Wait, that's an aura? I thought you meant it was a permanent buff !!!

That said, assuming it works like Armor of Vengence, Ooze or other abilities shouldn't affect it. Once autoattack. That said, that will pretty much make Queen's creepwave melt the other creep wave without doing anything (I think it would out-pace Fire Aura). (Healing Wind II will keep her creepwave alive but it's quite a bit different... the faster you melt the opposing creepwave, the more you have focusing on the demigod in front of it. If your creeep wave simply takes less damage then the others then your creep wave has more models that survive, which increases your "eventual" dps after the creepwave closes on the opposing demigod).

Orion, I use that same build too (the difference being I don't level up Shamblers)? Don't try to educate me and assume I do the "typical" Shield-Spikes-SAVE-Shield+Spikes build. However, that is the most common and dropping the cost of Shield makes that a more attractive build.There is nothing wrong with balance changes encouraging 3-4 distinct builds per demigod. In fact, that should be its goal.

Also, just because the popular meta dictates 3v3 Cataract Conquest, we can't just assume that is the only game being played. If we really wanted to break it down into the game modes we should "care" about (therefore, non-pantheon so only Conquest games though terrible imbalances for Fortress should be considered):

1v1 Prison, Crucible (hand-wave gap-abuse)

2v2 Prison, Cataract

3v3 Cataract

4v4 Levi, {Exile} (exile is unpopular enough we could forget about it)

5v5 Zikk, {Mandala} (Manadala is unpopular enough we could forget it)

The only demigod that is "universally" T3 is DA. Certain maps favor other confrontations, like TB and Reg are very powerful on Levi.

I looked at the abilities file to clarify, and no, it's not an army bonus anymore - the return damage is from QoT only, and yes, it only works on AA damage.  It's still a permanent 15% DR and some token return damage.  Would the 35 return damage be overpowered as an army bonus?  As you say, it would probably let her minions melt low- to mid-level creepwaves, but it is an L15 skill.

When browsing the abilities file, I noticed how prominent some of the combined Compost + Entourage changes are.

Base Shamblers:

675hp

30dmg / 2s, for 15dps each, total 60dps

Pre-mod Shamblers with Entourage III and Compost III (level V buff, VI unreachable):

975hp

46dmg / 2s, for 23dps each, total 92dps

Post-mod Shamblers with Entourage III and Compost III (level VI buff):

1530hp

132dmg / 2s, for 66dps each, total 264dps

That's a 56% increase in HP, which is pretty reasonable, and a massive 187% increase in damage output.  And this is before any items that boost minion damage/ROF.  I realize that Shamblers (and Yetis) are somewhat useless in their current form, but holy hell that's a big damage increase.  Even without Compost, Entourage III Shamblers in the mod have the HP and damage output of Compost III buff V pre-mod Shamblers.

There are a lot of moderate to significant changes like that in this mod.  Don't complain too much about our opposition to debuff removal/immunity when virtually every other aspect of QoT is getting seriously boosted, maybe a bit too much in some cases.

Yeah, I wasn't really criticizing the shambler buff, just pointing out that basically all skills will now be useful in some way, even without what some of us perceive to be an excessive change (debuff immunity).  Also, I was under the impression that you had enabled the sixth level of compost in this mod, as that would qualify as 'improving QoT', but I guess you wanted to do it in the Uberfix instead, which is also fine.  It's probably possible to do it in both places at once without stepping on any toes code-wise, but I haven't had time to look at it in detail, so I don't know for sure.

As far as compost wearing off, I'm sure it will happen often enough, but compost-boosted entourage III shamblers will tear through creeps like crazy now, making it a lot easier to maintain.  Not a bad thing, just something to keep in mind.

Your Shambler changes inspired me to take a whack at Sedna's Yetis.  I haven't had time to test it extensively, and my armor amounts are probably excessive, but here's what I've got so far.  Strikethrough shows the level IV buff that doesn't get applied in Demigod 1.2 (HotY IV still uses the III buff):

Original Yetis

810/1110/1410/1710hp

No armor

No regen

17/21/25/30dps, from 30/37/44/51 damage at 0.6 rof

total 34/42/100/120dps

Test Yetis

1000/1400/1800/2200hp

0/300/600/900 armor (0/10/19/27% AA resist)

0/5/10/15 regen

30/40/50/60dps, from 45/60/75/90 damage at 0.667 rof

total 60/80/200/240dps

Wild Swings adds +10% attack and movement speed in addition to 75% AE

Inspirational Roar adds +15% attack speed in addition to move/evasion, for 10s from 5s

At level 15 with a few minion HP items and healing wind II, these will take a lone tower in ~25s with typically one yeti loss, and seem to be able to hold their own in a creep wave with un-upgraded giants, though they still die to them sooner or later.  Haven't tested this in a proper game though.  Keep in mind that an unbonused L4 Mino has something like 2050hp with 600 base armor and does 30dps (which is kind of pathetic).

I also figured out how to implement the Yeti buffs as selective army bonuses, so the new buffs are seamlessly applied to existing yetis upon upgrading the skill.

But I suppose this is the wrong thread for this.

Of course to complicate that, I would argue that a few of the items should probably have their bonuses changed.  It seems like there are too many items with minion HP, and not enough with minion armor/regen.  It's nowhere near as big a problem as with demigod HP stacking, as the minion-bonused non-artifacts will typically leave the general wearing them at a disadvantage even if their minions are heavily boosted.  However, you can still get around 1500hp from non-artifact items, and only something like 900 armor (27% AA resist).  This ends up making minions tougher vs abilities than they probably should be, but not resistant enough to towers and creeps.  It also reduces the importance of minion hp regen, even on the level of the above settings and Healing Wind II (39hp/s before items).

As for Yetis taking tower AoE - with these settings, I don't think it's a big deal, as they are still 'disposable' minions, even if they're intended to be the least disposable of the general-specific minions.  You can still push a tower with HW II, HotY III, and a few cheap minion items, even if you usually have to resummon Yetis once or twice.  It's a massive improvement over yetis all dying to the tower within 3 firing cycles after having done maybe 500 damage, at HotY IV.

And Sedna isn't Rook or QoT - the ability to kill towers rapidly and efficiently isn't really core to her character design.  She just doesn't need to be quite as disadvantaged at it (and late-game creep farming) as she is now.

Link to LOPQoT v8

Change List

Mulch

• AutoMulching Implemented.
• Automatically destroys the oldest shambler.
• AOE Damage is divided evenly between all shamblers.
• Units near all shamblers will take listed damage.
• Other units will take damage proportional to the number of shamblers they are near.
• A better tooltip is needed. Suggestions welcome.
• Explosion timer reduced to 0.5 seconds from 2 seconds.

Entourage

• + 10 Shambler weapon damage per level
• +100 Shambler Armor per level
• +165 Shambler Health per level

Tribute

• +10 Gold production from +4. 

Bramble Shield

• Absorb: 700,950,1200,1450
• Cost: 400,560,720,880
• Efficiency: 1.75 1.70 1.67 1.64
• 60 second duration
•  When QoT casts Bramble Shield IV on herself she becomesimmune to debuffs for 3 seconds. Current Active debuffs are unaffected.

Ground Spikes

• Returned to original form

Goddess of Thorns

• The 15% damage reduction and 35 damage retaliation becomes a passive ability active only for the QoT at all times.

Compost

• Shambler/QoT Weapon Damage 6/12/18/36/54
• Shambler/QoT MaxHealth Increase 60/120/180/240/300

Spike Wave

• Spike wave is now an interrupt

Uproot

• Total damage increased to 750/1250/1750/2250
• QoT attack Range Increase Removed
• QoT Weapon Damage Increased by 15/30/45/60
• Uproot can heal towers.

Violent Siege

• Damage is 225 per tick at 15 yards radius.
• This damage is mitigated by armor

Ptarth's Thoughts

• Automulch works (I think). I am happy now. Tooltip should probably be more explicit.
• Bramble Shield still needs a buff at higher levels.
• Compost MaxHealth increases are trivial. Increase it or lose it.
• Violent Siege 15 is really big.
• Ground Spikes still completely dominates Uproot. Something needs to make Uproot more useful than Ground Spikes in at least a few cases.
• Uproot is still weak. I think the next version should be channelable and give health and/or mana.
• Spike Wave needs to have some reason to get higher levels of Spike Wave
• Tribute isn't good enough. QoT gets 600 gold per 60 ticks ~ 1 minute. (Note. What's the tick to second conversion ratio?). So estimating a game lasts 5 minutes after getting level 15, this gives the QoT an extra 3k gold. Compared to UB who gains a lot of free damage immunity.

Wiki Started

http://code.google.com/p/uberfix/wiki/LOPQoT

Each ability should have its own page where changes are discussed. I haven't created individual pages yet. There should also be base stats for all demigods for all levels and all abilities. Some build power cutoffs should also be calculated to create baselines. If anyone else wants to do these things or other things, that would be great. Also, I'm not sure who it gives write access to. If someone could check that, that would also be great.

Automulch should still allow you to keep cross lane farming.

• Assuming Mulch 1 you get 250 damage and have 2 shamblers each will do 125 to nearby targets. That's enough to get xp/kill credit for units up to 500 hp. You can also suicide a shambler to then have the other shambler do a full 250 damage (sufficient to get 1000 hp units).

Shield IV

• I haven't linked the shields together yet. I think I can do it, I just haven't gotten around to it. (I'm still not sure it is necessary.)

Still don't like the 3s debuff immunity.  I'd rather see shield increased in HP absorption at level IV than be given something that powerful.  Shield is not currently her weakest ability by any means, especially now that GoT is very much worth taking.

The extreme item health stacking is mainly what makes it seem so weak at higher levels right now.  Addressing that in another mod would give a significant indirect buff to shield IV.

What exactly do you mean by 'linked together'?

Edit:

I think a little of each, but definitely not direct anti-tower or anti-DG (although they should still be somewhat effective vs lone towers and melee DGs).  Right now, Sedna is virtually incapable of turning a creepwave with giants, and is in serious trouble if an enemy DG shows up while she's trying.  So that'd be the primary goal in my mind, at least - get maxed out L4 Yetis able to stand up to giants with some assistance from Sedna herself (in the form of added damage, healing wind, heal, etc).

The rest is secondary.  Thus the emphasis on armor and raw damage over either speed, ROF, or raw hp.

Late-game it's more like, Giants -> Ground Spikes -> Demigods melt -> Lock flag in safety. 

Also, most demigods won't have much of a saw in the matter

Demigods who wouldn't be able to pop Shield and have an interrupt: 

Oak, Sedna

Demigods without interupts but able to pop: 

Occulus, Regulus

Demigods who have interupts but will be unable to pop

UB (lack of burst), TB (Fireball -> Drop -> RoI -> DF is too slow if the Queen ports, shields, locks). 

Demigods who have alpha strikes and interupts on different abilities

Erebus, Rook, DA (but swap is too slow, Rook's Hammer Slam - Roll /barely/ makes it and Erebus can't burst through it alone)

Demigods unable to pop:

Queen

---

I do that Queen losing her debuff immunity breaks homogenuity, so I think it's a more clever idea and also a decent compromise making her stronger and better at locking without being over the top. So long as it doesn't remove debuffs (to be a 7 second cooldown heal III clone) when it casts, simply makes her immune to new ones (so that means, if an Oak tries to pop her shield with Penitence, then she won't suffer the % damage increase which is a pretty big deal. Same with UB and spit). 

I would also rework it as follows:

• Absorb: 700,950,1200,1450 -> 700,980,1260,1400
• Cost: 400,560,720,880 -> 400,560,720,720
• Efficiency: 1.75 1.70 1.67 1.64 -> 1.75,1.75,1.75,1.94
•  When QoT casts Bramble Shield IV on herself she becomes immune to debuffs for 3 seconds. Current Active debuffs are unaffected. This buff is removes when Bramble Shield IV is destroyed.

The concept is rather than Shield IV's primary benefit be simply a "bigger shield" like it is now, you would get Shield IV for it's debuff immunity and the fact it is a slightly bigger shield without costing "a bigger helm", which solves one of her major late-game weaknesses. 

Shield II doesn't really need to be buffed, but I don't think that 30 more absorption will make a big deal in the long-run (that's a 3% buff). It's major benefit is that it makes the gap between Cloak of Night Queen and Blood Queen a little smaller at level 4. I think most people agree that Shield III is towards when Queen starts to weaken. I don't think that the 60 more absorption will change that much about that. Plus, weather or not Queen is "weak" at Level 7 is up for debate. 

Shield IV changes are a bit more drastic. Notice the 50 absorption nerf, though the "huge" mana-buff (18% cheaper). I think that in most cases the debuff will save her more than 50 absorption (spit, blocking a Silence or other stun so she can mulch or Sigil, preventing penitence and bite debuffs, etc).

Many Demigods have a 15 second cooldown on their interupt. The only ones who don't have a 15 second or more cooldown are Oak and Sedna. 

I disagree about item abuse. The only real "abuse" is porting away. If they lock a flag AND then port away, they probably either had full hp (but no mana? why not fight?) or had to Sigil to do it. That's a lot of gold. Eating pots in your face is just hilarious as well. 

Porting away is really the only item that you can "abuse" without hurting yourself in the long run, other than chain-locking portals. 

---

Bullshit. Sorry, but it's true. Mid game (8-10) she is probably the best in a 1v1 General versus General match up. However, she struggles a lot more in 1v1 General versus Assassin match ups (and against General versus Assassin matchups she can't buy Currency if she wants to win):

Rook ... yah. lol

UB ... Sedna is really one of the few characters that can beat a UB. But Erebus can too between Bite and Mist. 

TB ... though a Sedna with Bishops can ignore TB, she can't have Bishops if she got cur.  Sedna struggles against a Blood Fire TB (typically because said Blood Fire TB is 2-3 levels ahead) because she has to choose to eat fireballs or stand in a circle and burn away.  Against a BotS Hybrid, she doesn't have the ability to kite them out since she has no ranged. Though Sedna will destroy a BotS Hybrid standing on a flag at this stage in the game. 

Reg and DA don't count for this discussion. Though Reg can kite Sedna ad nauseum. 

Once catapults and giants hit the field, she can't 1v1 against pretty much anyone except DA in a creep lane. Now, pull her out of a creepwave and she can fight UB still. Just not in one. 

---

Queen rapes Oak early game? You can certainly outlevel him if you're on the mana side and alternating since you farm faster, even at level 5 when he can Surge. If you are both on HP side, then he isn't getting levels fast which just prolongs your early-game advantage.

---

I don't neccassarily want to bring QoT to == UB. I want to bring the best down a notch, and the weaker up.

I think Oak, Rook (bottom half of T1) and Sedna (upper T2) should be the "ruler" to guide. They have various roles they can play, various builds, even if some are better than others in general, and have a variety of different Favor Items available to them that can all be useful in certain situations. And they have a wide variety of skill lines that mostly tend to be useful. 

Occulus could be in there if he had more than one viable skill tree build and half his abilities weren't bugged and his passives didn't all mostly suck. 

Now, I don't want to crash and burn UB (and I do want to fix Bestial Wrath and I think I have a unique solution for that), and I have a LOT of concepts regarding balance. Lots. I could type up pretty much the total sum of how I would "balance the game" over the weekend if you beg me  

---

Regarding Yeti's roles. 

Sedna has three major flaws throughout the course of the entire game (low armor and low hp being huge end-game but not a problem until then):

- lack of high, reliable damage output

- lack of AoE. 

- lack of ability to kill while chasing (this is because pounce screws up your autoattack because it doesn't have a snare effect like Pentitence or Bite, which allow the attacker to cast the animation and then catch up back into melee range. You can only pounce if you have Cloak of Night or Wand of Speed or they are Rook). 

There are two items that you can purchase that fix the first two flaws dramatically and the third somewaht:

- Nature's Reckoning

- Siege Gunners

Siege Gunners have splash, deal decent damage, help push towers, etc. NR is great for farming. Bishops also do nice dps once you get them as well. 

I've always imagined Yetis as being basically "mini" demigods. They should do decent enough damage you can't just ignore them (like say, one of Erebus' free night walkers) but not so much that you CAN'T ignore them (like a full horde of Oak Spirits with Ring of Divine Might, full Morale and Gloves). 

If I were to redesign them I would do the following (keeping in mind Yetis as a "bodyguard" type role for Sedna, and an infinite budget, and maintaining heterogeneity):

- Limit them to 1 for all levels. Reduce mana costs, and increase hp and armor accordingly (dps could be left as it is or slightly increased - they only do 13 dps at level 1). Have all minion-items have double an effect on the single Yeti. This number could be tied to the skill itself ("minion buffs have +50%/100%/150%/200% effectiveness"). Would be interesting if this also included non-item buffs, such as Fire Aura and Healing Wind. 

- Give them 100% cleave from the get go. They are melee and attack as slow as molasses so it's not a big deal. You could link this into a "crit" if a natural cleave is OP. 

- Make their pathing not terrible so they can properly chase enemies if you have Boots of Speed/Inner Grace/Wand of Speed

- Provide an "aggro" aura. All non-demigod enemies within 'X' range are provoked into attacking them and will chase them. This includes minions (which counter Sedna). Utilities:

  A: Creep wave control. You can draw enemy creep waves away from you or past you (or into towers), while your creepwave moves in on beat on your opponent or attack the other creepwave while it chases your Yeti around. 

  B: Monk pulling. The aggro range would have to be decently small (like 5-8 yards, which is half of most Aura's range) for this not to be abused, but you can run up your Yeti close enough to a monk to aggro them, then run your Yeti back straight into your towers. If you're engaged with a demigod, they are forced to autoattack your yeti while you beat on him, or lose his monks. Very effective against Assassins  

  C: Minion-build counter. It really only "delays" them since minions will melt Yetis with their 9000 dps but it still would be useful, especially for pulling to towers. 

- Provide a +armor aura for friendly demigods. Synergy with healing wind, and this could be made into the Level 15 skill if that was a big deal (or you could make the Aggro into the Level 15 if everyone screams OP.. which they probably will anyway). 

- To balance this, the Yeti must be within a certain range (20? 30?) to Sedna or they suicide. 

However, I don't think that Yetis themselves should do very much damage. They should be decently good at farming creeps up to Priests, but shouldn't be much of a threat to Giants (other than making them run around not dealing damage). Note that currently at level 1, one yeti only does 13 dps, which is roughly the dps of a single minotaur creep. I wouldn't have a problem with them keeping roughly that much dps against demigods. You could use Weapon Types to make Yetis do extra damage against minotaurs and minions without being stronger against demigods. Again, I don't think that Yetis should be particularly effective against other Demigods. 

If a Yeti is fighting alongside Sedna over a flag, you wouldn't feel a need to kill-it-or-die since it's damage is negligible. However, you might want to since the armor and aggro auras will work in Sedna's favor in the long run. On the other hand, it shouldn't take that long to kill it. 

Obviously, this could be terribly imbalanced, or still very UP. But I thought it was a unique way to redo Yetis (even though that would be a LOT of coding, see "infinite balance" above) and I think it would be an interesting way to cover Sedna's flags and bring something unique to the table. 

I said that's what I would do given infinite resources, and from the ground-up, rather than a pure balance change. In reality, a drop in mana summoning costs and perma-AoE damage would let them serve their roles decently well, though they will still die a bit fast. I prefer overhauling game mechanics as opposed to smaller mathmatic changes. 

Please see the attached replay showing you that Wand of Speed does in fact modify your minions speed. All speed buffs to you also improve your army (surge of faith for example). That's why Wand of Speed is a crucial, yet infrequently purchased item for minion builds. 

http://www.box.net/shared/0qb211csvu

For the double-buff overhall, I would propose an invisible buff that would be attached to your character that would go through your current active Item Blueprints and find minion bonus, then multiply them. You might have to reset them at the shop or onDrop for items. It would be a lot of work, and not something I would propose we do. But if I had unlimited resources... 

yep. I'm not sure if Fire Aura and Surge of Faith have a double effect or not (eg, it buffs your Demigod and then buffs your minions indivisually as well). 

DamageBonus is a completely separate buff from DamageRating.  DamageRating is added to weapon base damage, and then the result is multiplied by DamageBonus, which is a pure mult.  You can 'Add' to DamageBonus, but adding 1 makes it a 2x multiplier.  Then doing a mult of 2 to that would mean quadrupling damage.

Meanwhile, a DamageRating Mult just multiplies all the Adds to DamageRating.  When you only have one mult, they're roughly the same thing, but DamageRating Mults stack additively, where DamageBonus can multiply multiple added DamageRating Mults.  Yeah, I don't know.  They only used it for tower buffs as far as I can tell, but it should work (albeit with possible balance issues) with any demigod/minion weapon as well.

This would have a tooooon of side-effects though, and probably not help the yetis very much with their normal movement problems (which have more to do with the engine's weird squad/formation system than anything else).

Incredibly easy.  Ability aura pulse with 'Enemy' alliance and MOBILE -HERO affect category that calls ClearCommandQueue() and then IssueAttack({minion}, yeti) in OnAuraPulse or whatever the function is called.  If it can't be done directly using the aura, add a dummy buff that does it in OnBuffAffectUnit or whatever.