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Video Card Questions

Mine's been actin' up a little

By on June 3, 2010 10:10:40 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

So a couple days ago I got Dawn of War II Gold edition. Which would be great if every so often (usually when lots of visual effects are occurring on screen) my computer didn't decide to crap out and give me a black (or on one occassion, a grey) screen.

Before anyone says "go bug Relic/THQ/Steam", I KNOW it isn't the game. Or rather, it's not the software. I'm 99% certain my problem has to do with my video card. My reasoning is based on the fact that this incident of "black screen unresponsiveness" has happened- at least 9 or 11 times with Mirror's Edge, 1 with Dawn of War:Dark Crusade, probably between 8 and 11 times with DoWII, and a few times with a couple of other Unreal Engine 3 games.

Thus, my questions:

1. I've decided that I NEED a new video card, considering it renders DoWII effectively unplayable. Advice on a good-quality, inexpensive, and reliable card that is under 200 dollars (preferably in the US$100-150 range) and will play Dawn of War II (and Chaos Rising, as I got both in the Gold Edition) on at least all low (preferably all medium) settings (but with 1366x768 widescreen resolution (my native screen size)), is wanted.

2. Since I'm probably not going to get a new video card until my birthday (about 2 months away), what are some ways I can optimise my computer (and especially my video card) so that I can minimize or at least recover without having to manually cut power and boot to desktop.

3. I'd also like to know what kinds of things can cause video card problems and how to correct them in a way I can do on my own; excluding malicious foreign software though, as I'm certain it's a hardware, and not a software, issue.

For the inevitable questions about the issue and my system specs-

SYSTEM SPECS-

HP Pavilion dv6z laptop, running Vista 64-bit (Service Pack 2), 
            AMD Athlon X2 Dual-Core QL-65 2.1GHz processor
            4GB RAM
            285GB HDD
            ATI Radeon HD3200 video card

I don't kow what my sound card is.

ISSUE-

Generally in heavy-graphics games (like Unreal Engine 3 games or DoWII), or in games where there are portions where there's a lot of graphics effects (particularly particle effects it seems), my computer's screen will randomly go black (or as noted, on one occassion it turned grey) and my computer will then be (seemingly) unresponsive.

UPDATE 4/6/2010- the issue also has happened with Shattered Horizon, an indie FPS I'm trying on Steam's free weekend of it.

+58 Karma | 22 Replies
June 3, 2010 11:36:23 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Sounds like you have an overheating issue.

First thing you should do is get a can of compressed air and blow out the dust from the entire case, and especially around the fans.

You could also be taxing the power supply, which has a higher power requirement when you are using the video card and/or CPU at their maximum. You failed to mention the wattage of your PSU.

June 3, 2010 11:49:26 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Tom's Hardware does a monthly (or close to monthly) round up of the best performing video cards at certain price thresholds, which is often an invaluable resource.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/graphics-card-geforce-radeon,2646-3.html

That's the June one.

 

However, they do aim almost entirely on performance in these round ups, sometimes feature sets are considered as well where relevant, but they don't look at long term reliability and other such things. To find out that, will likely need to look at the pricepoint you're interested in, find the model, then go take a look around the place and see (via Google!) if there are any widespread issues with the chip, or specific brands of the card, etc.

As for a personal reccomendation, I couldn't be happier with the nVidia GTX260, it'll be within the price range you're looking at and performs beautifully.

 

In terms of trying to resolve the issue you're having now.. Can look at doing a complete driver wipe (ATI has a tool you can download and run from Windows Safemode, I believe) then do a clean install of the latest drivers and the like, but the problems you're explaining sound more like bad memory modules on the card itself, and there isn't really a lot you can do about that.

Of course, it's possible it's also just overheating. In which case, could try RivaTuner/SpeedFan to monitor it, then see if you can either crank up the fanspeed if that is the case, or even apply a small underclock to resolve if you can't or it isn't sufficient.

But yeah.. That is a pretty.. um.. not great card you have at the moment. So an upgrade wouldn't really do ya any harm anyhow.

If it still persists through a new graphics card, might want to load up memtest86 and let it do a few cycles of that, see if there are any issues with your RAM chips as well.

June 4, 2010 8:15:06 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Moosetek13,
Sounds like you have an overheating issue.

First thing you should do is get a can of compressed air and blow out the dust from the entire case, and especially around the fans.

You could also be taxing the power supply, which has a higher power requirement when you are using the video card and/or CPU at their maximum. You failed to mention the wattage of your PSU.

I actually don't know the wattage of my PSU. I'd have to dig up all the docs that came in the box with my comp. Thanks for the tips though.

Quoting Naithin,
Tom's Hardware does a monthly (or close to monthly) round up of the best performing video cards at certain price thresholds, which is often an invaluable resource.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/graphics-card-geforce-radeon,2646-3.html

That's the June one.

 

However, they do aim almost entirely on performance in these round ups, sometimes feature sets are considered as well where relevant, but they don't look at long term reliability and other such things. To find out that, will likely need to look at the pricepoint you're interested in, find the model, then go take a look around the place and see (via Google!) if there are any widespread issues with the chip, or specific brands of the card, etc.

As for a personal reccomendation, I couldn't be happier with the nVidia GTX260, it'll be within the price range you're looking at and performs beautifully.

 

In terms of trying to resolve the issue you're having now.. Can look at doing a complete driver wipe (ATI has a tool you can download and run from Windows Safemode, I believe) then do a clean install of the latest drivers and the like, but the problems you're explaining sound more like bad memory modules on the card itself, and there isn't really a lot you can do about that.

Of course, it's possible it's also just overheating. In which case, could try RivaTuner/SpeedFan to monitor it, then see if you can either crank up the fanspeed if that is the case, or even apply a small underclock to resolve if you can't or it isn't sufficient.

But yeah.. That is a pretty.. um.. not great card you have at the moment. So an upgrade wouldn't really do ya any harm anyhow.

If it still persists through a new graphics card, might want to load up memtest86 and let it do a few cycles of that, see if there are any issues with your RAM chips as well.

I'll check that link.

I'll try SpeedFan, and then check it.

I doubt it's my RAM chips, though what specifically would be wrong with them if it was the RAM chips?

What's a good ATI card for my price range? I've got ATI in right now; though Relic/THQ apparently espouse nVidia cards as superior for the Dawn of War series.

June 4, 2010 8:38:36 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

am i missing something here? are you wanting to put a video card in a laptop?

June 4, 2010 8:57:27 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting MadDeez,
am i missing something here? are you wanting to put a video card in a laptop?

Yes actually. Considering my current card is acting up, I'd like to upgrade it (also to get better performance for DoWII).

June 4, 2010 11:54:45 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

I would first try some benchmarking tools.  Try the benchmarkijng tools from Futuremark. You can use them for mobile and PC benchmarking. The 3DMark and PCMark lines of PC benchmark software help you get more from your PC for games, media or applications.

 

Futuremark

 

Also, try using GPU-Z to get realtime data on your graphics hardware.  GPU-Z is a lightweight utility designed to give you all information about your video card and GPU. 

 

GPU-Z

GPU-ZGPU-Z

June 4, 2010 12:24:55 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

i build desktop rigs for people every day. i admit i don't work on laptops. i own one but somebody has been borrowing it for over 2 years. i also own a netbook but couldn't tell you where it is at the moment.

is it possible to upgrade the gpu in a laptop? i thought all laptop gpu's were onboard.

June 4, 2010 12:39:29 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting MadDeez,
i build desktop rigs for people every day. i admit i don't work on laptops. i own one but somebody has been borrowing it for over 2 years. i also own a netbook but couldn't tell you where it is at the moment.

is it possible to upgrade the gpu in a laptop? i thought all laptop gpu's were onboard.

Dear God, I hope that laptp GPUs aren't onboard!

Quoting The__Goo,
I would first try some benchmarking tools.  Try the benchmarkijng tools from Futuremark. You can use them for mobile and PC benchmarking. The 3DMark and PCMark lines of PC benchmark software help you get more from your PC for games, media or applications.

 

Futuremark

 

Also, try using GPU-Z to get realtime data on your graphics hardware.  GPU-Z is a lightweight utility designed to give you all information about your video card and GPU. 

 

GPU-Z



Reduced 96%

Original 390 x 458

Reduced 96%

Original 390 x 458

I'll try out that GPU tool. Though I've yet to actually try to remedy the problem, as I only posted about the issue last night before I went to bed and have been in school all morning.

June 4, 2010 4:40:41 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Moosetek13,
Sounds like you have an overheating issue.

First thing you should do is get a can of compressed air and blow out the dust from the entire case, and especially around the fans.

You could also be taxing the power supply, which has a higher power requirement when you are using the video card and/or CPU at their maximum. You failed to mention the wattage of your PSU.

Unfortunately I've been unable to open the case so I can get at the fan like I want to. Additionally I've been unable to determine what my PSU wattage is.

I did however manage to gather some data on my graphics card:

GPU- RS780M
Shaders- 40 Unified
DirectX Support- DX10, Shader Model 4.0 (SM4.0)
Memory Size- 320 MB (128 MB is required for DoWII)
Default Clock- 500 MHz
Memory- 333 MHz

GPU-Z gives "0 MHz" as the GPU Clock and Memory values. Which I find odd.

SpeedFan right now is telling me that my HD0 temp is about 37 degrees Celsius, with "Temp1" (I'm guessing it's remote or GPU) at 57C and Core at 55C. Temp1 and Core fluctuate around that area.

June 4, 2010 5:02:29 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

UPDATE- because I'm too lazy to edit my posts and because this is easier, here it is-

While running DoWII in the background, Temp1&Core temperatures have gone up to initiall 66C&64-67C, respectively, topped out at 70C/70C, and are currently 66/65. HD0 is running at 38C.

Are these temperatures abnormally high or are they okay?

June 4, 2010 6:01:29 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

UPDATE- temperatures topped out in the 170-179 Fahrenheit range (I switched it to that instead of Celsius as I can gauge Fahrenheit better). For reference previous temperatures are guessed in the 130-140 Fahrenheit range. Mostly because that's what my computer is idling at about right now.

Also, I've decided to religiously employ the fan I own. It seems to be helping tremendously, as I was able to get through 2 rounds of The Last Stand gamemode in DoWII. Though it doesn't have quite as much going on as the campaign.

June 5, 2010 10:50:34 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Oh god, I ENTIRELY missed the whole 'Laptop' thing in your listed specs. Oops. My bad.

In that case, the link I gave you will practically worthless. Those are for desktops; in most Laptops the GPU is indeed an onboard solution rather than a discrete card. Really on the meatiest of the gaming laptops have any kind of graphics CARD in them.

 

Anywho, as for the temps, they're actually not that bad for a laptop. The problem is that I doubt they actually will stable out at even the second set of figures you provided. Laptops are notoriously bad for airflow, causing their temps to just keep on rising.

They're particularly bad if they're not on a hard flat surface with some clearance underneath them, or even if they are on such a surface if the lil stand peg thingies aren't raising it sufficiently.

June 5, 2010 11:40:16 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting MadDeez, reply 7i build desktop rigs for people every day. i admit i don't work on laptops. i own one but somebody has been borrowing it for over 2 years. i also own a netbook but couldn't tell you where it is at the moment.



is it possible to upgrade the gpu in a laptop? i thought all laptop gpu's were onboard.



Dear God, I hope that laptp GPUs aren't onboard!

You're screwed I have an HP dv9700t laptop, the model before yours, and one screen-size bigger. The video card is an Nvidia GeForce 8600M 512MB. Last October, thanks to the wonderful construction of that card and great design decisions on HP's part, it overheated and started to melt, and took out the motherboard in the process. Cost $400 to repair it, and they replaced it with the same defective graphics card.

Before it crapped out entirely, I experienced problems similar to yours. When I was playing games or doing something graphics intensive, the screen would go all screwy. Sometimes it went black, sometimes grey, sometimes a mess of colors. I would wait a couple seconds, and I would be at my desktop, game crashed, and a little bubble in the corner saying something along the lines of "The graphics card has suffered a problem, but has recovered." Eventually these crashes happened more and more frequently, until it blue screened, and then it just didn't start, period (but I could start it in safe mode, which is weird, but that let me copy all of my data).

So, my advice; if you have an external hard drive or something, back everything up, just in case. In the future, don't get anything with a GeForce 8600, it is a known defect that Nvidia has chosen to ignore. As already mentioned, put it on a flat surface, and raise it on something, or get one of those big cooling fans. Hopefully some of that helps...

June 6, 2010 12:24:35 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Try playing only on battery power, not AC.

The CPU usually throttles down when it's on battery, and you won't generate so much heat.

June 6, 2010 2:31:24 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Topping out at 70-80C though isn't indicative of any heat issues if those values are indeed correct for the card.  I don't use ATI but if you can find a program like EVGA Precision which lets you control fan speeds on the fly, you could test if you no longer have problems while playing after cranking up the fans.  I hear some good things about RivaTuner.

Really though, it's pretty dubious that those temps are causing such issues at least from my experience.  Multiple games crapping out as you say sounds more like a dying card.

June 6, 2010 4:17:54 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Temp1&Core temperatures

What, exactly, are these temps mapped to?

Which one, if either, is the video chip?

The symptoms indicate an overheating video chip, no matter what any other temp readings indicate.

June 6, 2010 8:48:46 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting kyogre12,

Quoting MadDeez, reply 7i build desktop rigs for people every day. i admit i don't work on laptops. i own one but somebody has been borrowing it for over 2 years. i also own a netbook but couldn't tell you where it is at the moment.



is it possible to upgrade the gpu in a laptop? i thought all laptop gpu's were onboard.



Dear God, I hope that laptp GPUs aren't onboard!


You're screwed I have an HP dv9700t laptop, the model before yours, and one screen-size bigger. The video card is an Nvidia GeForce 8600M 512MB. Last October, thanks to the wonderful construction of that card and great design decisions on HP's part, it overheated and started to melt, and took out the motherboard in the process. Cost $400 to repair it, and they replaced it with the same defective graphics card.

Before it crapped out entirely, I experienced problems similar to yours. When I was playing games or doing something graphics intensive, the screen would go all screwy. Sometimes it went black, sometimes grey, sometimes a mess of colors. I would wait a couple seconds, and I would be at my desktop, game crashed, and a little bubble in the corner saying something along the lines of "The graphics card has suffered a problem, but has recovered." Eventually these crashes happened more and more frequently, until it blue screened, and then it just didn't start, period (but I could start it in safe mode, which is weird, but that let me copy all of my data).

So, my advice; if you have an external hard drive or something, back everything up, just in case. In the future, don't get anything with a GeForce 8600, it is a known defect that Nvidia has chosen to ignore. As already mentioned, put it on a flat surface, and raise it on something, or get one of those big cooling fans. Hopefully some of that helps...

I have a nice cooling fan and also am pretty sure that it blackscreens at around the 190's Fahrenheit. Or maybe the 200's, somewhere up there. I've found that it doesn't blackscreen nearly as often with the fan on, which is nice.

Quoting Moosetek13,
Try playing only on battery power, not AC.

The CPU usually throttles down when it's on battery, and you won't generate so much heat.

I may have to try that. Problem is on high performance power mode I'm thinking I'll drain the battery REALLY fast.

Quoting Mazuo,
Topping out at 70-80C though isn't indicative of any heat issues if those values are indeed correct for the card.  I don't use ATI but if you can find a program like EVGA Precision which lets you control fan speeds on the fly, you could test if you no longer have problems while playing after cranking up the fans.  I hear some good things about RivaTuner.

Really though, it's pretty dubious that those temps are causing such issues at least from my experience.  Multiple games crapping out as you say sounds more like a dying card.

Well, what I'm thinking is that my card isn't so much as dying as just overheating too often. At least I hope to God it isn't dying. Mirror's Edge is probably the most graphics intensive game I've ever played besides DoWIIGold and Shattered Horizon, as it only ever happened once with Dark Crusade (after I'd been playing some DoWII, so that may have contributed), and the UDK incidences I can ascribe the the May build being a bit buggy and also using the new Scaleform UI (which may not play too nice with my system ATM).

Quoting Moosetek13,

Temp1&Core temperatures


What, exactly, are these temps mapped to?

Which one, if either, is the video chip?

The symptoms indicate an overheating video chip, no matter what any other temp readings indicate.

Core seems to fluctuate more, so I'm guessing it's my processor and Temp1 is the video card. Especially since Temp1 seems to be the one that cools down far slower.

I have found however, that if I let my laptop sleep with the fan on, that DOES help it cool down. Playing only 1-3 missions of DoWII and then shutting it down and doing something else for a few minutes also lets it cool down a bit.

 

The only good thing I can think of if my card dies is that I can maybe get a better one.

June 6, 2010 3:35:34 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting MadDeez,
i build desktop rigs for people every day. i admit i don't work on laptops. i own one but somebody has been borrowing it for over 2 years. i also own a netbook but couldn't tell you where it is at the moment.

is it possible to upgrade the gpu in a laptop? i thought all laptop gpu's were onboard.

They typically are. A very small amount of notebooks come with "plug and play" GPUs but you typically have to re-purchase them from the manufacture because they have special form factors and heat concerns are enormous.

However, I have opened up my notebook before and if you really wanted to you could take it off and put in a new chip. But I don't think they sell those on newegg  

June 6, 2010 3:39:23 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Your best solution is to wait for ATI's XGP solution to be released somewhere around when Dude Nuke 'em will be. It's an external plug-and-play graphic card that sits in a box that you can put in Desktop video cards in (even 2 and crossfire them!) then it redirects the output back to your monitor or an external screen if you would like. 

 

June 6, 2010 5:58:53 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting OMG_BlackHatHedgehog,
Your best solution is to wait for ATI's XGP solution to be released somewhere around when Dude Nuke 'em will be. It's an external plug-and-play graphic card that sits in a box that you can put in Desktop video cards in (even 2 and crossfire them!) then it redirects the output back to your monitor or an external screen if you would like. 

 

1. WHEN IS THIS WONDROUS DEVICE TO BE RELEASED?!

2. HOW MUCH IS THIS WONDROUS DEVICE EXPECTED TO COST?!

June 6, 2010 6:12:22 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

The techonology was developed late '08 and there are a few technical demoes of it floating around. ATI has the technology developped. However, the only notebook manufacture the special port it required when the Alpha Version came out was Samsung, so it wasn't well-accepted.

They ended up redoing it and currently it can work with the special port found on ATI Radeon 3000 HD series notebook video cards (my Sony FW Vaio has it). There is also a mini-PCI card that provides the given port.

There was another rumor around the internet at large that they may be re-releasing the technology to be more publically available again this Summer, and shipping it with a 5850 video card to start with (which is a very nice $200 one. I have two of them in my main desktop in a CrossFire and I can play DoW II across multiple monitors at the top-of-the-line graphics level with full auto-aliasing and I've only met one person out of roughly 100 online games who loads the game faster than me (though that is mostly because I have a SSD).

You too could do this because it should have 2 slots. You can also share it between a notebook and a desktop (have both devices plug into it) and then you can actually upgrade "both" without having to buy new video cards for both. The box is also pretty small, though it does require a power source, I think. 

It costed $300-350 before, but it shipped with a crappy card (~$100). So if they ship it with a nice card, probably 350-400 since I'm sure the technology they use to make the magic boxes is cheaper now.t

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATI_XGP

http://www.amd.com/us/products/technologies/ati-xgp/Pages/ati-xgp.aspx

June 6, 2010 10:11:06 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting OMG_BlackHatHedgehog,
The techonology was developed late '08 and there are a few technical demoes of it floating around. ATI has the technology developped. However, the only notebook manufacture the special port it required when the Alpha Version came out was Samsung, so it wasn't well-accepted.

They ended up redoing it and currently it can work with the special port found on ATI Radeon 3000 HD series notebook video cards (my Sony FW Vaio has it). There is also a mini-PCI card that provides the given port.

There was another rumor around the internet at large that they may be re-releasing the technology to be more publically available again this Summer, and shipping it with a 5850 video card to start with (which is a very nice $200 one. I have two of them in my main desktop in a CrossFire and I can play DoW II across multiple monitors at the top-of-the-line graphics level with full auto-aliasing and I've only met one person out of roughly 100 online games who loads the game faster than me (though that is mostly because I have a SSD).

You too could do this because it should have 2 slots. You can also share it between a notebook and a desktop (have both devices plug into it) and then you can actually upgrade "both" without having to buy new video cards for both. The box is also pretty small, though it does require a power source, I think. 

It costed $300-350 before, but it shipped with a crappy card (~$100). So if they ship it with a nice card, probably 350-400 since I'm sure the technology they use to make the magic boxes is cheaper now.t

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATI_XGP

http://www.amd.com/us/products/technologies/ati-xgp/Pages/ati-xgp.aspx

Okay, so just to be clear, what kind of specific port is required for it?

Additionally, I now officially hate you because you can play DoWII at max graphics level. You sir, make me want to steal your computer. This would simultaneously be my vengeance and benefit.

Anyways, here's hoping that I've got the cash to get an XGP. It'd make my life a hell of a lot easier.

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