Kestrel's Hybrid Oak 2.0

By Ke5trel on February 11, 2010 6:14:12 PM from

The meta has shifted quite a bit since I posted my first Hybrid build here.

Since then it's become important to get Shield III at level 7-8 so that you can lockdown enemy portals without fear of interruption.

That makes it hard to cram Spirits/minions into an effective Oak build before level 10, and most games are decided by that point.

So I'm going to post my WIP Hybrid Oak build with a caveat, as follows:

*This isn't the miracle build Hybrid used to be before gameplay evolved. Under given circumstances it's more effective than a typical Assassin Oak build or Minion Oak build, and that's about all I can claim. I'll go over what makes it a good build later on.

Favor -

BoTF if tanking. Anklet for fast self and minions. Horn for unkillable minions. Vial for staying power in the face of attrition. Wand for burst self and minion heals. Ring for fierce minions. Cloak for escapes. The nice thing about this build is you can branch out a bit from HP as king. Me, I still go for Blood because I like to brawl, but it's down to your playstyle.

Starting Items -

Monks, one mana pot (wait for the pot, it puts you 5 seconds behind but lets your mana last twice as long)

Skills -

1. Shield
2. Ward
3. Penitence
4. Ward II
5. Surge
6. Shield II
7. Shield III
8. Ward III
9. Save
10. Surge II / Ward IV
11-14. Penitence II-IV
15. Surge III

Gear -

Vlemish Helm
Mino and Siege I
Unbreakable Boots
Plenor Helm
Nimoth Plate

Upgrades -

Priests/Angels or Catas

The above + supply of Sigil/Port/Lock is probably all you can afford, because you won't be rocking the kills with this build. If you do end up with a bunch of gold you can upgrade your idol siege and healers and get a Wand of Speed or tank up with Nemoth Ring or Orb of Defiance.

Wand of Speed is nice because it increases not only your speed, which will be handy for portal grabs, but also the move speed of your minions. That's important because they can't hit something while chasing it.

Orb is good for this Oak the same way it is for a Tower Rook. You can sit back and relax while your abilities cooldown and your bishops heal you and the flag changes ownership and your minions take a giant bite out of the guy trying to beat you up..

Flavor -

Death by 1000 cuts. You want to bring out as many small, angry, confusing minions as you can and focus them all on a single DG or tower and you want to do all of this the first time you come back from the shop. You can achieve that with a single level of each idol minion (minos too, for the extra bodies) and two levels of spirits. That's 12 minions for around 1500 gold and 2 skill points, pretty good value for so much cannon fodder.

Once you have your little army out you can hold flags against most DGs and destroy enemy towers without risk, or support allies from across the map.

You gave up your primary Nuke (maxed Penitence) and your passives (Divine Justice, Soul Power) to get that, though, so make sure you have staying power and burst damage coming from elsewhere.

You are saving Penitence exclusively for interrupts.

It takes a while for minion damage to show, so you have enough HP and armor to last until your opponent has to back off. If you see an incoming gank shield and port out, or Orb and chill while your minions eat lunch.

How a 3v3 Cata game plays out -

You are usually at Forti flag because you can hold it. If you are against a TB or Occ i.e. good AoE ask to switch lanes, you won't be as effective. As soon as your cannon fodder is up (level 5-6) you are going to start pushing hard on the lane tower. If it has a DG guarding it focus your minions on him until he backs off.

Rinse, repeat. Once lane tower is down you are sending your minions repeatedly to take down portal towers. If your opponents act quickly to defend portal towers then you can decoy by grabbing at the portal and Shield/porting out when it gets hot. Do this a couple times and you have a clear lane to the portal.

Once the portal is open you lock it, your team gets grunts, you hold your home portals, and you either assign your minions to defend the portal or take out more towers. If your opponents are good they will lockdown the portal you opened. Fine. Switch lanes and open up the other side or just wait the lock out while farming.

If your team backs you up you should win right here.

Speaking of backup - throughout play you want to keep your teammates from being ganked. That means you port to them with Shield ready when they hit 2k hp, not when they hit 400 hp..

Who this counters, hard - DA, Snipe Reg, Assassin Erb, Rook, Sedna, Assassin Oak (until Surge II)
Who this mostly works against - UB, Minion Erb, Minion Oak, AF Reg, Assassin Oak (After Surge II), QoT
Who counters this - TB, Occ

What I like about this build - You have your minions set up with 1500g and level 4. If you want to drift back towards an Assassin build from that you can without issue, but you get the benefits of all those minions throughout play. As a hybrid you can sharpen your minions into little knives, without sacrificing all of your survivability to do it. And finally you can ignore Pent II and up if you want to and just fill in Morale to shift into a full Minion build.

Also, this build kills roaches dead. I'm looking at you, DA

What I don't like about this build - you can't set up Penitence ganks and you don't have the stamina Divine Justice gives you. The lack of gank assists and last-hits means your income will be lower than other Oaks, which means you can't tank as aggressively in most games. Finally, Oculus was pretty much made to counter this build.

REPLAY

Thoughts, comments?

Thanks for reading
Kestrel

+118 Karma | 37 Replies

Kestrel,

Well-written as usual. It's a decent build. This build does not counter a minion Oak, however. It will also be decently countered by an assassin Oak if he ranks divine justice early and buys Nature's Reckoning. In fact, I would say that a gangsta minion Oak build will school any other type of Oak. I want to be the spiritual successor of PeterDumpTruck, so my opinion might be biased.

Also, a ground spikes QoT will destroy Oak's minions regardless of the build.

Occulus isn't that much of a problem on Cataract. He has serious mana issues early game, and your minions will be stronger by the endgame.

Besides that, however, I find little to argue with your build. Nice post! Maybe I will post my minion build with micro tips.

Also, for the record, Oak has the best minions in the game. If you are reading this and don't use them ever, then shame on you! His minions can practically carry your entire team during the endgame. Don't be afraid of a tiny extra bit of microing.

Minion oak is sick, but I think your hybrid is better than using morale. Oak's minions just pop out of the ground so they don't need to live too long to totally destroy everything. The % damage increase and slow would let your spirits deal crazy damage and maybe(?) chase while attacking. I always end up playing with assassins on my team, so I may try out your build.

Yeah, if you have only assassins on your team, you cannot use a pure minion build.

As long as I get a priest, you can do anything you want as far as im concerned.

I played somebody that did this and I was oak. He may have been noob (but so am I). I went pen, shield, save, pen+shield, surge, save, pen+shield. I walked straight into the back portals and locked. Then ganked whenever they tried to take it back. His silly spirits were just annoying and I didn't ever take down the towers. His teammates were erebus and UB (mirror)...but he couldn't support their kills like I could. The level 3 penitence with surge at level 7 just really makes those two kill so much faster.

Maybe I will post my minion build with micro tips.

Do it! Was the 2v2 we played your minion build or a hybrid?

As long as I get a priest, you can do anything you want as far as im concerned.

It's actually pretty funny you say this, I need to get out of the habit of 'm' selecting targets, because that pulls the monk off my allies and I have to re-assign

Yah your build is classic Assassin Oak. If you have the replay feel free to post it, see if we can't critique your opposition..

Generally with UB/LE/Oak mirror I'm gonna go Assassin too. The gank potential sorta outweighs the advantages of a minion build in this case, and it's probably the second strongest 3 person team even without the spirits.

Edit: might be worth your time to sink a point into Divine Justice early, with assassin it's usually level 2 or 3 for me..

Epi definitely has some good micro tips. I do have a sugestion for micro though. Set your Funcition keys up for demigod and minion control. Ie. F1 for your demi, F2 for healers/monks, F3 for special, F4 for all minions. This way it makes it easier to control each division. What i like to do is direct all minions to a tower but pull my healers back. My downfall for that is sometimes i will hit 2 or 4 when i want to hit #3 for shield lol.

There are definitely some problems when going with any type of hybrid minion build. Laning with an occulus, torch bearer, QoT or tower rook is very difficult because their AOE wipes out the minions too quickly unless you add stats or other health stacking (inwhich case it becomes a minion build). (Too bad hauberk is bugged) Splitting of the monks is also very difficult due to the additional steps required in microing the far side monk. Level III penn w/ SoF II + AA does a lot more DPS than the minions.

The benefits of having minions is that you can siege (towers or another demi) without taking any damage.

I would recommend getting Nimoths & plenor before unbreakables though. The additional health + armor seems to be more effective in a fight and the additional mana + regen of plenor is quite effective too. Adding unbreakables after those are purchased is just a bit of icing.

The really nice thing about this build is that you have +damage through your spirits when mana is non-existant in levels 1 thru 5 yet you get the burst and melee damage as well.

As always Ke5tral, its a good build and well written too.

It's a tossup for me between Unbreakable and Plenor. I sometimes need the mana more than the health, but I don't usually need Nimoth until a bit later in play unless I'm consistently targeted in brawl or fighting a bunch of minions. I like Unbreakable because it gives me some flexibility - if I'm low on gold I can see which I need more before committing to HP or Mana items..

Epi will confirm I'm rusty as anything with minions now, been playing Assassins and Assassin Generals for a few months and it's hard to transition back to something like micro ^^

Incidentally, Orb of Defiance is awesome

Nice build although yes there is a build that is of course twice as good.

Also assasin oak will not even come close to beating a minion oak, even with surge and dj and whatever shitty aoe ring you stocked this time. It doesnt work(yes it works level 15+ huzzah), and those who claim otherwise are just ignorant.

Quoting lifekatana,

reply 9

Nice build although yes there is a build that is of course twice as good.

Till I meet it.

Nice build although yes there is a build that is of course twice as good.

As an early hybrid? What does that look like?

This is going to be a fairly long post.

Hybrid Oak and Minion Oak are two completely separate Demigods. If you play one, you will forget how to play the other. They involve completely different gear and talent specs. If you are good at one, it will take time to become good at another. They have different survivability and different target priorities. Your hybrid build involves health stacking and mana stacking in order to tank. My build involves zero health items, zero mana helms, and lots of speed items.

If you want to try a minion build, experiment with it in single player. Find the best combinations of items and target priorities for your minions. Figure out which idols are the best ones to buy. I'm not quite ready to post my build here yet, but I assure you that I will once I am done having fun with my secret strategies. In fact, I just made some significant improvements to it last night. I'll give you guys one big hint. Your total item cost needs to be about in the same price range as a cheap health stacking build. If you have an specific question about item choices, I will be willing to help, but half of the fun is just coming up with the build yourself.

Tips:

Here is my first tip: when attacking a tower, press "M" and then right click on your target. Immediately after that press "I" and micro your spirits behind your idol minions so they don't receive the first hit. Then tell your spirits to attack the target. If you time it just right, your idol minions will get hit first leaving your spirits to do and additional 3-4 seconds of damage without getting hit. In simpler terms, "Minions forward, spirits back, spirits forward."

Second tip: When possible, send your minions to attack a tower while your creeps are hitting it. Micro your spirits so that the creeps get hit first by the tower.

Third tip: While sharing monks, using "M" is a horrible idea. Drag a box around your minions and your Demigod. Tell them to attack a target. Press "H" and micro your Demigod back. This will allow you to move your minions without moving your priest on the other side of the map.

Fourth tip: The last point of Raise Dead ward adds crazy armor to your minions. Set it up in the range of a tower to give your spirits extra protection. It will also allow you to convert your idol minions and creeps into spirits.

Also, Teseer is correct. Ice TB will either counter a minion build, or they will cancel each other out. I never use a minion build against a TB or QoT. Good thing few players choose those Demigods.

Kestrel, that was my minion build. You guys clearly won that round, although I feel like that had more to do with how easily we let ourselves get ganked than with the merits of either of our builds.

P.S, Katana, stop claiming to have secret builds if you aren't going to post them. If it's some sort of hybrid it will get raped by my build.

Really good micro tips, thanks Epi

Kestrel, that was my minion build. You guys clearly won that round, although I feel like that had more to do with your better coordination than with the merits of either of our builds.

I blame Renzokuken, I certainly wasn't doing much that game ^^

My impression is that 1v1 you could push me off a flag every time and just crushed towers, and in team battles the hybrid's staying power won out for the kill. Again though, that could just be coordinated UB/Oak vs. Rook/Oak. I'll have to watch the replay, and we'll play again soon.

Incidentally it was refreshing to see an experienced Rook use Structural Transfer

P.S, Katana, stop claiming to have secret builds if you aren't going to post them.

Yes I'm sorry, I really was gonna post them but my gamesystem is down for the moment so I dont have the replays.

Anyway I don't mind sharing a hybrid oak. Maybe when I have time I'll make a full writeup.

1. ward

2. soul

3.pent

4.ward

5.pent

6.save or earlier shield/surge

7.pent&ward

8.shield or surge

9. save or surge or shield

10. ward and pent or surge II.

11. shield or dj and surge

12.shield or dj and surge

Basically this oak pushes very hard early game, having way more damage than regular oaks and being able to push towers quickly when the opportunity arises. Yes no shield till level 11/12 but it can push off most demigods pretty well, you might have some problems with UB(but hey who doesn't;-) and oculus is iritating.

Again some people might have problems with no shield, however remeber that when you need to use shield(cept for port locking) you got ganked and you were outplayed.

uhh "beating" a minion Oak involves holding a flag and not getting pushed back to shop by minions. Not killing him or whatever. If you get high surge and NR and high DJ you can stay out significantly longer than you would otherwise hency why you are "beating" him.

As an early hybrid? What does that look like?

Favor: BotF

1. Pentitence I

2. Ward I

3. Shield I

4. Ward II

5. Surge of Faith I

6. Divine Justice I (allows you to spam Surge with only one helm)

7. Ward III

8. Shield II

9. SAVE (or Shield III)

10. Ward IV + Surge II

11. Shield III (or Surge II)

12. Soul Power I

13. Morale I

14. SAVE

15. Frenzy + Surge III

16-20. Morale II - V

Playstyle:

This build is ... extremely pathetically weak early game. The only demigod you will be able to really fight very-early game is an Assassin Oak (since they can use all of one Pentitence before going oom) or a DA/Reg. You can run forward and him hit but let your Monks and Spirits wittle him down first. Your Spirits are weak (no Morale) so be careful about that.

Most Oaks "mature" around level 7 or 8. This Oak matures around 10/11 to be crazy rape-face depending on how dependent on Shield III abuse you are. It's also kinda expensive but can be played on a budget just fine, you'll probably just never see Gloves.

Items:

1. Gladiator Gloves (poor man's Ring of Divine Might) -> 8. Gloves of Del-Fur

2. Siege Gunners + Sigil (HOLD. DO NOT USE. Gives +100 minion HP)

3. Scaled Helm -> 6. Vlemish

4. Banded Armor -> 9. Haubrek of Life

5. Unbreakable Boots

7. Nimoth

10. Citadel Uprgrades/Better Siege Gunners/Orb of Defiance/Bishops/Godplate/Whatever

Since Ward III gives you +400 Armor you don't have to stack Armor. Typically Nimoths + Ward III is enough though you will still be somewhat weak.

The /only/ ability you spam is Surge of Faith (and Ward but that is assumed). Pentitence is just as an interrupt or a finishing blow. You don't have close to enough mana to use it otherwise.

Note that the reason most people play Assassin Oak is:

1- It counters non-morale minions quite well once you get points in DJ and Surge

2- It is awesome at saving buddies

3- Shield III abuse

4- One of the best demigods in 3v3 clusterfucks. Great single target damage, AoE friendly buffs, escape mechanisms, etc.

This build is /not/ good in 3v3 clusterfucks. You have to kite down your enemies before you engage. (This is a huge mistake a lot of people also make. They run through your spirits instead of kiting them before fighting you). You can only play this build with competent teammates that don't require shield-ports.

You can destory towers great and hold flags as well. I used to get Soul Power @ 3 instead of Shield just because of that. But SP isn't super useful until you've got at LEAST 2 points in Ward and really 3 :-/ so I've started getting it later. Still, you're built for 1v1 and low AoE 2v2.

Why Morale? Well, you're trying to keep to 1 helm so you can't keep Gloves of Del-Fur and a decent amount of HP. Morale improves your minion army pretty dramatically, doesn't require mana, and if you fully level it up you can level the citadel with just spirits. You could get points in DJ or get Shield IV instead but the thing is that Shield IV costs more mana (which is bad) and you don't want to be trapped in a position where you have enough mana for Shield III but not Shield IV. DJ doesn't work when minions kill creeps. Pentitence is way too expensive mana-wise.

Orb of Defiance is awesomely awesome. +500 HP/Armor AND 5 seconds of immunity (on top of Shield) to let your minions kite? Fuck yes. Assuming you're on the mana side anyway you really don't need locks. Or drop the sigil if you're feeling adventurous.

Again some people might have problems with no shield, however remeber that when you need to use shield(cept for port locking) you got ganked and you were outplayed.

That is also basically my philosophy regarding Shield. However, it's team utility is still huge and so I consider it important, just not as critical as some players do. Which is why I do Assassin builds when sharing a lane.

The issue with lifekatana's build is that is has no escape mechanism. It seems like it would have a really hard time against an Ereb + CoN Oak or Occulus. iono. It seems like it's great 1v1 and all but no team utility whatsoever. No DJ :-/

Also, reason I get Pent level 1 and not Ward is because I don't like having a full mana-bar, and if you run to the mana side you are pratically level 2 before a creep wave walks up to you. It also lets me switch to Assassin easily.

You must be a good RTS player Hedgie. The first thing you're taught is that stockpiling resources does you no good.

Why u dont use soul power ??? At least lvl 1. You gain more damage with every spirit. I think minions build with oak is nothing without soul power. At start of the game its not necessary...but at least lvl 8 or something. Get ward III at lvl 10 and ward IV at lvl 11. Then u will have the 3 last peni from lvl12-14.

Oak has so many good skills, you really can't spec him wrong.

Quoting primz,

reply 18

I used to get SP @ 3, like I said, but I think the option of getting Shield III @ 9 if needed, and getting Shield III @ 11 instead of 12 PLUS the fact that SP is more-or-less useless until you have at least Ward III unless you're hitting towers means investing an early point in Shield instead of SP is worth it (btw, raping towers with early SP is great. You do like 300 damage a hit. But your build already rapes towers, you don't need to spend MORE points raping towers better. You also aren't doing a lot of AA damage).

oak has so many good skills, you really can't spec him wrong.

Basically. His "worst" skills are SP 2 & 3, Last Stand and Rally.

Rally you never get in 1v1 but it's fine in 4v4's or any high-death game

Last Stand is still useful in an Assassin build for "last man standing" portal fights and also in Fortress mode or whatnot.

SP can even be useful in a no-spirit build for levels 19,20 after you have nothing better to spend it on (you really get more benefit with 2 points in SP because Weapon Damage is so huge late game than 1 point in Ward + SP or 2 points in Ward). SP 2 & 3 are rarely worth it for a minion build, however (ironically).

And you still get them. Oak is awesome like that. He has no useless skills.

In 1vs1 its brutal yes.

Hehe Hedgie play me with a CoN Oak and an erebus. It will be laughably easy for me. I think I even have a replay of hybrid oak vs CoN oak(amazing hero) and an erebus. Spirits just munch up everything. Though yes Oculus is very very iritating.

Replay added. Nice to see some alternate builds going up

From what I heard no shield got you raped in the face against pacov that one Levi game. Blamed in on Trouser though...

uhm lol. I did play with shield(not full tho) that game, but you do you know it wasent a serious game(ie big PUB'? We had a TB/Reg, and trouser didnt play that great no(he died 5 times or so). Note also that I didnt die, and got majority of kills+ assists on my team. And note that the enemy team consisted of 3 generals and reg(erebus, oak, OC). How can you even seriously tell me that this build is inferior to shield oak because I was beaten by triple general?

How can you even seriously tell me that this build is inferior to shield oak because I was beaten by triple general?

'Cause I just did and it's the internet.

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Kestrel's Hybrid Oak 2.0