Would anyone be interested in playing an extensive balance mod for demigods?

Are you happy with only half the demigod being compeditively playerble?

By nzac on November 28, 2009 10:09:46 PM from

The initial idea would be to balance every demigod to about the same level of usefulness as Sedna or Rook or just below it. (Futher changes could be made after this.)

I my opinion Sedna and Rook are about right overall they are very good at certain areas of the game but can still be beaten by a number of combinations of 2 demigods in these areas. They are also weak in other areas and need other demigods to full those roles. Other levels of power could be used as a reference for ballancing to but I think this would be best ones.

For example, I think UB could be changed from having the fastest speed, best dps and the best ganking ability, and able to tank late game (making him rather overpowered, and far more dangerous than DA ganking wise) to just having the best dps and best 1vs1 demigod if supported by priests (can kited and be relatively easy to run from). This would allow DA to full the role of being the best ganker without being pretty close to redundant compared to UB and allow the ranged demigods to kite him effectively.

I think this could be done with simple changes like:

Lowering base speed to 6 (from 6.3), will still be fast with abilities but not too fast to kite safely.
Lowering acclimatisation damage reduction to 20 percent (from 40), 65 percent damage reduction with Bulwark is just too good.
Removing the last 3 second of damage from spit (last only for the cool down of spit now), would not effect kiting with spit or sustained usage but would decrease the ganking ability of UB

Not sure that these nurfs are good enough or too good to achieve the required nurf in UB effectiveness to bring him down to the same level as Sedna and Rook, but the idea is that the changes simple, effective (in this case a meaningful nurf) and easy to remember the changes to the demigod you are using.

How many out there would want to play a balance mod like this? (Is it worth my or someone else’s time to make)

Would you want to all your games to be played with this ballance mod? (You would be able to play Queen or Reg and feel that you are as powerful as UB or LE, if the balance changes are good enough).

Is anyone interested enough to do some coding for the mod? My LUA skills would be limited to simple number changes at best.

+2 Karma | 36 Replies

I'm sorry to say right now alot of us are busy with our own stuff. Nearly all the number you want are in these two files. Simply edit them and make your own mod.

\units\heroes\HEPA01\HEPA01_Abilities.lua
\units\heroes\HEPA01\HEPA01_unit.bp

The first control abilities the second controls his base stats.

I would suggest just making it yourself and testing it.

Quoting mrappard,

reply 1

I'm sorry to say right now alot of us are busy with our own stuff. Nearly all the number you want are in these two files. Simply edit them and make your own mod.

\units\heroes\HEPA01\HEPA01_Abilities.lua
\units\heroes\HEPA01\HEPA01_unit.bp

The first control abilities the second controls his base stats.

I would suggest just making it yourself and testing it.

Thanks, ill have a look. I am quite happy to get it working my self, i was just hoping to find 5 (or just 3) other players who might be willing to test (at least once) it before i made the mod.

There is no point in even starting to make the mod for just playing against AI or if there is a better way to go about ballancing the game.

Edit: i really dont want to spend a number of hours on it, if people dont think that it could make the game better.

I am sorry to say this, but Not all players will ever agree to any balance mod for demigods. Many will not like it, not matter what you change and many will love it.

So your idea is really good, but right now, there are a million of different opinions about balancing all 10 demis, that it would not be used by all players.

Quoting morpheas768,

reply 3

I am sorry to say this, but Not all players will ever agree to any balance mod for demigods. Many will not like it, not matter what you change and many will love it.

So your idea is really good, but right now, there are a million of different opinions about balancing all 10 demis, that it would not be used by all players.

I knew that from the start, thats why i am asking if there are 10 (hopefully there are many more) players out there who think that with simple changes the game can be made be better by simple changes, and be willing to try games with those changes.

I am in no way going to be wrighting code new abilities or anything else complicatied (unless by some mirical large numbers of people start using the mod). I am just wanting to change 2 - 4 aspects of each demigods (all most all will be number increases/decreases) so they will compete more evenly vs each other.

Because of this my idea is that it should be intuitive on how the ballance changes will effect the power of a demigod so if people what to see if better ballance is more more enjoyerble they dont have to learn any new builds. For example, if the damage of uproot was doubled queen would be able to destroy towers quicker (this is overpowered, i would think), its better, its obvious how it would be more useful and how it could change the gameplay.

This hopefull means that everyone will be able to understand and remeber how the demigod they are playing is different from normal ballance just from quickly reading over the log.

There are lot of people out there who would like to play some of weaker demigods, the ideal outcome would be if the community reaslies that changes in the ballance could make the game more fun and the compeditive metagame much more dynamic (i would think we are 6 weeks off finding the 3 optmial teams and possibly builds for 3vs3s, you wont be able to play anything else unless you are playing for fun as well). Then either gpg would be forced to ballance the game by commnity demand or someone with more time and modding skill could be motivated to make a better mod.

I think what Morph was saying is that really getting people to help you will almost be more of hindrance than help. You may be able to find several people to help you, but one might say double the damage of uproot, the other says half the damage.

You need to decide for yourself what is needed in the balancing. When testing, try NOT telling people what changes were made, and then ask them how they feel about the balance of all 10 demis. This is a single-blind test, and should prove somewhat helpful, as you can get a general idea of how they feel.

A key to modding though: Make the mod for yourself. If others like it and want it, then you can feel free to put more polish on it...but if you only plan to make the mod if others are interested in it, you'll only waste your time.

Anyways, I will try to keep an eye on this topic, and can help you with any questions, though I am working on several of my own ideas, so can't help with the balancing. If you get a mod finished, and would like to ask my opinion on it, I can give it a few quick tests some time.

Also, a 3rd file is: lua/common/BuffDefBaseStats.lua ( this has the level up buffs. Keep this in mind, because some stats change over time. IE: Sedna goes from tied for 4th in health at level 1, to 7th at level 20. )

zechio is right. I want to add, that regarding the demigods balancing, there can never be perfect balance in the game. No matter what. there will always be someone that will say: "Erebus is OP, DA is UP, TB is useless...etc" stuff like that.

I believe that with the items and the favor items, they can be widely accepted as balanced, but about the demis, people will always disagree about it.

Anyway, i would like to help you, but i have my hands full atm, with other projects/mods. I can give you tips, and answer questions, or suggest balance changes, but i dont have a lot of time to test them, sorry.

Your idea is not bad, I am not discouraging you, i am simply saying: Dont expect too much from people.

Does anyone know where the file to change base speed is located?

I dont think a blind test would not work too well for ballance in demigod, dieing because something unexpected was changed would though off any good resaults instantly.

But yes ill see if i can document and the the changes and then get a hocks working and publish it here with my own ideas and resons for them and see if anyone want to see if they are any good or (at least fun to have diffent demigods in Teir 1 if i overbuff one or two).

Its not that hard, execept for the mutiple hooks (have not tryed it yet) finding the right numbers is pretty easy.

Does anyone know where the file to change base speed is located?

1. Go to: dgdata\units\heroes then the folder with the hero you want for example: HVampire

2. Once you are inside the hero folder open: HVampire_unit.BP

3. Scroll way down and you will find it.

Just saw you post morph, i am only planing on spending 3 to 4 hours on changes max, i know that a limited number of people will chose even visit a blance mod post (and my somewhat extrem views in the commnity could be better for getting people to look at my ballance ideas).

I know 10 differnt demigods is too hard to fully ballance but i beleve i could make the power level of each closer than it is at the moment, at the moment reg can be forced back by 7 spirts when oak is over the otherside of the map i think i could change enough so at lest oak has to show up the fight.

I think that i could get it (if i get enough support for a few attemps at ballance) so that the metagame was built around 3 to 4 demgods that were not too much more powerful than the rest and your third (the first 2 will still probaly have to come from a group of 4 to 6) demigod could be picked from any of the 10 demigods. And for larger games all demigods where viable. Im not going to try to get 2vs2 or 1vs1 ballanced. Well any buffs to queen and it appers she will win 1vs1s anyway.

Finished the mod.

I go to start a single player game with it on and get stuck in the loading screen, does not crash just never finishes loading.

Appears to work fine with the bp files removed do i have to change something in them?

Quoting nzac,

reply 10

Finished the mod.

I go to start a single player game with it on and get stuck in the loading screen, does not crash just never finishes loading.

Appears to work fine with the bp files removed do i have to change something in them?

Can you upload the files somewhere. Be easier to check to see what was modified/what is going wrong

P.S.: I won't beable to help til later today...It's 6:30AM, I'm going to be sleeping awhile:) Hopefully someone else will beable to help ya sooner.

Quoting nzac,

reply 10

Give us some more info about the problem and we can help you.

Maybe post the files, like zechio suggested.

Removed placeholder (unchanged changes unit.bp files) and redid the other unit.bp without comments. Still did not work

See changelog enclosed or play first zechio. Changed Erebus, Oak, UB, Reg, TB and Queen. Others will be looked at if this mod helps the blance.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/gjk4jd

Edit: sorry about the advitising will try to find a better place to upload it to.

It seems that the game has issues with hooking a unit bp. The mods.lua mentions this:

   First, you can define one or more .bp files with "Merge=true", that override
   particular fields for many units. This is how the campaign balance mod works.

   Second, you can define a function <TODO>, which is called on each blueprint
   as it is loaded. This function can then manipulate the blueprint in arbitrary
   ways.

   First, a mod can simply add a new blueprint file that defines a new blueprint.

   Second, a mod can contain a blueprint with the same ID as an existing blueprint.
   In this case it will completely override the original blueprint. Note that in
   order to replace an original non-unit blueprint, the mod must set the "BlueprintId"
   field to name the blueprint to be replaced. Otherwise the BlueprintId is defaulted
   off the source file name. (Units don't have this problem because the BlueprintId is
   shortened and doesn't include the original path).

   Finally, a mod can define a ModBlueprints() function which manipulates the
   original_blueprints table in arbitrary ways. [How/when exactly is this done?]

I think the issue comes from "the BlueprintId is shortened and doesn't include the original path"

Unfortunately I don't know how to use the other methods mentioned yet.

Ignore the ballance just realised that QoT can pump out about 500 dps or more by level 10 with large aoe.

Edit: Has anyone attempted (is there a known way) to swap a level 15 skill with a level 10 one. 600-700 unmitigated dps is reasonable (possible 150 damage to much) to have on a level 15 demigod that can be ran away from (would be difficult to buff much further than 750 as well). Getting tribute at level 10 would make it much more worthwhile and useful.

Fixed the problem the mod now works as in the abouve change log see the recent post for the solution about the unit.bp files.

Going to try to fix up the ballance unless wants to play it now. Might get a 0.2 out tonight.

Does anyone have any ideas to buff fire tb a little (considering ice tb is fine), you cant change any base stats and bumping up the damage or fire abilitys is not the best solution.

Quoting morpheas768,

reply 3

freedom to express ones own opinion bad. Dictatorship good.

A nerf mod is not one I'd be likely to try.

freedom to express ones own opinion bad. Dictator ship good.

Do you want me to leave my uber squad of 8 shamblers in with greater attack stats than they ever had in then (i think 600 dps was possible by level 10 or so with a couple of other buffs).

well im doing mod stuff to balance certain things out against each other. just trialling a few things atm as u know nzac

Quoting obscenitor,

reply 18

A nerf mod is not one I'd be likely to try.

Can you explain why this is? Is there a flaw in the idea, or do you not to see the meta changed?

Though it is true a nurf mod is a negative way of looking at it, its also a buff mod to everything else.

I would think to buff everything to erebus power level would resault in every demigod being able to full pretty much all the important roles to the same level just doing think a little bit differntly or completely dominate large aspects of the game.

Change Log

Nzac's ballance v0.1
Never worked!!!!

Torch Bearer
Would like to specialise in buffs/debuffs and aoe abilities
I think that Ice TB is on a similar level to Sedna and rook and is ok with ganking ablates having been weakened, don?t know how fire TB could be buffed just by changing numbers
Changes:
Base speed increased to 6.3 was 6.0

Unclean Beast

Base speed decreased to 6.0 was 6.3
Acclimation damage reduction reduced to 20% was 40%
Spit damage debuff reduced to 7 secs duration was 10
Max Health increase per level reduced to 105 was 135
Max Energy increase per level reduced to 75 was 104

Reg
Tried to make him so he can play like everyone seem to think he is able to. Starts off as able to kite / snare better and then to scale into the late game as high DPS AA demigod. Angel mode now gives larger aoe to help deal with minions.
Maim speed debuff increased to 5/10/15 from 5/7/10
Maim duration increased to 3/5/7 was 3/3/3 (should enable much better kiting and escapes guaranteed snare)
MotB range increased to 25 from 20 to allow it to trigger on enemies first ability.
Angelic Fury cost per shot changed to 15/25/35/50 from 40/40/40/40
Angelic Fury radius changed to 1.5/2/2.5/3 from 2/2/2/2 (not sure if I changed the right constants here.)
Angelic Fury damage increased by 25 ie 50/75/100/125
Increase in damage per level from 8.4 to 13.9 (110 extra damage by level 20, testing showed this may be too much)
Increased base damage to 150.
Would like to add restrictions mine usage but not sure of where to change stuff.

Oak
Tried to focus oak more on the SoF/DJ side not sure if defuffs are sufficient compared to UB/LE nurfes.
Sheild level 3/4 debuff immunity during full duration removed, should still remove debuffs at start. Should get full effect from the level 15 ability if cast on oak. (now matches the description listed on ability except for levels 1 and 2)
Penitence debuffs decreased to 5/7/10/13 from 7/10/13/16

Queen
Focusing on siege going though to a morel style minions play late game. Minion power grows ?exponentially?. Minions may have been buffed too far but I think the effect on overall power is limited by no stuns and difficulty in keeping your self alive.
Summon Shambler cost reduced by 20 percent for each level
Increased summon cap to 3/4/6/8 from 2/2/4/4
Doubled Entourage damage buff to Shamblers to 12/24/36
Entourage health increase is now 250/500/750
Uproot cost changed to 380/530/680/1550 (last level will pwn towers if you want to spend the mana and ability point.
Uproot damage per second increased to 75/150/225/450
Bramble shield mana cost increased to 400/560/720/1100 from 400/560/720/840
Bramble shield absorption increased to 700/950/1400/2000 from 700/950/1200/1450

Lord Erebus

Yet to decide what LE should be good at, sedna, rook and some others should now fare much better in 1vs1 against him now though

Changes:
Batswarm Range changed to 15/20/25 was 20/30/30
Bite cooldown increased to 12 was 7
Bite speed mutiplyer is capped at -20% was 15/20/25/30 now 15/20/20/20
Base VampireChance (chance on minion death that minion is converted to vampire) changed to 25 was 35
Conversion VampireChance is now 30/35/40 was 30/65/80
Conversion health bonus for nightwalkers is now 100/200/300 was 125/250/400
Coven attack bonus for night walkers is not 5/10/15 was 6/12/18
Reduced mass charm minion stun to 2/3/4/5 was 3/5/7/9
Changed mist so it can?t be deactivated for 7 secs
Un commented a 25 per second life loss for the first 2 levels of Mist to restrict usage for escape cooldown (no life loss for higher levels, this may or may not be a good idea to change mist like this)
Reduced base speed to 6.0

.bp currently not working so no base speed changes can be applied, delete .bp files in each folder under folder in units/heroes

0.2
first working mod
further debuffs to oak and erebus and making the buffs to reg damage less excessive. Removed some buffs to shamblers should now have similar power to the old erebus minions (probably still to much).
Reg
Maim slows reduced to -5/-8/-12%
Main durration decreased to 3/4/5 secs
Increase in damage per level to 11.9 from 13.9 (70 extra damage by level 20, 110 was too much along with angel and high rate of fire )
Angelic Fury mana cost increased to 25/35/45/55
Angelic Fury damage changed to 35/70/105/140

Queen
Created shambler damag buff decreased to 3/6/9
Entourage damage buff to Shamblers reduced to 10/16/22 (may still be too good but somewhat resonble now) The damage buff total 240 extra damage with 8 shamblers.

Oak
MaxHealth increase per level decreased to 120 from 140.

Erebus
MaxHealth increase per level decreased to 120 from 145.

Please comment on the ballance changes i will have overdone/underdone some changes.

Ballance Mod 0.2

Not at all a proper realease still will most likely have a couple of bugs.

Ow.. well...

It looks like a completely self decided unbalancing mod for yourself. I wont use it as it changes the complete DG build for almost every DG and ruins all gameplay tactics for especially Erebus, as i play him most.
I dont think you tried to really balance him out, or if you tried, this is completely fail. You need some guys to help you with that. Ask some member of the community, better some good ppl to help you if you really want to do it.

You will never be able to do it alone. You need some well known names as helpers which give you the voice for this mod.

You NEED some help or this is a stillborn child.

As another quick tip: First reaction from obscenitor was to not use any nerf mod. I feel the same. Better try to increase some stats from the weakend dgs like TB or Queen then nerfing so called OP once.

Quoting Lordi17,

reply 24

Ow.. well...
It looks like a completely self decided unbalancing mod for yourself. I wont use it as it changes the complete DG build for almost every DG and ruins all gameplay tactics for especially Erebus, as i play him most.
I dont think you tried to really balance him out, or if you tried, this is completely fail. You need some guys to help you with that. Ask some member of the community, better some good ppl to help you if you really want to do it.

You will never be able to do it alone. You need some well known names as helpers which give you the voice for this mod.

You NEED some help or this is a stillborn child.

first of all is a 0.2 mod and "Not at all a proper realease" so its not ment to be used as a ballance mod the best someone could get out of it is some fun playing with the weaker demigods while they are are some of the stronger ones. I made this much to see if i could do it and to show that the ballance can be changed (erebus does not need to be the best), and hopefully that there is a group in the commnity that want a better ballance. Just to make shure my point gets accross on the recomendation of the first two reply i did the my first appocimation of ballance i know its not even close to right (but there is a much smaller gap between the best and worst demigod now.

Currenly erebus is just plain better than every other demigod except UB and Oak (which he is marginally better than or playes on an equal level if you like) all other demigod can be beeten by any good erebus build. Any good ballance mod would resault in erebus finding himself weaker against at least 2 to 3 demigods and competing relitively evenly with about 4. In no way is will your favourite couple of builds still be the best thay you could have. I think the reg and queen builds from v 0.1 would be a about the same level as the current erebus when the meta settled and i dont think the current erebus builds would be so effective vs them. This is not the ballance mod where i intend to let erebus start as the superor demigod and then end with erebus, oak and UB still on top by a smaller ammout, its an extencive ballance mod.

If you are wanting to sugest ballances with the ballance it would be good i think you are the first person bring up helping with ballance. If it turns out that ideal ballance is too hard to achive in the game then maybe we do need something like erebus at the top and then to build the meta around.

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Would anyone be interested in playing an extensive balance mod for demigods?

Are you happy with only half the demigod being compeditively playerble?