing a game that was out right 'Broken' out of the box, however all the hype that fell dripping sweet promises and beautifully scripted BS, came directly from Brads fingers and mouth..

 

My 'constructive commentary' here, Shut Up Brad. The work goes on better without you suggesting we just accept your 'communication style'..

PS: If you want someone that is irritated to stop commenting, do not respond to them.

Why is it you and half the other people who come to complain here blame the entire issue on Brad directly? I agree he's a great PR person so long as they can deliver - But he kinda has to be for being in charge of the company. But they already identified the issue with the crashes as being a poorly and inadequately run QA.

And with them working on the game and changing the magic system and the way buildings work during the last few major patches, they're not going to put time into anything but the generic AI practices like resource management, or else they're going to have to rebuild the AI every single patch.

You've posted your issues about OOMs like a lot of others, and you've been part of the boards for a fairly long time. Then you were wanting to figure out how to use mods, and I assume you were having more fun at that point.

Then you posted here: http://forums.elementalgame.com/395527

I like the game, I enjoy the game even as.. diminished, as it is. The trouble I'm having is all the little details not explained.. Primarily, building territory improvements. I thought building a city would apply a link to all developed resources within 5 tiles of the center city tile. So far this has not always proven to be accurate. Like certain improvements will link at farther than 5 tiles (Libraries), other will not link unless apparently physically attached to a city (Scenic Views)..

 

How am I supposed to know, what kind of requirements are necessary to get a thing to link? I mean seriously, add this to the oversight pile please. Add some visual Zone of Control from cities to denote the area in which resources will link to that city, or properly detailed tool tips stating the conditions which need to be met to achieve a link to a city (ie if it needs to be attached, or max range from the city center, or possibly what city it would attach to if developed).

You liked the game, even where it was at (albeit with issues on the resource thing, which I totally agreed with - Got tired of the spiders nest or dragon roosts spawning one tile too far from my cities and not realizing it until I tried to use them), though I saw you were still having issues with mods and the sovereign AI's.

So what happened to change everything then and make you go from still playing to wanting Brad to spill his insides in apology? Just lost patience? Bad day? It's reasonable that you're upset and hell, you've shown more patience than a lot of the people making posts like this. And you were constructive for most of your posting history.

At this point, I'll acknowledge that Elemental is pretty terrible compared to the games I've played in the past - I've been spending a lot of time modding vs. playing outside trying the new patches as they come out. There's a host of things that I'd fix in it if I could, but to me Stardock is moving in the right direction.

It's slowed down a bit it seems like, on their end, but I feel like they have a months leeway with rearranging their staff and hiring more people in - When I come into a new database project that I've not worked with before, it takes me a good month to map things out (Depending on how large it is) and sort out coding issues and the like, and basically familiarize myself with it. So I'm hoping that the next few months we get a lot more things taken care of.

Anyway, I know it's long, but AbsynthMinded, I was just curious as to what caused your posting downfall, and also wanted to post the fact that you have been constructive in the past so that anti-trolls don't jump on the accusation wagon and start crying troll. Everyone deserves to be heard.

Edit: Are there spoiler tags in this forum? I'm tired of posts being super long with no way to cut them without cutting them. </3

February 13, 2011 2:28:36 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

What do you want, blood?

I'll take mine in a golden cup... PHD if Stardock has any.

That said, I'm just here to throw my insignificant weight behind Stardock. Even if Elemental's release was slightly fumbled they've been going above and beyond what's needed to set things right. It's been too long since I've seen such committment. I can't wait to see how Elemental grows and what FE will look like.

Cheers!

February 13, 2011 4:25:13 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Seriously, can't /just/ let a guy vent eh? Fan-Boy code of honor or something?

 

Brad was the mouth piece saying how great it all was going to be, and then saying it will still be great when the krap hit the fan, and saying that sort of thing over and over. I'm sick of Brad talking up the game that he bungled, just generally tired of hearing Brad talk. Brad gets the blame because he was in charge, it was his responsibility to bring the title to market finished, well produced. He failed on many levels, knowing he was doing a bad job as a manager and as AI designer. The AI SUCKS! Let me say that again " T H E - A I - S U C K S! " I play on max difficulty only, and the monsters are always the challenge, not the other empires. Once I am on top of the monsters, the game is a slow progression of me kicking the arse of everything till I win conquest.

As for the refund.. It was offered early on, back when the memory leaks were so bad, almost no one could play a full game to completion. Back then I was still full of hope and Brads promises.

As for my enjoyment of the game, I've kept quite a very long time. Watching the OOM issues get slowly nailed down ( as there were an air craft carrier sized pile of them ). My expectation has always been for the AI to grow a spine, a brain and some teeth. I am still waiting, and am sick of waiting. The announcement of the new title was a slap to the face given how unfinished E:WoM still is. Its present state is what should have been the initial release, and it would still have been sited as a fairly weak game because of the AI being a push over. I have zero interest in the new game.

The point that makes me a downer now you ask? I'm bored.. The game Bores me, it has zero challenge to it, and never ever has. I play a new game once after each patch, yawn because nothing significant has changed for my perception, and ignore it till the next patch. Hoping it'll be different next time. I was never a real beta tester, and I don't want to continue to be a game tester now, but that's what I feel like. The guinea pig secret squirrel delta tester.. Further I feel like the push to really fix E:WoM is weakening, now that there's a new title to work on. I believe the parts I need fixed never will be or as I suspect a new game will out class E:WoM.

As for MOD use.. I stopped bothering with them.. My position is that with every patch the MODS have to be updated and a new game started. I'd like my finished game, then I'll see about mods, if the game needs them.

February 13, 2011 5:26:55 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting AbsynthMinded,
Seriously, can't /just/ let a guy vent eh? Fan-Boy code of honor or something?

Frankly, I'm getting sick of hearing all the bitching. It's all been said. We all know the situation. There's nothing new here. Either pack your bags and move on, or dig yourself in for the long haul.

I'm not a SD fanboi, and I never even heard of Brad W before a month ago. The AI is poor, yes I agree and so would 80% of people on this forums, but serving it up on a diarrhoea and barf splattered note to the CEO is hardly called for. Even after all the fixes, I get the impression that perhaps BW overestimates how good the game actually is. But it doesn't make sense to me to personalize all these attacks against him. It's not like there is a team of people saying "lets make a good game", and then brad sitting back and saying "No, I disagree let's make it crappy".

There is a ton of new talent on board, and there will be new results. I look forward to counting myself among those that saw it through to the end.

February 13, 2011 5:29:43 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting AbsynthMinded,
Seriously, can't /just/ let a guy vent eh? Fan-Boy code of honor or something?

How about class, tact, or civility? If your goal was to crucify Brad than it's revealed far more about your character. If you're done with Brad, SD, and this game then take control of the situation, call for a refund, and leave the forums room for constructive feedback. Some of us like the dialogue with devs and to be part of what is being built - you're raining on our parade. You could have taken a variety of actions and yet you chose the one to rage publicly.

Stick around if you want to be part of the solution - get the hell out of you're just gonna flame.

February 13, 2011 7:16:52 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Like I said about the main point of the AI and the game itself - There's new people there, Brad is back doing his job and his job only, and it'll take a bit for everyone to get everything sorted out and churn out fixes. It wouldn't make sense to put a lot of effort into a new AI, because just like the mods, the AI would have to be redone every time a change was made to the core game.

If you notice, people are still having OOM issues. The game is still being worked on. We're lucky Stardock actually cares. Most companies would stop patching after so many patches don't fix the issue and write it off as a loss. Even if it takes another year Stardock will make it a stable game worthy of the hype they once offered for it.

There's no fanboy code of honor - I gave a detailed response to your complaints and since you didn't offer anything really good in your statement apart from Brad needing to kill himself, I checked your history to try and sort out what your issue was. If trying to find out what's wrong and wanting to offer some constructive help or assistance makes me a fanboy, then I guess I am.

As mentioned previously in some other threads, I was one of the collector edition box set pre-orders. I barely play the game right now because to me it's not really all that entertaining. I spend my time doing other things and keeping track of the forums. That's $80 that I could have had for something else, whether it be for bills or whatever, and I don't have a lot of money to spend on extra things. But I'm still here because I'm not hurting for the money, so it's not killing me to sit here.

Anyone who cries fanboy every time someone tries to help or sort things out needs to either get their refund and move on, or play something else for a few months. Read the forum - If you see people stop complaining about the game then it's probably time to pick it up and repatch it. I've bought tons of games I've had to set aside for even a year and a half before until it was patched to a playable state. Just have patience. The whole point of the original post here was about why Brad still cares enough to read the forums, and then suddenly a few pages into the replies we get people telling him to kill himself. Doing that isn't going to make things better. He's the owner and it'll just tempt him to just call it quits and you'll never see your money or a decent product.

My advice is to just move on for a while and come back later if you don't have the patience to deal with every step of the way.

February 13, 2011 9:29:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

A brief summary of preceding posts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVzYxqG9N1c&feature=related

 

February 13, 2011 9:41:32 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

"Who's basement dwelling!?"

 

This was a great post, Stardock shares my favorite developer spot with Bethesda and posts like these are why.

 

Thanks for the laughs Brad, keep up the fantastic work!

February 15, 2011 1:34:44 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tydorius,
Did you find that from me posting it a few weeks ago? Or do you actively follow Spiderweb Software?

Either way, glad that you're sticking around.

 

spiderweb games are the shit. they better not dumb them down for people that sux at gaming "saw some ost in the forums about it "

 

there no competition to stardock tho it would be kinda cool if u guys made a game somewere along the lines of how theres are tho. i would love playing a game like theres but amde by a company of more then a guy or 2. u shoudl merge wihtem or something or do a co production game with them that would be fuckin sweet.

 

 

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