Rated M and AO Games, Will we be seeing more as digital distribution becomes more popular?

Quoting vindKtiv,

In my opinion, I'm disgusted by the nearly-porno games and games with sex appeal in mind not because of the content, but because of what the developers and publishers had in mind when they made the game. When they made the game, they were thinking "Oh, these video gamers probably don't have a girlfriend, don't talk to girls, and are alone Saturday nights." I, for one, do not have a void to fill in terms of sexual satisfication and the developers making extremely sexualized games aimed at gamers like me is just insulting.

They told you they think that or is that just your assumption?

Quoting vindKtiv,

reply 24

I honestly don't think we will see more AO and M games due to DDL. The same watchdog groups that prowl around Wal-Mart and other chains keeping AO games off the shelves will no doubt come to Steam soon, if not already. Steam already has an age verification system in place.

We already have. Direct2Drive has offered uncut versions of several games that only made it onto shelves in cut form.

They're the only ones though. They don't make it an absolute habit, but they've done it enough. I was disappointed they didn't offer The Witcher uncut, but that was probably Ataris decision.

what gets me is that retail stores can sell tabacco, and alcohol. Yet they cant sell AO games.

Quoting Kaltes,

reply 28

what gets me is that retail stores can sell tabacco, and alcohol. Yet they cant sell AO games.

When there are tax dollars involved, many governments seem willing to sell products that actually kill, but hey if it assaults someone's "morale" values, gotta stop that.

Quoting Nesrie,

reply 29

When there are tax dollars involved, many governments seem willing to sell products that actually kill, but hey if it assaults someone's "morale" values, gotta stop that.

They tried banning alcohol. It didn't work so well.

This conservatism has come from a lot of sources, including politicians willing to exploit the controversies for their own gains. The main source, however, are conservative parents and media watchdog groups, like the "abstainance only" types. They are the ones that make a big deal about sex in games, and the media in general.

I'm not saying that the USA is not conservative or that there are no conservative values in America. You totally passed over my point. The OP said that the USA seems to be more conservative than MOST other countries in the VIDEO GAMES MARKET. I was saying that's just absolutely not true. Please tell me of a (non-porn) game that sold in other countries but never sold here in the USA.

When there are tax dollars involved, many governments seem willing to sell products that actually kill, but hey if it assaults someone's "morale" values, gotta stop that.

what gets me is that retail stores can sell tabacco, and alcohol. Yet they cant sell AO games.

Then, because of GE's post above this topic got waaaay off the mark and started to become more about conservative watch dogs and other stuff like the 2 quotes here.

I tried to find a list of AO-rated video games and the best I could find was the following from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AO-rated_products

There are only a few on that list that are non-porn games. So, why the general upheaval in this thread about we gamers getting access to alcohol but not AO rated games. That's just a crap argument that comes out of your individual PERCEPTION and not cold hard facts. Again, I defy you to name ONE SINGLE GAME that we have been denied access to here in the USA (based on game rating) but that others around the world have had access to. Walmart may not want to carry a game, but there are lots of other stores that will. And if you can't find it in a store you could download it.

So, enough with the 'conservatives are out to take away all our freedoms' junk here. It's baseless mud-slinging that might belong in another thread but certainly not this one.

Quoting Charvel1,

reply 31

So, enough with the 'conservatives are out to take away all our freedoms' junk here. It's baseless mud-slinging that might belong in another thread but certainly not this one.

Not sure what you are getting all worked up about. Personally, I don't think i even used the word "conservative" in any of my posts. And the fact that some people think their beliefs are so important and superior it has to be law are generally people who can't handle being around people who think differently than they do which has nothing to do with one's political view.

I am not sure if you skipped over everyone's post or just read the one that made your blood boil but no one here is saying that these games are banned, but they certainly have a difficult time getting shelf space or a company willing to actually put out a quality game with a certain amount of adult content. A lot of "westerners" think it was amusing that blood is turned green to get accepted in other countries but we had a game here which not only did the same thing but covered a topless model and still couldn't get the Teen rating it wanted and it was stuck with M, and walmart wouldn't carry it. These stores certainly won't carry AO titles but they stock their book shelves full of rated R movies that carry similar content.

Quoting Savyg,

reply 30

They tried banning alcohol. It didn't work so well.

<g> no kidding? It doesn't stop them from trying to place ridiculous laws on video games though. There have been several bills drafted on the issue though they rarely see the light of day. Thanks to Jack Thompson's pitiful attempts a few of them have been tossed I think.

Quoting Charvel1,

reply 31

There are only a few on that list that are non-porn games. So, why the general upheaval in this thread about we gamers getting access to alcohol but not AO rated games. That's just a crap argument that comes out of your individual PERCEPTION and not cold hard facts. Again, I defy you to name ONE SINGLE GAME that we have been denied access to here in the USA (based on game rating) but that others around the world have had access to. Walmart may not want to carry a game, but there are lots of other stores that will. And if you can't find it in a store you could download it.

Porn games count as games, I don't know why you keep trying to remove them. Nobody making another type of game will let it be released with the AO rating, because no AO game can get published on a console.

Why is that? The console makers don't allow it. And why is that? Special interest "moral" groups (largley dominated by conservative types) jump on them if they do. Insane violence is perfectly okay as long as there's no naked people.

Censorship goes on within game developers to avoid that AO rating because it hurts your retail chances so much, not because there's no market for those games.

Anyway, on the original topic... I hope so. It's a good way to distribute such content, and the buying demogrpahics don't give a damn what the morality police think anyway. I wonder if Impulse will get any AO games?

I don't mind stores not carrying adult content in general. It could get ridiculous. I just wish digital distributors didn't get held to the same standard, when it's easier to be sure users are actually the relevant age to be seeing it.

In general, censorship isn't a huge deal to me. I understand the reasoning enough. But when you've got games that are barely all that far away from AO already and the boundaries on what is acceptable are obviously being pushed, it's about time to change things up.

Porn games count as games, I don't know why you keep trying to remove them. Nobody making another type of game will let it be released with the AO rating, because no AO game can get published on a console.

Why is that? The console makers don't allow it. And why is that? Special interest "moral" groups (largley dominated by conservative types) jump on them if they do. Insane violence is perfectly okay as long as there's no naked people.

Never said porn games weren't games. I'm discounting porn games here only because they have no grounds in this discussion. In the context of the OP it's generally a given that he's not referring to porn games.

What the OP is asking is: Will we see more M or AO rated games developed as a result of the growing digital download market.

My answer is probably not more than we've seen already. By that I mean this. Let's say there were 300 games developed last year. Let's say 10 of those were AO games and let's say 30 of those were M games (I'm just guessing here). Now, more and more people begin to catch onto the digital download method of purchasing games. Will developers 'up the ante' so to speak on the content because they know that they aren't restricted to risky box covers in retail stores? Maybe. But I'm guessing we would see the same ratio of various rated content throughout the years because a good quality game that appeals to most people is what sells. Not fringe games that might be top quality gaming but push the edge too far for too many people.

Allowing full freedom to developers results in mediocre games.

Placing severe censorship restrictions on developers will result in creativity and excellent games.

Freedom must be stamped out wherever it rears its ugly head.

I appreciate all those who posted their points of view. It's definately been a good read. Personally, I believe we'll begin to see more and more titles that "push the envelope" as I believe the old saying that says "Sex Sells". Not only sex, but other themes that are typically not available to us in our normal, everyday lives. Violence, sex, etc. sell because the medium it's in, whether it be movies or games, allows us to experience these kinds of things vicariously, and safely. At least, that's my assessment.

Please don't get me wrong... As a parent myself, I too control and will continue to control what and when my son is exposed to certain things as best as I can. Not to shelter him completely, but to keep him from certain things until he's mature enough to comprehend. That's a whole different discussion though.... Suffice it to say, I appreciate and make use of the ratings system. I definately wouldn't want it to disappear.

I'm glad I posted the question though. It was very interesting reading everyone's points of view on the matter.

Here in Sweden we think americans have a strange sense of morality with guns and fastfood being acceptable but GOD FORBID a tit or a bottle of booze!

Duke Nukem 64:

On E1L2 just to the left of where you begin the lvl there's an armsstore instead of the PC version lickerstore....

And almost opposite to it is Duke Burger instead of the PC version stripclub (Shake it, BABY! )

Quoting Campaigner,

reply 38

Here in Sweden we think americans have a strange sense of morality with guns and fastfood being acceptable but GOD FORBID a tit or a bottle of booze!

It's not that simple. Every nation you can name has some morals held to a stricter standard than others. Singling us out is completely ignoring that.

Quoting Savyg,

reply 39

Quoting Campaigner,
reply 38
Here in Sweden we think americans have a strange sense of morality with guns and fastfood being acceptable but GOD FORBID a tit or a bottle of booze!

It's not that simple. Every nation you can name has some morals held to a stricter standard than others. Singling us out is completely ignoring that.

Too my knowledge, no legit game has actually been banned in the States. Sure retailers will refuse to stock it, but it's not actually banned. You can't say the same for several other countries.

A coin with two faces, that.

Banning vs. age categories

Films and games are VERY rarely banned, both in the US and Europe. Germany leads the list in europe, but that is because it is illegal to depict nazi flags in germany; that is the biggest cause of bans there. Generally, the bans that do come into effect are usually lifted after a (usually short) time. The wikipedia list isn't too updated on lifting bans; a quick look was enough to notice several films listed as banned that are not.

In europe it is more common, to my knowledge, that you are likely to find a wider range of products in stores - basically, there is not the same level of consumer activism to prevent things from reaching stores, but that is mostly my subjective impression, and Europe isn't a country, it's a continent with a lot of different countries - although that is slowly changing).

In both USA and Europe, age ratings for games are assigned by non-governmental organizations - ESRB and PEGI, respectively. Pegi profiles itself more clearly as a 'parental advisory' system - PEGI stands for 'Pan European Game Information' while ESRB is the more official-sounding 'Entertainment Software Ratings Board'.

Interestingly enough, I think Dragon Age was a bit of a wakeup call. It was rated Mature, and it actually IS. Yes, it has gore and sexual themes, but it is *ACTUALLY* a mature game - unlike many games with that marker... and it sold above expectations. WAY above expectations. (First sale figures was expected to be 2x those of Spore, I believe.

I think that digital distribution is less vulnerable to consumer activism, at least traditional ones, and as gamers get older - and the realization that we do get older - sinks in, concerns for age ratings are likely to become a little less absolute.

I would not be shocked - although definitely surprised (and a little amused) - to see an 'Adult Only' section in Impulse or Steam, though. It would be interesting to hear Zoomba or someone's view on this though.

Quoting Khardis,

reply 41

Interestingly enough, I think Dragon Age was a bit of a wakeup call. It was rated Mature, and it actually IS. Yes, it has gore and sexual themes, but it is *ACTUALLY* a mature game - unlike many games with that marker... and it sold above expectations. WAY above expectations. (First sale figures was expected to be 2x those of Spore, I believe.

I'm not exactly sure why you're singling out Dragon Age here. The Witcher comes to mind also (and also sold far beyond expectations.)

I'm honestly not seeing much in Dragon Age that I haven't seen in most Bioware games in one way or another, but I haven't finished it either...prolly got quite a ways to go yet.

Quoting GeneralEtrius,

reply 13

As a conservative parent who used to be a 15 year old kid, I can be fair and understand your viewpoint. While I did not appreciate my parents filtering content for me when I was young I can now appreciate and understand why as an adult. We personally filter, as much as possible, all material viewed by our children and allow them to either view/play based on how we feel they will affected by the material. This varies by each kid as they all have different tollerances and understanding. That said I am not against releaseing M or AO games. There is a market for these and it is completely acceptable to release to that market. I also don't mind people who wish to protest these games as that is the foundation for our country. In this way I believe we get a respectable approach to video and game development that gives parents the tools and information to make well informed decisions.

While I respect your parenting decisions, judging by what you've written, I think should be a little bit more liberal. Sheltering your kids and being overly controlling really isn't going to help them very much. Allowing your kids to view stuff such as sex and then having a discussion about it would help prepare them for it, and when other kids start talking about it, your kids would be more mature in approaching the subjects.

Again, these are simply my opinions. I'm not trying to tell you what to do.

As a parent (in America) I don't let my children watch my wife and I having sex. I believe it's the parent's job to protect their children from something until the right time to do so. There is a time and place for everything.

Now if you happen to agree that children shouldn't watch their parents having sex then all we do is go one step farther and believe our children shouldn't watch anyone having sex.

In America we are so exposed to sex,sex,sex we believe there need to be a line drawn somewhere.

Quoting Smidlee,

reply 43

Now if you happen to agree that children shouldn't watch their parents having sex then all we do is go one step farther and believe our children shouldn't watch anyone having sex.

In America we are so exposed to sex,sex,sex we believe there need to be a line drawn somewhere.

I am a grown woman, and I believe I shouldn't watch my parents have sex at any age. I am certainly not against adult material in general. Those two are not comparible. And if you want your children to avoid sex, parent them, as in watch what they are watching, play what they are playing, the answer is not to police adults because parents don't want to parent anymore.

That's the thing , video games are at the heart make believe. They are childish and by adding sex,profanity,gore,etc. doesn't really change this. This is why the Nintendo Wii is such a huge success and making lots more profits than the HD consoles. I still play video games because I still have some child lefted in me

Now that you agree you don't watch your parent having sex shows that you do draw the line somewhere. Some people just draw that line a little farther.

Quoting Smidlee,

reply 45

That's the thing , video games are at the heart make believe. They are childish and by adding sex,profanity,gore,etc. doesn't really change this. This is why the Nintendo Wii is such a huge success and making lots more profits than the HD consoles. I still play video games because I still have some child lefted in me.

Say what now? Video games are childish' please I beg you to explain this to me because I don't see games like grade theft auto or rapelay as childish. Is action movies and porno childish also?

The point isn't where you draw the line, the point is you, or any other adult, trying to draw the line for me. I am an adult. I don't subscribe to your morality or your views; I have my own. All games are not for children. I repeat, all games are NOT for children. There are way too many parents out here who lack this very basic understanding which is why you've got grandma's buying 13 year old boys Grand Theft Auto and throwing a hissy fit that there is sex and violence in it.

This debate, so old. Never ends.

I totaly agree that people should have a right to choose to not see whatever it is that upsets them. They have a right not to be forced into hearing swearing within reason (free speach n all). They have a right to not be forced to view sex or gore or mixed race marriage. They have a right to never speak to forgien people if they wish. I totaly support that right.

But they should have NO right to stop ME from talking to other races of people, watching sex or playing games rated N for "No sex please, we're brittish (but killin's fine)".

Quoting Smidlee,

reply 45

That's the thing , video games are at the heart make believe. They are childish and by adding sex,profanity,gore,etc. doesn't really change this. This is why the Nintendo Wii is such a huge success and making lots more profits than the HD consoles. I still play video games because I still have some child lefted in me

Now that you agree you don't watch your parent having sex shows that you do draw the line somewhere. Some people just draw that line a little farther.

Uhhh...recent studies have shown that the average gamer is in their 30's and married with at least one kid. Gaming is NOT 'for the children'...the politicians just act like it is to create an 'instant controvesy' issue that gets them points from the older generation (aka the ones who have never played a game) without them having to tackle a real issue.

Quoting Aractain,

reply 48

This debate, so old. Never ends.

I totaly agree that people should have a right to choose to not see whatever it is that upsets them. They have a right not to be forced into hearing swearing within reason (free speach n all). They have a right to not be forced to view sex or gore or mixed race marriage. They have a right to never speak to forgien people if they wish. I totaly support that right.

But they should have NO right to stop ME from talking to other races of people, watching sex or playing games rated N for "No sex please, we're brittish (but killin's fine)".

It's rather odd that you would lump interracial marriage with sex and gore in media.

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Rated M and AO Games, Will we be seeing more as digital distribution becomes more popular?