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Steam Horror Story

Return of the Subscriber Agreement

By on December 22, 2009 3:58:41 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I have been a big fan of Steam and before this event and if I had an option between Steam, D2D, or Impulse I would almost have always have sided with Steam but after my most recent experience with them it is only now I realize how by using Steam I had trapped myself in a corner.

 Earlier this week I had purchased a game that was on sale as an early gift for a family member to hold him off till his real one arrived late for Christmas. I didn't know it at the time but because of some glitch in Steam's systems the gifting failed but my CC was still charged and I was none the wiser. Since I told my brother all about the game, hyped him up, got him excited, but he never received it he ended up buying it for himself. I saw him playing it on Steam and thought all was well but after asking him how he liked my gift only to get a puzzled look in return.

 Because of the way Steam works if you buy multiple copies of a game Steam simply eats your money for the 2nd copy and you get nothing instead of crediting your account or giving you an extra serial. I didn't want that to happen so as soon as I learned about this I immediately contacted steam support for a refund. The first time I got a forum response because apparently their gift system fails often and resending is a common occurence.

 Took another support request for them to realize the issue was not in the fact I couldn't send but the fact I couldn't send and because of that he already owns the game I wanted to give him to which the customer service guy replied that they can't give me a refund or even credit cause according to their Subscriber Agreement any money I give them is theirs and they don't have to give me a return because I am not in the European Union which has laws that require a 30 day grace period.

 So I am left in an odd situation. I paid for a game to be given to my brother, they failed to deliver my game, and now they are refusing to return my money either. Upon looking at the forums I found this wasn't the first time this has happened either and when one guy tried to contact his credit card company for a refund they banned his account for "fraud" and disabled access to over $500 in games.

 I didn't want to risk loosing some +$300 games I had tied to my account so I was saving my credit card company as a last resort. It took no less than 6 support messages exchanged to get my refund where they tried my patience continually pointing to how their Subscriber Agreement makes it OK that they can take my money, not deliever a product, and ban me if I protest.

 I tried to remain polite through the entire process but they were totally unresponsive and the sheer frustration that some stupid EULA makes it ok to commit what in any other industry would be fraud infurtiated me. By the 6th message I had given up and laid down basically said that if they did not refund me for the product they failed to deliver I would file a complaint with the BBB, my local newspaper, and contact my credit card company. My $300 in games be damned I as gonna do it and was already researching Small Claims Court as a solution if they took my games away after my CC company reversed the charges.

 I eventually got my money back but only after threatening them and the final line of my message reading:
"The money means nothing to me but at this point it is a matter of principle. What part of YOU RUINED CHRISTMAS don't you understand?"
I was pretty worked up now that I looked back at it. After typing this I had to wipe tears of frustration out of my eyes before finally clicking send.

 Even after I got my money back it seems they just had to have the last laugh. They emailed me "Please note in the future that Steam purchases, per the Steam Subscriber Agreement, are not refundable - this refund was issued as a one-time customer service gesture." and just had to rub that stupid Subscriber Agreement into my face one last time.

 I find it appalling that a company could have such utter contempt against their customers after they have their money locked in. Just because you are online, it is digital distribution, and we gotta agree to EULAs and Subscriber Agreements does not mean that you can take peoples money, tell them to sod off, and do whatever you want because they agreed to your terms. At the end of the day you are still a retailer, I am still a customer, and taking money but not delivering a product is still fraud... Subscriber Agreement or not.

I don’t think I am ever going to spend another dollar on Steam because next time I have an issue, they refuse me a refund, and chargeback seems like my only solution that’s another dollar they are going to leverage against me in the threat of banning my account for fraud when they themselves are the frauds.

Edit:
I can't fix it can some mod please make the text readable for the GalCiv guys?

0 Karma | 64 Replies
December 24, 2009 7:48:56 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Kodiak888,
A bit on topic, the largest problem I have with Impulse, Steam, etc, is that you are made very aware that you are only buying a liscense for the game. You don't own the game. Before, you had a disk and could play the game whenever you'd like. Now DRM and restrictive means can loose your access to your games and have little recourse to ever play them again. IMO, this is the true nature of DRM, and pirating is just a flimsy excuse. If there's a possibility that a company can take away my privelidges to play a game that I legally bought, you can bet they won't see my money.

100% agree.  I have a standard rant about Steam, Impulse, etc., but I'll spare you the details.  Suffice it to say that I am completely against how these "services" diminish consumer rights by linking games to accounts and thus making it impossible to re-sell  or give away even boxed, retail versions.  It also makes you subject to having your gaming "privileges" revoked if Steam or Impulse goes out of business, falsely accuses you of having a hacked account, disagrees with something that you say on their forums, or any BS excuse.   Steam is the worst of these "services," since it has to be running in the background as you play.  Still, Dawn of War 2 is my first and last Steam game, and Demigod is my first and last Impulse game.  If a game has more than a basic disk check or an offline keycode as DRM, then I simply won't buy it.

P.S. Before anyone says that DRM does not come with the disk version of Demigod (which I have), do remember that you cannot patch the game (or even play LAN) without tieing it to an Impulse account, and thus killing the re-sell and gifting value.  And honestly, who would want the unpatched version of Demigod, even if it doesn't come with DRM?

P.P.S.  Before anyone repeats the lie that Steam will unlock DRMed games if they go out of business, have a look at their EULA (http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/), which states: (2.A.) "You understand that neither this Agreement nor the terms associated with a particular Subscription entitles you to future updates, new versions or other enhancements of the Steam Software associated with a particular Subscription although Valve may choose to provide such updates, etc. in its sole discretion."  In plain English, once you buy the game, Steam doesn't owe you a damn thing, not even an update of its own client software.

December 25, 2009 12:00:42 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting shayde0007,
I worked in online gaming myself, and when you get a forced refund on your credit card it is a mark against the company you do the "charge-back" on. Almost any company you do this to will permanently ban you, and I doubt they'll have any sympathy for you.

 

As far as the online game downloads options, I've recently changed my mind about them. I plan on buying all the games I can in-store rather than online. When you have the game in your hand you dont need to worry about some online jerks banning you and taking all your games with them. I have over 30 games I've bought online from d2d, steam, and impulse. Generally if there is a great sale then I'll grab a game, but when buying new I try to buy from the store these days. Also - if the company ever goes bankrupt they could shut down the service - that would suck.

You're mistaking what a forced refund is in this case, as in Stardock forced refunds on some players and banned them from the service. It wasn't chargeback. Same with some Steam cases, but if a company won't give you the game or is so late in delivering that the game is already purchased, and refuses to refund you, it seems to put a customer between a rock and a hard place. You either eat the cost of the game, having got nothing for it so essentially you've given them money for nothing, or you make a stink and risk being perma banned from the storefront and all the games you purchased. I think there should be some consumer protection in between those two options.

December 25, 2009 6:01:48 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Quoting Nesrie,

You're mistaking what a forced refund is in this case, as in Stardock forced refunds on some players and banned them from the service. It wasn't chargeback. Same with some Steam cases, but if a company won't give you the game or is so late in delivering that the game is already purchased, and refuses to refund you, it seems to put a customer between a rock and a hard place. You either eat the cost of the game, having got nothing for it so essentially you've given them money for nothing, or you make a stink and risk being perma banned from the storefront and all the games you purchased. I think there should be some consumer protection in between those two options.

 

Yes, that is a very reasonable expectation. Although, at least with single player games, you have "options"

December 25, 2009 2:21:04 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting the_hunger,

Quoting Kodiak888, reply 1A bit on topic, the largest problem I have with Impulse, Steam, etc, is that you are made very aware that you are only buying a liscense for the game. You don't own the game. Before, you had a disk and could play the game whenever you'd like. Now DRM and restrictive means can loose your access to your games and have little recourse to ever play them again. IMO, this is the true nature of DRM, and pirating is just a flimsy excuse. If there's a possibility that a company can take away my privelidges to play a game that I legally bought, you can bet they won't see my money.

100% agree.  I have a standard rant about Steam, Impulse, etc., but I'll spare you the details.  Suffice it to say that I am completely against how these "services" diminish consumer rights by linking games to accounts and thus making it impossible to re-sell  or give away even boxed, retail versions.  It also makes you subject to having your gaming "privileges" revoked if Steam or Impulse goes out of business, falsely accuses you of having a hacked account, disagrees with something that you say on their forums, or any BS excuse.   Steam is the worst of these "services," since it has to be running in the background as you play.  Still, Dawn of War 2 is my first and last Steam game, and Demigod is my first and last Impulse game.  If a game has more than a basic disk check or an offline keycode as DRM, then I simply won't buy it.

P.S. Before anyone says that DRM does not come with the disk version of Demigod (which I have), do remember that you cannot patch the game (or even play LAN) without tieing it to an Impulse account, and thus killing the re-sell and gifting value.  And honestly, who would want the unpatched version of Demigod, even if it doesn't come with DRM?

P.P.S.  Before anyone repeats the lie that Steam will unlock DRMed games if they go out of business, have a look at their EULA (http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/), which states: (2.A.) "You understand that neither this Agreement nor the terms associated with a particular Subscription entitles you to future updates, new versions or other enhancements of the Steam Software associated with a particular Subscription although Valve may choose to provide such updates, etc. in its sole discretion."  In plain English, once you buy the game, Steam doesn't owe you a damn thing, not even an update of its own client software.

Agreed. This is why I'm a huge fan of retail, and only buy off of Steam or Impulse when it is absolutely necessary. The companies can spout whatever they want about legal stuff and fine print, but it does not and never will change the fact that they are screwing you over when the time comes.

December 25, 2009 3:30:23 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting vindKtiv,


Agreed. This is why I'm a huge fan of retail, and only buy off of Steam or Impulse when it is absolutely necessary. The companies can spout whatever they want about legal stuff and fine print, but it does not and never will change the fact that they are screwing you over when the time comes.

I am sure it has been mentioned before, but the EULA's are very suspect, as in a lot of people don't think they stand a chance in hell in court, if it ever went that far. I am not sure it has gone that far, but these small print documents you can't even read until after you open your software (physical form) probably wouldn't hold much water. Buying retail doesn't necessarily fix the issue. So many PC games have online play, online content, and/or accounts to get access to patches, DLC or just to be ignored by customer support (IE, some companies you have to sign up to post your issues on a forum but the company itself rarely actually steps in to help you withyour problem). I mean I still buy mostly retail versions for similar reasons and because it's still cheaper most of the time, but a lot of PC games (not all) already limit their resell values because of connections to some online account. Personally, I stopped by used games years ago, even before some pencil pusher decide to come up with anti-consumer ideals like online activation limits, online activation and online accounts being necessary to play or update (and in my mind, if its required for updates, it's required. When was the last time a PC game was released in such a perfect condition you didn't need to update it?).

Between the two, Impulse seems more setup to allow us to figure out a way to have our games without Impulse should Impulse be unavailable. Valv's verbal promise means nothing, 100% not enforcable, and they have games pretty entwined in that client of theirs.

December 25, 2009 3:50:44 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

I think's its pretty unbelievable how these software publishers think they can make up their own laws simply by forcing you to agree to an EULA.  It's just ridiculous and they are only making fools of themselves.  EULAs are completely meaningless and they should spare us the trouble of making us agree to them during sofwtare installation.  If they want' to make a point they should simply provide a link to the *actual* copyright laws that apply in whatever country.

There's lots of things these publishers do that could be considered violations of consumer rights laws, but who's going to put a leash on them.  Like it was stated before, you would have to sue them with *your* money and *your* time.  Who's going to do that?

December 25, 2009 4:32:00 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting CraigHB,
I think's its pretty unbelievable how these software publishers think they can make up their own laws simply by forcing you to agree to an EULA.  It's just ridiculous and they are only making fools of themselves.  EULAs are completely meaningless and they should spare us the trouble of making us agree to them during sofwtare installation.  If they want' to make a point they should simply provide a link to the *actual* copyright laws that apply in whatever country.

There's lots of things these publishers do that could be considered violations of consumer rights laws, but who's going to put a leash on them.  Like it was stated before, you would have to sue them with *your* money and *your* time.  Who's going to do that?

Well someone usually does in the end. It takes a long time, and we might be stuck with a number of class-action pennies for the conusmers, dollars for the lawyers type no admitting fault or forcing change deals first, but it's only a matter of time before one of them really takes it too far and the whole thing goes kablooey. There is a tiny chance something might show up in congress and the industry suddenly shifts trying to avoid regulation... seen that a few times.

December 25, 2009 6:08:44 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

 I've had very few problems with Stardock or Impulse. And, to their credit, all have been solved. I've only bought boxed games from Impulse (where they send you the disc) that weren't available at retail, and have never bought a game on Steam though, and the chances of me ever doing as are slim. Their DRM bothers me to no end, as well as having to have logged into my Steam account to play Single Player games.... but lets not get started or I'll go on a 9 page tangent ending with a Death to GFWL chant!......

 

 Stardock seems like a great company and I believe it when they say that if they ever go under they'll release the patches and ways for us to enjoy our games fully without the need for their dead services. At least, I believe that they believe it. 10 years ago EA was a kind and awesome company that could do no harm too. When push comes to shove, and the chips aren't adding up, no company is going to spend tons of extra money to make sure that we get to continue enjoying our old and outdated products. I would love to be wrong, but no amount of words will convince me. When steam or stardock go under and do it, I'll eat my shoe in a cold broth and personally apologize to all ten million members. Until then, I'm unhappy about it and will continue to bitch and vote with my wallet.

 

 Any sort of lawsuit against a gaming company for their promises to the users would be laughed out of court. Good luck quoting a forum from 2006 in a lawsuit in 2019 that you can't play any of your Impulse games anymore since it can't connect to it's server, and you can't even install your disc based game without that connection. You spend more on your left sock than you'd stand to make.

December 25, 2009 6:57:02 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Kodiak888,
 

 Any sort of lawsuit against a gaming company for their promises to the users would be laughed out of court. Good luck quoting a forum from 2006 in a lawsuit in 2019 that you can't play any of your Impulse games anymore since it can't connect to it's server, and you can't even install your disc based game without that connection. You spend more on your left sock than you'd stand to make.

No. 1 : EULA are not gaming specific, therefore trying to specify a gaming company is completely unnecessary. EULA are attached to software licenses, amongst other things.

No. 2 : EULA are not promises, they are very likely contracts that won't hold water in court. We're not talking hype here or forum promice, we're talking about the legal documents attached to these licenses which are very likely not going to hold up in court.

No. 3: Did you drink too much eggnogg or did you even bother to look at what we are talking about?

If you give Steam 60 USD dollars and steam says screw you, you aren't getting anything for that 60 dollars, and if you tell your credit card company you're having a problem with us, we're going to ban you from your account and all your games. Yeah, there is an legal issue with that.

If a company like Steam  goes down and takes all their games with it, it's not really am if but a when, there will probably be some serious questions about the viability of that business model and some legal questions as well. You might want to snort and roll your eyes and pretend like the only people asking these questions are a handful of people on forums, but you're not being realistic if you do. Consumer rights when it comes to software licenses is not a simple or even a small issue, it's been building for years. Most the legal systems are still several steps behind in dealing with digital content.

December 25, 2009 8:28:16 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting vieuxchat,




You never owned any game. Even when you had a disk.

And with impulse you can archive your game on a cd/DVD/whatever. (I don't know for steam or D2D)

 

That's true, but what you're missing is that with a disk, you can reinstall at will (till the disk wears out).  That's a problem if say you move to an area with poor (overpriced) internet access and say your hard drive crashes.  Then you'll wish you had bought hard copy versions of your games.

December 25, 2009 9:26:30 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Steam deserves to die. this horror story only confirms my anti-steam beliefs.

frack steam.

December 25, 2009 10:33:40 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

With such attractive holiday deals, can anyone stop Steam? If this continues, Valve will have trust-like control over the PC gaming market.

December 25, 2009 11:09:21 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Quoting GoodGame,

That's true, but what you're missing is that with a disk, you can reinstall at will (till the disk wears out).  That's a problem if say you move to an area with poor (overpriced) internet access and say your hard drive crashes.  Then you'll wish you had bought hard copy versions of your games.

Backup!

Works great for Steam, though not so great for Impulse right now.

December 25, 2009 11:13:53 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting arunodayt,

Backup!

Works great for Steam, though not so great for Impulse right now.

Whenever I try to restore Orange Box backups I have to verify the GCF files anyway, or the games won't launch. Thus far, nothing beats the offline install/backup experience of retail.

December 26, 2009 1:11:39 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Quoting Melchiz,

Whenever I try to restore Orange Box backups I have to verify the GCF files anyway, or the games won't launch. Thus far, nothing beats the offline install/backup experience of retail.

And nothing ever will!

December 26, 2009 4:23:09 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Quoting Nesrie,

Quoting Kodiak888, reply 33 
No. 1 : EULA are not gaming specific, therefore trying to specify a gaming company is completely unnecessary. EULA are attached to software licenses, amongst other things.

No. 2 : EULA are not promises, they are very likely contracts that won't hold water in court. We're not talking hype here or forum promice, we're talking about the legal documents attached to these licenses which are very likely not going to hold up in court.

No. 3: Did you drink too much eggnogg or did you even bother to look at what we are talking about?

If you give Steam 60 USD dollars and steam says screw you, you aren't getting anything for that 60 dollars, and if you tell your credit card company you're having a problem with us, we're going to ban you from your account and all your games. Yeah, there is an legal issue with that.

If a company like Steam  goes down and takes all their games with it, it's not really am if but a when, there will probably be some serious questions about the viability of that business model and some legal questions as well. You might want to snort and roll your eyes and pretend like the only people asking these questions are a handful of people on forums, but you're not being realistic if you do. Consumer rights when it comes to software licenses is not a simple or even a small issue, it's been building for years. Most the legal systems are still several steps behind in dealing with digital content.

 

No. 1 - Thank you for enlightening me with a very obvious and uneeded explanation that EULAs are not gaming specific. This thread, and what I was specifically refering to were Impulse and Steam, or Stardock and Valve, and you loosing your games because of them. Or if I may quote you, "Did you drink too much eggnogg or did you even bother to look at what [I was] talking about?"

 

No 2. In the EULA's it is stated that the companies are not responsible for being nice to you in any way shape or form. Including letting you play your licensed games at a later date. Even if you Cochran'd your side and destroyed the EULA in court, when everyone was finished laughing, they'd probly let you know that you live in a Buyer Beware Market. You know the risks you run when you buy a game. The company is under no obligation that it be updated, patched, or anything more than remotely playable. Gothic 3 is a great example of a game that only works 20% of the time and it just sucks to be you if you're not in the minority. Hellgate London was another bombshell.

 

No 3. Replying in a point for point way comes off as derogatory, even if it's not meant to be. I don't know if you weren't quite paying attention or understanding that my sarcastic remarks have a deeper meaning than their intended light hearted nature, but we're actually arguing for and wanting the same thing from the Industry. I'm just aware that we're walking around with FUBAR stamped on our heads when standing up the software giants. I'm not on Steam's side, I am however aware of the limitations of possible recourse measures. They're few and I hope they change, but as of now you're better off playing a board game for secured replayability.

 

 If you give steam $700 for l4d3 CE, where everyone online sees that your avatar gets to wear the regal purple shoes instead of the filthy commoner red shoes, and they fail to deliver the game then that's unfortunate. Sometimes the system doesn't work. When you contact Steam and they realize their mistake and give you the game then all is well. When you tell them that you already bought the game, they should ask you why you bought two copies, and that you now pointlessly own two liscenses of the game. You're not entitled to anything different, and they have no obligation to do any different. If they're nice, they'll give a refund, but you're hoping on their good fortune. Sorry. You didn't check a little box that says "I agree to purchase this game, unless my friend happens to buy it first, in which case you owe me my money back and a pony. A pretty pretty pony with a long pretty mane." It definately sucks, but replace this whole scenario with one involving cars instead of video games. The law isn't on your side, and wouldn't be in this scenario even after a need reform of user's rights.

 

About the perma-banning - If you issue a stop-payment to any company, expect to get black listed. They never said, if you don't pay us we're going to burn your house down and replace your badass dog with a shaved cat with an allergy problem. If you're so unhappy with them that you're willing to go to a third party to exact revenge, then they don't care about your business anymore. There doesn't need to be a threat, that is common sense. My posts thus far have been explaining that when this unfortunate temper tantrum is over, you're stuck without any of your games and all of your money is lost, except maybe that last $50. There is no legal issue with any of that currently, not even almost. Don't get me wrong, there should be, but there is none because of the EULA. If the EULA system is ever taken into consideration (in court or otherwise) and refined into something better, the effects won't be retroactive. That is why I don't use Steam or Impulse unless there is no other feasible option, and will continue to not do so until things change. Vote with your wallets, don't cry about how unfair it is while standing in line for HL2: Episode 6.

 

I'm not rolling my eyes or snorting at the issue, which I am fully aware is much larger than a few of us ne'er do wells measuring "e-peen" sizes in forum arguments. I am rolling my eyes at the notion that there is any form of redaction at the moment, or that one should expected with today's system. If you agree to a contract, no matter how flimsy, then you've signed your rights away. When the needed changes are made to the system for consumer rights, it'll be great day for us all. Until then, lube up if you wanna buck up, because they're bigger, badder, and have all the cool guns.

 

 - sarcasm aside. We agree on almost everything here, so I'm not sure the need to argue any further about something we essentially agree on. So I'll apologize in advance if my sarcasm and methods of reinforcing my opinions in the way the objections were given to me came off as anything more than a light hearted jest. Expecting something you agreed to not expect is silly imo. There should be, and needs to be a better system in place, but until then it's still an agreement.

 

December 26, 2009 8:54:19 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Kodiak888,

 If you agree to a contract, no matter how flimsy, then you've signed your rights away. When the needed changes are made to the system for consumer rights, it'll be great day for us all. Until then, lube up if you wanna buck up, because they're bigger, badder, and have all the cool guns.
 

No, not at all. A contract can be declared non-binding by the court, and any agreements made are null. An EULA would certainly go this way if it were ever to get there.

December 26, 2009 9:19:45 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting GoodGame,

Quoting vieuxchat, reply 3



You never owned any game. Even when you had a disk.

And with impulse you can archive your game on a cd/DVD/whatever. (I don't know for steam or D2D)

 

That's true, but what you're missing is that with a disk, you can reinstall at will (till the disk wears out).  That's a problem if say you move to an area with poor (overpriced) internet access and say your hard drive crashes.  Then you'll wish you had bought hard copy versions of your games.

I backup every game I buy, then write them to a DVD. How is it different from a retail version (apart the re-sailing thing) ?

 

December 26, 2009 9:52:05 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Quoting vieuxchat,

I backup every game I buy, then write them to a DVD. How is it different from a retail version (apart the re-sailing thing

Because you cannot use that backup if the the game is removed from your account or your account is banned.

December 26, 2009 10:43:35 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

If it is Impulse, then this is possible. The only problem would be Demigod (I think), as that uses an Impulse account for online play. I have no idea about LAN games though.

December 26, 2009 6:20:17 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Impulse games create a signature file that ties authentication to your account and machine specific codes such as your hard drive volume serial number.  If you reformat your drive or buy a new computer, then restore your Impulse games from a physical backup, you have to connect to a Stardock server to re-authenticate.  This creates the new sig files required for the games to actually run.  

Physical backups and restores for Impulse games work fine on the same Windows installation, but then what's the point of keeping physical backups if they're only good for the current Windows install.  You're pretty much dependant on the ability to connect and authorize through Stardock to keep your Impulse games going from one machine or install ot the next.  The same can be said more or less about any other online digital distributor. Even if you buy games on physical media, they often use online authentication requiring an account of some kind.  All of this creates a situtation where the publisher has full control over your access to the software.  As someone said above, doesn't smell right. 

I haven't been screwed by this practice myself so I don't have a big problem with it.  However, it's a fastly growing trend and it's not just games that use this kind of authentication.  I definitely feel it's something that needs to be addressed in digital rights laws.  As stated already, the law makers are always sadly behind in addressing issues brought about by modern digital parctices.

 

December 26, 2009 6:44:42 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Quoting Myles,

No, not at all. A contract can be declared non-binding by the court, and any agreements made are null. An EULA would certainly go this way if it were ever to get there.

Lets forget about that "what ifs" and technical possibilities and lookat the situation rationally. Even if reformed and taken to court, they will not void the millions upon millions EULAs and demand any form of reparitions for the consumers. The arguement that almost every EULA is identical and that you knew what you were agreeing to, especially since most of the boxes say "you must agree to the enclosed liscense agreement" will cut your case in half. What will happen is that how the system works in the future will change.

The only flimsy part of the EULA at the moment is that you have to purchase the product before having the chance to read and agree to it. If they post the EULA online, or you have to agree to it before downloading the program, then you'll have that much less ground to stand on. If you agree to a contract, it's a hard line to come back at a later date and want the contract changed.

If you were banned, Steam or Impulse will most likely be able to cite a rule you broke somewhere along the way which justifies the ban. The Impulse and Steam are both free to use, and if you don't agree to their terms then you are free to uninstall and never use their products without any loss to yourself. Their house, their rules. Which brings me to my actual complaint that I've been harping about all along.

 

Quoting vieuxchat,

I backup every game I buy, then write them to a DVD. How is it different from a retail version (apart the re-sailing thing) ?
 

 

These backups are mostly, if not entirely useless without the Client. And without some of the updates which are unavailable to you outside of piracy even ones that work without the client are near useless. This is what needs to be addressed. We've lost or are losing the ability to play our games and have no form of protection. Even with G4WL, if you get banned you can still install your games but since the keys are tied to a banned account, when you create a new account they won't transfer over, which means that you can save your game, if play it at all. We deserve a better form of protection or the rest of us will stop playing or go to piracy so we can play the games we legally bought, and stay there to keep from being ripped off in the future. If the console market gets as restrictive as the PC market is becoming then the piracy will skyrocket above what it currently is there as well.

December 26, 2009 7:46:25 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Kodiak888,



Lets forget about that "what ifs" and technical possibilities and lookat the situation rationally.

This is why I responded to you the way i do. If someone disagrees with you, that does not make them irrational nor does it mean that they will be "laughed out of the court." You appear to have very limited or no knowledge about how contract law works. You don't sign on the dotted line and therefore sign away all your protected rights just because they say so. The way the EULA's are written now, most of them, not some, are very unlikely to be held up in court when a case actually reaches that point. It's not even iffy. Consumers have rights, and most those rights people are unaware of so they have you sign a piece of paper that discourages most people from even attempting to have those rights upheld.

You think if a landlord hands you a 30 page piece of paper that says you are not entitled to water on his residential rentals and if you sign that paper suddenly that overrides existing laws? It doesn't. EULA are not promises on forums thrown up by some low grade moderator. Contract law is serious business, and of course it's a what if scenario. The only way your arugment holds water if we create a bubblle around one minute in time and pretend there was no past and that there will be no future. Those kind of arguments are pretty much useless.

December 26, 2009 7:56:12 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

@CraigHB- Sins of a Solar Empire is an Impulse game, and I have NEVER needed to use Impulse to play the game. EVER.

In fact, the first time I got it, I only updated to v1.05, and never touched Impulse until I trawled the forums a bit.

December 26, 2009 8:13:04 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

And this will only get worse as digital distribution gets more common. This is the real DRM companies have wanted for years; the ability to cut you off anytime they please. It will not surprise me in the slightest once purchased games inevitably come with time limits attached. You might argue, "But I'll never buy a game that expires after a year!" Shut up. Yes you will. After they attach it to enough AAA titles, people will start giving in to such a scheme. And they will rationalize it ("Well, I'm finished with it after a couple months anyway..."), and it will become accepted.

That's why I crack all my bought games and I usually buy them via digital distribution services. Ciao online checks. Good bye DRM. And the game boots up faster.

DRM never has and never will work. Steam or no Steam, just make yourself a copy on the DVD and include a crack for it. That way you know that the product you bought will always be available for you.

In fact, good digital distribution schemes should always include the option to store the files on a user's DVD. Its easier on your bandwidth (well I got flatrate so I don't care, but I can imagine how the guys who don't have flatrate feel when they've got to uninstall a digitally bought game weighing ten gigs or more...)

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