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More Evade/Dodge Items

By on November 10, 2009 1:36:40 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

We have enough +mana, +armour, +HP, +Damage but only a few items that help with evade

Assassins Footguards 10% 1750 gold

Desperate boots but only when under 30% health dodge increased 20% (Holy Crap 5000 gold for this)

Cloak of elfinkind 15% 12000 gold

All Father Ring 25000 Gold

Come on Man lets stop the health stacking and change more items. To make other builds viable

 

+12 Karma | 16 Replies
November 10, 2009 1:50:18 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

signed

November 10, 2009 1:51:33 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Autoattack isn't significant enough to matter until late game, at which point damage scaling outpaces HP stacking. This would basically just be a rook nerf.

Also there's a reason why armor has diminishing returns. There's no reason to give a scaling mitigation stat which only affects autoattack when you already have one, why such a complex mitigation scheme? End-game autodamage inflation is what makes the 8k DGs killable, it's a good thing. Also reinforcement waves are meant to be an impediment, espeically giants and cats. A DG with 60% dodge and 40% armor mitgation would just laugh them off.

November 10, 2009 2:17:46 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

obscenitor can you please be a bit more specific when you state that armor has dimishing returns? It is misleading to state that without qualification. I direct the interested viewer to the following thread. Additionally, the thread also contains information about dodge calculations.

 

November 10, 2009 2:28:16 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Not this debate again. Pretending armor doesn't have diminishing returns only works if mitigated damage is the sole source of DPS. That is obviously not the case with this game. They're taking a WoW tanking guide concept completely out of context.

It is absolutely not misleading to state armor had diminishing returns without qualification, because there is an obvious implication that I'm talking abou tthe mechanics of this game, that's the standing qualification on these boards unless noted otherwise.

November 10, 2009 2:41:01 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

So, I want to start by saying I have the utmost respect for your views and opinions, but I'm not understanding your position in this one.

As I understand it, the following is true.

1. Armor does not affect skill damage, it only affects attack damage.

2. Attack damage is mitigated, therefore armor is not diminishing in respect to attack damage.

3. Skill damage is not mitigated, therefore armor is not relevant to skill damage.

Additionally, dodge functions the same way (as far as I know), because I have yet to see in game or in the LUA a skill that is dodgeable.

Doesn't this lead to the statement that armor is either nondiminishing (attack) or has no effect on damage (skill)?

Another thought that occurs to me is that when you say nondiminising you aren't referring to simple damage calculations, but instead towards overall game damage calculations? That is, the effect of armor remains constant, however the proportion of damage dealt by skills increases as the game lengths. Thus at some point you will be taking relatively more unmitigated damage than mitigated damage.

If this is the case, then better terminology may prove useful to discriminate between attack damage, skill damage, and (for lack of a better word) combined damage.

November 10, 2009 3:05:12 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

In WoW when this came up it was reference to a boss fight (like Patchwerk) where all damage received was purely physical and was mitigated by armor. On that kind of fight, armor as a survival stat had no diminishing returns, and what people meant by that is that your time to live (TTL) would increase linearly with your armor until you reached the game's artificial armor cap.

In Demigod and on other fights in Warcraft that is clearly not the case. Armor at lower values increases your TTL by amounts comparable or superior to other defensive stats, such as dodge, HP, or damage reduction (only on one artifact atm). However, in this game armor quickly becomes objectively inferior to other stats as a survival ability. It is only from a purely abstract numerical perspective that successively larger armor values do not provide far less benefit than lower ones.

 

Dodge's value is dissimilar to armor's because while it doesn't mitigate skills, the amount of dodge provided on existing items is far more generous than the actual mitigation values armor provides, hence the need fairly low cap.

Once you hit about 1500 armor the amount of armor needed to reach 5-10% more mitigation increases dramatically. For dodge that value remains constant because it's provided as an additive % modifier, not a value which is then put through an equation to provide scaling mitigation. That is the diffrence between the two values. The mechanics are fundamentally inverted, dodge is hard to build up to meaningful amounts but possible to build to insane amounts, and armor is easy to build up to an effective value but impossible to build to extreme levels.

Furthermore they both modify the same value, which is autoattack (and tower/independent weapon) damage.

 

Here's a very simple spreadsheet that'll let you put in values to see what the mitigation becomes, if you're interested.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ah6a5m2rBbMydFhtbTI1Y2dVNTBMUENtUDZyVm8yVGc&hl=en

 

I should do more with it, but I haven't gotten around to it.

In summation what you've gotta realize is that no one else really cares. Virtually no one who reads this thread will really find any of this so interesting that they'll go out and improve my spreadsheet or calculate the exact item configuration which gives the most survivability. What 99% of the people playing this game care about is that when your armor is low, getting armor is important; when your armor is high, getting more armor is less beneficial than other stats. Thus its value diminishes in the only truly meaningful way.

November 10, 2009 4:05:07 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Upon reading your reply I have come to conclude that you are indeed referring to an increase in survivability across all damage, and not specific sources of damage. Your position is based on how damage from all sources affects survivability. Furthermore, I agree with your belief that as a game continues the value of armor typically diminishes.

At this point however, I begin to disagree. The reason that armor diminishes is because of the increase in skill damage, not because of the mechanics. If you are fighting a demigod that focuses on skill damage (i.e., Torchbearer) armor is of very little use to you. In contrasts against an attack build (i.e., auto-attacking Regulus), armors value never decreases.

Your view on dodge is mostly congruent with my own. I have some slight differences in interpretation, however given the relative rarity of dodge items, it doesn't amount to much.

At this point, however, I must object and be insulted by your claims. You reference me to a spreadsheet which contains the effect of armor upon mitigation. Furthermore, as you point out, this is a relatively simplistic display of the effect of armor created to provide a simple understandable guideline. I object because if you had consulted, even briefly, the link to the post I had provided (presented again here: https://forums.demigodthegame.com/365017 ), you would have found that it contains all of the information you presented in table form at the very top of the document. Furthermore it goes on to perform other calculations that are relevant to Demigods because they were perfomed using the Demigod data and formulas. Additionally, not only am I familiar with the post, but I wrote it. Hence I would suggest I am somewhat familiar with the underlying relationships. While I may disagree with your presentation, I have considered all of your points and evidence. I feel it poor behavior to not have the same consideration in return.

Regardless of all of this, the point is that the worth of armor decreases because of the increase in skill damage.To evaluate the worth of armor in regards to overall survivability would require not only examining the effective value of armor versus hit points versus dodge, but also involve increases in damage dealt. As the truism goes, in many cases, the most effective defense, is a good offense.

I agree that (virtually) no one cares. This board is filled with people that are busy not caring, reading, or thinking. However, you do represent a portion of the board that does have the ability to listen, think, and care. It has been a continous annoyance that people are allowed or perhaps encouraged to represent themselves without dignity or tolerance for others. However, this isn't the place for that discussion.

If we want to generate a general rule upon the worth of items, it seems that something regarding specialization would be appropriate, based upon level. That is to say, in early game focus on survivability, hit points, armor, speed, and an adequate level of mana regernation. Buy the most cost effective pieces, as many as possible. In late game, switch to offense, mana (for skill damage), +damage & attack speed if you auto-attack, and speed. I haven't done enough work on this to be ablet to say anything concrete, however if we are creating general rules this seems to be the better path to take, rather than to just say only get X units of armor.

November 10, 2009 4:58:04 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

In contrasts against an attack build (i.e., auto-attacking Regulus), armors value never decreases.
Yeah, but Regulus is the only DG with a pure autoattack build, that build isn't generally considered very competitive (virtually all good players will at least get mines), and you've gotta admit that even then it's a peculiar 1v1 build. This is why I say that any situation in which the value of armor follows logic behind non-diminishing returns is purely academic/hypothetical.

Really you and I are just arguing semantics. When I say "diminish" I'm referring to the overall value of the stat as a mitigation tool, and you're referring to it as a pure anti-auto-attack mechanic. You state in your post that Dodge's value is modified by armor, and the converse is obviously true as well. Both are also modified by the amount of skill damage present, which is a variable affected by character level and equipment selection, so really what we get is a big, complicated mix of a bunch of figures which make a pretty dynamic mitigation environment as far as mitigation is concerned.

You and I are just simply viewing it from different perspectives. As I said you're more interested in the hypotheticals, I'm more interested in the pratical thresholds at which I make different itemization choices. I can appreciate that you'd like to see more dodge items, as there is a dearth of them at the moment, but I just see their implementation as problematic for a few reasons:

  • most players are unaware of the dodge cap and more dodge items would produce results incongruous with players' expectations because of it
  • it's generally agreed upon that autoattack enhancing items (short of artifacts) are not desireable enough as-is. This would exacerbate that
  • Rook depends largely on damage which can be mitigated, it would unfairly punish Rook
  • Ultimately dodge is random, and honestly I don't even like the quad-crit mechanic on Ashkandor
November 10, 2009 5:14:18 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I agree with Obscenitor; it would be unwise to create more dodge effects considering the already mitigatable effects of autoattacks.

November 10, 2009 5:19:42 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting obscenitor,

In contrasts against an attack build (i.e., auto-attacking Regulus), armors value never decreases.Yeah, but Regulus is the only DG with a pure autoattack build, that build isn't generally considered very competitive (virtually all good players will at least get mines), and you've gotta admit that even then it's a peculiar 1v1 build. This is why I say that any situation in which the value of armor follows logic behind non-diminishing returns is purely academic/hypothetical.


Really you and I are just arguing semantics. When I say "diminish" I'm referring to the overall value of the stat as a mitigation tool, and you're referring to it as a pure anti-auto-attack mechanic. You state in your post that Dodge's value is modified by armor, and the converse is obviously true as well. Both are also modified by the amount of skill damage present, which is a variable affected by character level and equipment selection, so really what we get is a big, complicated mix of a bunch of figures which make a pretty dynamic mitigation environment as far as mitigation is concerned.

You and I are just simply viewing it from different perspectives. As I said you're more interested in the hypotheticals, I'm more interested in the pratical thresholds at which I make different itemization choices. I can appreciate that you'd like to see more dodge items, as there is a dearth of them at the moment, but I just see their implementation as problematic for a few reasons:


most players are unaware of the dodge cap and more dodge items would produce results incongruous with players' expectations because of it
it's generally agreed upon that autoattack enhancing items (short of artifacts) are not desireable enough as-is. This would exacerbate that
Rook depends largely on damage which can be mitigated, it would unfairly punish Rook
Ultimately dodge is random, and honestly I don't even like the quad-crit mechanic on Ashkandor

I just want a way to get to 30% cap without using the 12000 cloak or 25000 all father ring.

If I use Pendent of grace at 10% and assassins footguards that gets me to 20% evade. which means I miss out on BoTF and Hauburk or unbreakable boots which is a 1400 hp difference not including armour and monks improved healing. That is just too much hp too make up especially since I used a favor Item that is suppose to be better cause it costs more favor points.

November 10, 2009 7:50:36 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I just want a way to get to 30% cap without using the 12000 cloak or 25000 all father ring.
That raises a few questions for me though:

  • 30% is a pretty low number for a cap on a stat, and I would assume that it means the devs actually don't want dodge to be a major part of the game. If that's true, how would you convince them otherwise?
  • Dodge's function, reducing autoattack/tower damage, is already covered fairly well by armor. Not that, but it has a multiplicative effect, and currently there seems to be a consensus that DPS items aren't worth the money. Do you feel it would exacerbate that problem?
  • It seems especially punitive to tower and minion builds. Do you feel the disproportionate effectiveness against these builds is a needed balance shift for the game?
November 11, 2009 12:26:53 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I think it would be annoying as hell to play against a demigod that has a 50% dodge rate.  Imagine being in a close fight late game and being "unlucky" and missing 3 attacks in a row, missing out on the finishing blow.  30% dodge cap seems high enough, though it could probably be cheaper.

November 11, 2009 10:05:36 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

i think that every ability or attribute thats based on propability is questionable. thats why i truly dont care that dodge is pretty much unimportant in this game.

November 12, 2009 5:09:05 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Jeez

I hate that Obscenitor is right

I just wanted dodge items

November 12, 2009 8:31:11 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Nah, I think I'm wrong on this one, they did end up raising the cap a bit and they did increase the total amount of available dodge. This patch is probably rook's doom.

November 12, 2009 1:44:27 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting obscenitor,
Nah, I think I'm wrong on this one, they did end up raising the cap a bit and they did increase the total amount of available dodge. This patch is probably rook's doom.

Ahaha my dodge will stop your powerful attacks from... uff... oww... <waves hand in front of face>... dammit stop those bloody arrows!!!!

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