How to fix the Multiplayer in Demigod

By Ironrock on November 22, 2009 11:17:04 PM from

HOST DEDICATED SERVERS

Have lower to higher RANKED SERVERS. Have servers evaluate player rankings and have dedicated servers reject over-ranked players trying to join lower ranked servers and vice versa. Players would have to "fight" thier way up to the higher level servers. This would "BALANCE" games. Players would always be playing people within thier skill sets.

The dedicated servers will keep cycling maps with varying amounts of slots available..always maxing the slots. (This meaning if it is a 5v5 map...10 slots open and and will start once filled. No player is in control of slots. Nor can they see what demigods other players choose. They would only see names and rankings.

If players get over a certain threshold of disconnects, they would only be able to join the lowest ranked servers until thier threshold is back within tolerance.

There are a multitude of ways to make this happen with cost in mind.

1. Have dedicated servers in different geographic areas.

2. Have each server with slots and a que.

3. As a game progresses and some one "rage quits" or disconnects..the slot is open and a player in the que with the same demigod is brought in at the same level and items.

4. Disconnected player gets a loss.

5. New connected player gets neither win or loss but gets exp and favor.

6. Players that leave cause no desync issues with others as there is no peer to peer involved.

7. Custom could be hosted peer to peer.

Add dedicated "Clan servers" in which players that form a Clan can rent. Minimum Clan size and upfront fee for X number of months (I would say 6 mos to a year). Dedicated admin for each "Server" (Server would be based on total slots hosted with LIVE players concurrently). Clan ranks would be captured from these servers based on minimum settings defined by Clan community or SD.

Final note: I know the peer to peer methodology is for cost savings. I would say that there would be community interest in hosting dedicated ranked servers. This could be implemented as a beta program and I believe that you will find it more successful than you might think.

0 Karma | 58 Replies

Mabey this reply its a little hash but your research into this 'bad and wrong', we have trouble getting bug fixes when we know what code needs to be changed no company would put this much effort in to netcode that resaults in preformace drops (internet speed/reliablity is now as much a system requirement as it its to have a sutible gpu).

Yes the crashes and bugs are holding the game back, the supcom engine kind of does lack the abitlity to deal with players who cheat/exploit but this cannot really be helped and it does produce a better game to the current "2-D" engines.

NO.

Quoting nzac,

reply 1

Do you have any idea how much money this would cost a lot of people to make this work, with the current staff working on demigod this would take 5 years (this might even be optimistic) and people having to re-download the game (well maybe just the engine) and the connectivity would be worse than we currently have and desyncs are not due to the peer-to-peer connections either.

Mabey this reply its a little hash but your research into this 'bad and wrong', we have trouble getting bug fixes when we know what code needs to be changed no company would put this much effort in to netcode that resaults in preformace drops (internet speed/reliablity is now as much a system requirement as it its to have a sutible gpu).

Yes the crashes and bugs are holding the game back, the supcom engine kind of does lack the abitlity to deal with players who cheat/exploit but this cannot really be helped and it does produce a better game to the current "2-D" engines.

The cost you speak of is no more significant that the current netcode that has SD communicating with GPGnet. Furthermore, my research is well founded from over 25 years of gaming and owning a network business. Peer to peer gaming is the exception...not the rule. Also, the desync issues are due to peer to peer when Player A has something different than player B. IN a client server scenario, this would not be the case. Feel free to send me a private message and I can show you how netcode works.

Yes, to dedicated servers.

No, to some ideas, i.e. not seeing what demigods your teammates choose

How about we start off with getting a working ranking system first.

Quoting lifekatana,

reply 2

HELL NO.

QFT

These kind of massive, sweeping changes are incredibly unrealistic. If you honestly think anyone is going to seriously consider these, I suggest re-calibrating your expectations for the real world and coming back to a little place I call Earth.

HOST DEDICATED SERVERS
Due to the netcode currently in use within Demigod, the cost of altering the entire structure of the game to support and operate under these conditions would, quite literally, stretch into the tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. This doesn't even begin to take into consideration the cost of building, installing and running and maintaining the servers themselves, which would destroy any profits currently made by Demigod for both Stardock and Gas Powered Games.

1. Have dedicated servers in different geographic areas.
The cost and legal rammifications of this are so massive as to make this idea laughable. Stardock, apart from it's own proxy servers, do not currently have their own internationally networked series of servers for games to make use of this suggestion and creating one is something that has taken the market leader, Blizzard Entertainment, the last 10 years.

3. As a game progresses and some one "rage quits" or disconnects..the slot is open and a player in the que with the same demigod is brought in at the same level and items.
The game does not currently support this as such, and would need to be coded in thus further increasing the cost..

6. Players that leave cause no desync issues with others as there is no peer to peer involved.
7. Custom could be hosted peer to peer.
You clearly have little to no understanding of how these systems work.

Add dedicated "Clan servers" in which players that form a Clan can rent. Minimum Clan size and upfront fee for X number of months (I would say 6 mos to a year). Dedicated admin for each "Server" (Server would be based on total slots hosted with LIVE players concurrently). Clan ranks would be captured from these servers based on minimum settings defined by Clan community or SD.
Hi there Ironrock, this is Reality - please come back and visit sometime. Thank you.

Final note: I know the peer to peer methodology is for cost savings.
That, and it completely elimates cheating of any kind and isn't reliant on third party support for servers, unlike other games like Counter-Strike. Unreal Tournament 3, for example, was a very high profile game. However, it is effectively a useless product now as there are currently so few servers available to play on that getting a game in next to impossible. Demigod will never have this problem.

No, demigod will never have that problem, just a deminishing user base and fewer players playing the game. ALSO, when I say cost saving, my friend, I mean upfront cost savings and the long term has been sacrificed because lack of engagement due to unbalanced games, too many quitters, and lack of any controls on in game experience. As a business man, with a successful business, you look at your ROI and ROR (return on investment-getting your money back for your time and cost, and rate of return- how fast you get the money back. More community egagement = players buying (adds to volume, accelerating cash flow faster) THAT is reality.

Quoting Invisible_XXI,

reply 4

Yes, to dedicated servers.

No, to some ideas, i.e. not seeing what demigods your teammates choose

I get that statement, the fundamentals of dedicated servers can allow these things to be changed. The idea is to get MORE community engagement and add more interest to get people buying. This work of art will die if the status quo is followed. And as this post is dated: Time will prove me right or wrong. But, nonetheless, the peer to peer is causing more things to be addressed in a "Software Vietnam" style than if dedicated servers were used. Upfront cost savings do not always translate to long term success.

Considering stardock is going to host elemental multiplayer on its OWN DEDICATED SERVERS why couldn't demigod beta them, and benefit from such a thing?

edit. in general that is. the tournament and tier ideas are all secondary to the fact that demigod could someday be played 5v5 regularly if dedicated servers were up.

Quoting kitch45,

reply 10

Considering stardock is going to host elemental multiplayer on its OWN DEDICATED SERVERS why couldn't demigod beta them, and benefit from such a thing?

EXCELLENT POINT. Elemental will probably keep its user base longer and be more successful in the long term adding a "captive audience" and increasing revenue long term for the engagement.

Quoting kitch45,

reply 10

Considering stardock is going to host elemental multiplayer on its OWN DEDICATED SERVERS why couldn't demigod beta them, and benefit from such a thing?

EXCELLENT POINT. Elemental will probably keep its user base longer and be more successful in the long term adding a "captive audience" and increasing revenue long term for the engagement.

Also, the desync issues are due to peer to peer when Player A has something different than player B. IN a client server scenario, this would not be the case. Feel free to send me a private message and I can show you how netcode works.

desync != dc dc = disconnect due to bad internet connection or upload speed

thus the people would still dc from the server as often as they dc from other people

[quote]These kind of massive, sweeping changes are incredibly unrealistic. If you honestly think anyone is going to seriously consider these, I suggest re-calibrating your expectations for the real world and coming back to a little place I call Earth.

HOST DEDICATED SERVERS

Due to the netcode currently in use within Demigod, the cost of altering the entire structure of the game to support and operate under these conditions would, quite literally, stretch into the tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. This doesn't even begin to take into consideration the cost of building, installing and running and maintaining the servers themselves, which would destroy any profits currently made by Demigod for both Stardock and Gas Powered Games.

1. Have dedicated servers in different geographic areas.

The cost and legal rammifications of this are so massive as to make this idea laughable. Stardock, apart from it's own proxy servers, do not currently have their own internationally networked series of servers for games to make use of this suggestion and creating one is something that has taken the market leader, Blizzard Entertainment, the last 10 years.

7. Custom could be hosted peer to peer.

You clearly have little to no understanding of how these systems work.

Wanted to reply to these couple of points.

1. Legal ramifications? Enough said on that. And Blizzard did not start Massively, they have evolved to the point they are now through continuing engaement and coding. You clearly do not understand how a business is built.

2. I understand quite clearly how it currently works, which is insufficient. Community engagement allowing players to get envolved with content and a server they can host will spring board interest, fresh ideas and allow new revenue streams from people purchasing the base game to enjoy modding, thier own servers etc. OR..we can sit back play the status quo and I will see you in elemental, SC2 or some other game that has engaement and longevity.

Quoting Ironrock,

reply 8

As a business man, with a successful business, you look at your ROI and ROR (return on investment-more players staying and more buying, and rate of return- more players buying adds to volume, accelerating cash flow) THAT is reality.

The captial requirement for such a sweeping change and advancement of the current Stardock infrastructure would dwarf any additional profits that purchases of a lower profile game like Demigod would bring. 'Fixed' multiplayer, as you put it, wouldn't transform Demigod into the next World of Warcraft-level cash cow.

Quoting Ironrock,

reply 14

Firstly, Stardock is the North American Publisher of Demigod, and as thus outside of the North America you're dealing with Atari, I believe. The legal rammifications of such sweeping changes being entirely funded by Stardock are huge. Even a multi-investor change of this magnitude, assuming of course GPG and Atari sign off on the deal which they won't, would essentially place three companies in the midst of a financially irresponsible situation. Atari, being a publically owned company, is under requirement to minimise financial risk and maximise profits; their shareholders wouldn't be too happy with them for spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on a game that has already reached profitable levels of sales and received favourable reception upon it's release. Demigod isn't a gold mine waiting to be tapped, regardless of your feelings on the matter.

Quoting Ironrock,

reply 14

2. I understand quite clearly how it currently works, which is insufficient.

If this is your understanding then decribing it as clear is an incorrect use of the word.

Quoting ZehDon,

reply 15

Quoting Ironrock,
reply 8
As a business man, with a successful business, you look at your ROI and ROR (return on investment-more players staying and more buying, and rate of return- more players buying adds to volume, accelerating cash flow) THAT is reality.

The captial requirement for such a sweeping change and advancement of the current Stardock infrastructure would dwarf any additional profits that purchases of a lower profile game like Demigod would bring. 'Fixed' multiplayer, as you put it, wouldn't transform Demigod into the next World of Warcraft-level cash cow.

And exactly why do you think sweat equitty of a programmer equals SWEEPING changes so massive? A dedicated server product that someone can download..host thier own game? Please. I cannot imagine how things get done in your world when you think everything takes MILLIONS of dollars.

You guys have to read the point. I said Community Involvement on hosting servers. A whole industry has been created by companies that HOST servers. If YOU personally are not interested, that is perfectly fine, however, when you SUBSIDISE A THING...that thing GROWS.

This would make sense for an expansion or sequel, but it's just not realistic to expect them to rebuild the game at this point in its life cycle. GPG had a really good window to do things right and they just missed it. WoW was completely stagnant (and still is really) and there were no new solid multiplayer PC games out. Now L4D2 is out and other games are closer to release date, not to mention things like Dragon Age and Torchlight as well as some other solid single player titles came out.

In that period before the LoL/HoN betas got into full swing I think DG could have stolen the crown of the MOBA scene, but not the game has just lost too much steam. Again, we just need an expansion or sequel with the multiplayer done in a more competitive fashion so that game sites out there will re-review it and get more buzz going again.

Also if they were going to rebuild a major part of the game, I'd really like for them to rework the map system while they're at it. The maps need to be 2d models with 3d doodads, not fully 3d images that it's hard to rebuild pathing and nigh impossible for and end user to create.

This would not be a rewrite, its simple an addition so that the community can take some of the game control and content into its own hands and still add revenue to the base game.

As I've explained above, the changes you've mentioned - namely the connectivity system changes - are not 'simple additions' in any stretch of the imagination. I used the term 'sweeping changes' for a reason.

I see that you are an apologist, but that does not equal making a dedicated server component SWEEPING. As you believe you have command of the financials for such a venture, please break down in a cost analysis of such a thing to prove your statements? I have seen MANY MANY games that have been modded with dedicated server programs that have materialized into future games etc. One example is the BF 1942 Desert Combat mod...and so on. These were created by talented progammers that put thier own time into it. EVEN LINUX is a full blown ENTERPRISE product made by the community. EVERY PRODUCT THAT HAS NO COMMUNITY INVOLVEMENT WILL ULTIMATELY FAIL OR HAVE VERY LITTLE MARKET SHARE.

I can prove this very simply as applies to this game. Make a downloadable Dedicated server software...then release a mod tool...and watch where the players go.

This would not be a rewrite, its simple an addition

Sorry, but it really isn't. There is a significant difference between a system which already uses a client-server architecture (but uses one of the players as the server) and a peer-to-peer architecture. There is no simple plug and play fix.

The client looks for a matchmaker service. The client can have an addition to point to any address that would be a Dedicated Server which would have the match maker service---which is already written.

All that would really do for you is let you have your own game list/pantheon, at best. The game would still be peer-to-peer.

No, inasmuch as the client initiation is concerned. No one says it wont take programming. But the idea this is some multimillion dollar project that just is too enormous is pure bs.

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How to fix the Multiplayer in Demigod