My idea to fix QoT

By XaviorsFist on October 27, 2009 9:22:22 PM from

Now I don't think there needs to be a drastic change in QoT to make her good just a few skill switches which I explain below.

First off her damage is gets really bad as the game goes on. Her tanking barely makes up for it and against multiple targets you are screwed. So I plan to take away entourage and replace compost to replace with better passives that would benifit her greatly and probally change peoples view of her around. Now this would mainly benefit closed QoT not open (still would be good for open too, would add variety) so if anyone has a good idea for increasing open's powers then please post below. I myself have a partial idea formed in my head. Another problem is uproot but I'll leave that for someone else to fix. Because this would make uproot unneeded in demolition.

Now my open idea has to be explained before I get into my others or it doesn't make sense. It mainly is this:

Add these to QoT's open form
Increased maximum health by 25%
15% damage vampire effect from enemies. Works against buildings but not with abilities. We don't need a super godly AoE QoT running around. Although that would be amazing.
Decrease in mana costs by 25% (hungerling crown would take 25% of the remaining 75%)

First off fixing entourage.

What I think

Waste of skill points. All the other demigods have an ability that increases health with their summon. QoT however does not.
Not enough of a benifit. At 4 shamblers that 30 damage still isn't enough to be worth a 3 skill points.

My fix

Combine with summon shambler.

Now we need a replacement so how about...

Thorn Mastery - Various bonus's to shamblers and QoT's attack

Level 1 - (Level 2 passive)

So I don't want to start it too strong and a shambler bonus at level 1 wouldn't be worth getting because if you get this at all it'll probally be early and 1 shambler with 10 damage isn't doing much.
It gives QoT's closed attack increased area and 40 extra damage. For open it adds 4% increased vampire effect.

Level 2 - (Level 5 passive)

Now at level 5 you probally have a much better chance if you are going shamblers to have enough to give a bonus.
It gives QoT's closed attack more increased area and 80 extra damage. For open it adds 8% increased vampire effect.
Shamblers gain 2 range and 25 damage.

Level 3 - (Level 8 passive)

Just increase of what already exists.
Closed attack even more area and 100 extra damage. For open it adds 12% increased vampire effect.
Shamblers gain 4 range and 50 damage

Level 4 passive ability - (level 15 passive) - Nutrient Draining

Now seeing as QoT at this point would be at a particular disadvantage we add a lot to the open form ability while giving a nice bonus to QoT in general
QoT's attacks cause a debuff to be placed on the enemy stacking up to 4 times doing 150 damage over 10 seconds for each application (an alternative is to have it be an armor debuffer but since we have ground spikes it seeme unneeded). I chose this because this is unnegatable damage. For 4 hits it would be doiing 600 damage over 10 seconds and get refreshed every hit for 4 stacks.
QoT's vampire effect now increases her mana by 5% of the damage done.
Shamblers gain 9 range and 65 damage.
Also increases her damage to 150 extra.

Now summon shamblers would give all the bonus health that entourage gives. It would just be combines and the damage increase taken out. To explain my changes I say this. Now as a defensive closed QoT this would be an amazing bonus to shamblers and make your damage scale that much better for the end of the game. Now sure your shamblers could snipe a tower but by the point they do enough damage to have it be significant QoT will have so much damage out of ground spikes and her auto attack it wouldn't even be a scratch. Now closed QoT wouldn't get as much as a buff as Open QoT.

Open QoT now has the ability to cast more spells and have more health than before along with the increased damage. The reason. Now the reason I made this ability effect both sides is because now all the sudden you made a hybrid QoT more possible Open QoT possible in all aspects and Closed QoT good enough to scale to endgame.

Now compost.

Ah compost... not enough of a bonus and if you do away with uproot it's useless. Now we buffed open QoT we need a buff for QoT's bramble shield and vulnerability to stuns. When stunned she is pretty much screwed 90% of the time because she can't heal and bramble shield is gone in 1 second in late game so this would need to be a usefull buff with a level 15 that makes it worthwhile. Now you could go pure bramble thorns and by level 10 be godly with your support which is what I wanted as a possibility but lacking the now buffed shamblers and open form abilities you would be damage hindered and very badly.

Nutrient Usage - Various bonus's to QoT's heal spells and resistance to stuns to make it so stuns aren't an insta-kill.

Nutrient Usage level 1 - (level 2 passive)

Now I want it to stay the same mana to health while giving it some extra oomph. This would be very powerful early game one on one but this advantage would dimish as the game goes on so it's not as OP as I would suggest.
Cooldown of Bramble Shield and Mulch is reduced by 15% (about 1 second out of the cooldown)

Nutirent Usage level 2 - (level 5 passive)

Gaining mulch at this point and if you are going suppor this would be a skill to save up and get with mulch.
Nutrients mulched form shamblers disperse healing nearby allies for the same amount as the damage done. (So not particuallarly much but significant as the game goes on scaling well good for keeping your creeps alive so maybe your giants don't die as fast so usefull end game)
Bramble thorns and mulch shamblers cost 15% less mana.

Nutrient Usage level 3 - (Level 8 passive)

Increase of abilities
Bramble thorns and mulch shamblers cost 30% less mana.
Mulch gains increased range aroudn shambler mulched.

The Queen of Thorns - (level 15 passive)

Now at this point the previous buffs just aren't enough to scale bramble shield so this is mainly a buff for it.
More increased range for mulch around shambler mulched.
Bramble thorns cost is reduced by 40% and can be cast while stunned.
When QoT dies all allies within 30 yards (including creeps) gain a bramble shield absorbing 400 damage. (The animation for this would be very small.)

Now this would buff support QoT so that endgame she is usefull while breaking some of the need of mana items makeing it possible to actually get other items. Now her damage would be absolutely horrible besides mulch but if you focus in this you shouldn't be expecting high damage. I wanted to make a demigod that could be full on support when needed.

A shoutout to Gkrit for giving me the idea on this through his many posts regarding QoT.

I hope you guys like it. I'm almost afraid to post this and see the infinite wall of text that stands before me. If you got to this part you probally have some questions so feel free to ask and I will respond to the best of my ability.

And Gkrit gave me a good idea and with his permission his post has been added below. You can read the post in context by reading through replies

early creep waves consists of about 7 creeps. Now if you lvl1 ground spikes (250dmg) them, the 5% vampiric in total will give you 87.5 health. now thats barely your full health.

last lvl ground spikes (625 dmg and 5% vamp) killing 9 creeps, ull gain 281 health when using the skill.
>> Thats still barely "full health"and would only take 1.5 auto attacks to rid you of that health just gained. Its effectiveness would increase nicely with narmoths, but the expense is 4000 gold. Worth the money now?...
last lvl ground spikes (625 dmg and 13% vamp) killing 9 creeps, ull gain 731 health when using the skill.
>> Thats half of heal. Consider this skill as an alternate functionality to surge of faith. Surge of faith boosts nearby allies' movemetn and attack speed, but it comboes up nicely with that skill line that grants health and mana with each kill you make.
ALSO, think about it for a bit, say if your losing and creeps are raping at ur citadel, a qot could effectively push them back now giving ur team a chance to recover from the tough situation coz it SCALES BETTER late game. NOW THAT could be a unique ability for QoT.

**youd have to hit roughly 18 creeps to get to about sednas last heal strength. To me that seems like a nice easy balance.
I know sedna doesnt do mass aoe dmg when she heals (ignoring the 200 dmg she deals at last lvl), but she can negate all debuffs and that itself is VERY powerful and can mean life from death.

+11 Karma | 17 Replies

WTF??? This is the most OP thing i have ever seen?

So with the level 8 passive ability you will have +100 extra damage to aa, and +50 damage to every shambler???

then at level 10 with 4 shamblers (4*50) = 200 damage from shamblers + 300 damage from qot = 500 damage total???

+shield + mulch shambler = the unkillable GODLY OP QoT. Then you can just wander around and kill everybody without getting scratched.

Sounds like a bad dream! LOL

The numbers will of course be changable. Perhaps comment on the idea?

Maybe less damage buff would be nice.

why is closed form getting a dmg buff rather than open?

u mentioned open will get vampric, but vampiric effect is useless, unless you have high attack power and att rate. If you are doing 150 dmg while open form, 10% vampiric only = 15 health gained with each hit roughly every 1.4 secs.

ive got a suggestion, and that is to incorporate a vampiric effect in to ground spikes. You steal 5% of the total dmg u inflict on each enemy hit. All vampiric bonus you have stack ontop of this, so if you have narmoths ring the vampiric effect increases to 13%. Finally, vampiric effect will be useful. Ground spikes is mana expensive anyway so this would be a good addition to the skill and add some survivorability while in open form.

Quoting gkrit,

reply 4

why is closed form getting a dmg buff rather than open?

u mentioned open will get vampric, but vampiric effect is useless, unless you have high attack power and att rate. If you are doing 150 dmg while open form, 10% vampiric only = 15 health gained with each hit roughly every 1.4 secs.

ive got a suggestion, and that is to incorporate a vampiric effect in to ground spikes. You steal 5% of the total dmg u inflict on each enemy hit. All vampiric bonus you have stack ontop of this, so if you have narmoths ring the vampiric effect increases to 13%. Finally, vampiric effect will be useful. Ground spikes is mana expensive anyway so this would be a good addition to the skill and add some survivorability while in open form.

Then all you have to do when fighting an enemy DG is use ground spikes near creeps and you get Full Health. just like that.

definitely OP

full health??? i did some calculations b4 posting that. and btw, i think u deserve that amount of health if you saved up to buy such an expensive equip like narmoths.

early creep waves consists of about 7 creeps. Now if you lvl1 ground spikes (250dmg) them, the 5% vampiric in total will give you 87.5 health. now thats barely your full health.

Hmm i didnt calculate it like you did gkrit. Then 5% is fine. balanced. I totally agree with this. I just thought u were saying 5% at level 1 and 12% in level 8. i see it is balanced now that u explained.

I would like to hear what Xaviors has to say about it.

xaviors always got something to say

Lol I would just like to see her AA fixed and uproot changed. Think that would make her viable.

These are actually really good ideas, subject to the numbers balancing and all. Fantastic, dev's should notice!

Seems inspired by the rest of the cast, and not much too out of the spirit of the game.

I like the diversion of damage and hp for shamblers being split into two trees. The entourage was quite a waste of a potential skill line, and the new line which prioritises and buffs QOTs auto attacks, and shambler range/damage seem very intuitive.

The DOT effect of the open attack level 15 could be a debuff, but it could be made simpler to understand. It could use the already present QOT death effect of of Entangle/Entrap/Ensnare/whatever it is called to symbolise such DOT? With a simple 50dps for 10 seconds etc.

The vampiric aura could be re-named to something foresty though, and potentially the 5% mana regen upon hit at lvl15 is an aura too?

Queen being able to gain mana + hp from aoes or attacks is definately viable, considering oak can already do it with divine justive specced.

If by the 2nd level shamblers can outrange towers, that would make it versatile to get a few levels in a hybrid closed build, or in combination with a "leave and forget" cannoners+uproot+shamblers tower attack squad.

I also love the idea of shamblers healing for damage caused, and that increases in the skill increase the radius of mulch shambler, which isn't so much at the moment.

I dislike the idea of bramble shield being castable whilst stunned, as stunning anyone but oaks invulnerable shield seems out of context.

A suggestion instead, that perhaps a level of nutrient usage will allow for shamblers to be used as mobile stuns when mulched? With longer stuns as the level are upgraded? The gameplay potentials are enormously fun. Especially because it would encourage hybrid builds to utilize it.

Would you have any changes for uproot? The suggested heal tower for equal damage perhaps?

All in all, great ideas. Would love to see most of them in the game, alebit numbers balanced.

Quoting gkrit,

reply 4

Well that was OP and thats why I added the entrouage ability. By level 10 you could be doing 300 damage with 22% vampire effect. Much more effective. Maybe increase this vampire effect more. My main idea is that it won't get used in ground spikes or that it would be a very weak version incorperated into ground spikes maybe 5%. But this was a heal to make open at least last a while in combat. I agree a weak version incorperated into ground spikes would be nice or heck replace uproot with a DoT that drains health from enemies. 20 health per second per enemy within zone. High cooldown... hmmm i'm onto something.

Quoting kitch45,

reply 10

These are actually really good ideas, subject to the numbers balancing and all. Fantastic, dev's should notice!

Seems inspired by the rest of the cast, and not much too out of the spirit of the game.

I like the diversion of damage and hp for shamblers being split into two trees. The entourage was quite a waste of a potential skill line, and the new line which prioritises and buffs QOTs auto attacks, and shambler range/damage seem very intuitive.

The DOT effect of the open attack level 15 could be a debuff, but it could be made simpler to understand. It could use the already present QOT death effect of of Entangle/Entrap/Ensnare/whatever it is called to symbolise such DOT? With a simple 50dps for 10 seconds etc.

The vampiric aura could be re-named to something foresty though, and potentially the 5% mana regen upon hit at lvl15 is an aura too?

Queen being able to gain mana + hp from aoes or attacks is definately viable, considering oak can already do it with divine justive specced.

If by the 2nd level shamblers can outrange towers, that would make it versatile to get a few levels in a hybrid closed build, or in combination with a "leave and forget" cannoners+uproot+shamblers tower attack squad.

I also love the idea of shamblers healing for damage caused, and that increases in the skill increase the radius of mulch shambler, which isn't so much at the moment.

I dislike the idea of bramble shield being castable whilst stunned, as stunning anyone but oaks invulnerable shield seems out of context.

A suggestion instead, that perhaps a level of nutrient usage will allow for shamblers to be used as mobile stuns when mulched? With longer stuns as the level are upgraded? The gameplay potentials are enormously fun. Especially because it would encourage hybrid builds to utilize it.

Would you have any changes for uproot? The suggested heal tower for equal damage perhaps?

All in all, great ideas. Would love to see most of them in the game, alebit numbers balanced.

Thanks for the response. Yeah the vampiric ability would be renamed. The Dot effect of open open attack (which also effects closed) would be simplified if it is needed.

I purposely made shamblers outrange towers. This way by going into the former entourage ability and summon shamblers you actually could make a pretty powerful build. I don't think we would need to add anything more to shamblers. Bramble shield while stunned wouldn't be that OP considering if you have him stunned they probally would die. Plus it's a leve 15 skill. QoT wouldn't be trapped. How is this any more unfair than shield and run or batswarm.

I'm going to create an alternate post for my uproot idea which would go along with the ideas I have here. Don't need to make this post longer though.

I don't like your idea that shamblers could stun while mulched. That would be bad news. I wanted to keep QoT interrupt/stun free. How about making spike wave instant? Wouldn't that qualify as a slow and make up for it's high mana cost?

Quoting morpheas768,

reply 1

WTF??? This is the most OP thing i have ever seen?

So with the level 8 passive ability you will have +100 extra damage to aa, and +50 damage to every shambler???

then at level 10 with 4 shamblers (4*50) = 200 damage from shamblers + 300 damage from qot = 500 damage total???

+shield + mulch shambler = the unkillable GODLY OP QoT. Then you can just wander around and kill everybody without getting scratched.

Sounds like a bad dream! LOL

Yeah it is a dream. But numbers can be changed. And you do realize how slow shamblers attack. It's something like 2 seconds or around there. Now considering that armor also negates these things it wouldn't matter as much in health stacking. I purposely made these damage numbers high knowing that they would be negated by damage. Upping shield and mulch now requires that you spend a ton of points into it early game. That skill was more a skill to scale it to late game. Expecially the level 1 so that if you need that extra healing end game it can give you a little oopmh for only 1 skill point. You aren't taking into consideration how many skill points you would need for these abilities to be into full effect.

Quoting gkrit,

reply 6

full health??? i did some calculations b4 posting that. and btw, i think u deserve that amount of health if you saved up to buy such an expensive equip like narmoths.

early creep waves consists of about 7 creeps. Now if you lvl1 ground spikes (250dmg) them, the 5% vampiric in total will give you 87.5 health. now thats barely your full health.

last lvl ground spikes (625 dmg and 5% vamp) killing 9 creeps, ull gain 281 health when using the skill.
>> Thats still barely "full health"and would only take 1.5 auto attacks to rid you of that health just gained. Its effectiveness would increase nicely with narmoths, but the expense is 4000 gold. Worth the money now?...
last lvl ground spikes (625 dmg and 13% vamp) killing 9 creeps, ull gain 731 health when using the skill.
>> Thats half of heal. Consider this skill as an alternate functionality to surge of faith. Surge of faith boosts nearby allies' movemetn and attack speed, but it comboes up nicely with that skill line that grants health and mana with each kill you make.
ALSO, think about it for a bit, say if your losing and creeps are raping at ur citadel, a qot could effectively push them back now giving ur team a chance to recover from the tough situation coz it SCALES BETTER late game. NOW THAT could be a unique ability for QoT.

**youd have to hit roughly 18 creeps to get to about sednas last heal strength. To me that seems like a nice easy balance.
I know sedna doesnt do mass aoe dmg when she heals (ignoring the 200 dmg she deals at last lvl), but she can negate all debuffs and that itself is VERY powerful and can mean life from death.

Love the ability. I can add that into the origial post under your name if you give me permission to. It's something that would make open QoT more viable for a damage build and keep her alive.

Quoting gkrit,

reply 8

xaviors always got something to say

Thank you lol

Quoting morpheas768,

reply 7

I mosly just don't want it to be the 22% vampire effect. By the time creeps become numerous enough even hitting 20 creeps with 600 damage with 10% vampire wouldn't be too strong. It scales well with the number of creeps.

Quoting Cowbuttzex,

reply 9

Lol I would just like to see her AA fixed and uproot changed. Think that would make her viable.

I fixed the AA and a few other abilities. Fixing uproot now. If you read this before I post the link then I'm probally creating the uproot post.

Thank you all very much. Maybe this would be incorperated. It would be wonderful if this would be.

Frogboy! Looky here.

yeh go ahead and list my suggestion in ur post if you want. all im doing is just trying to make her offense side more appealing.

Quoting Cowbuttzex,

reply 9

Lol I would just like to see her AA fixed and uproot changed. Think that would make her viable.

Maybe +5% speed too. I'd just like to be able to kill Demigods with QoT rather than just be able hold them off and shield my teammates.

Quoting Makeshift-D,

reply 13

Quoting Cowbuttzex, reply 9Lol I would just like to see her AA fixed and uproot changed. Think that would make her viable.

+1

Maybe +5% speed too. I'd just like to be able to kill Demigods with QoT rather than just be able hold them off and shield my teammates.

well shes more of a support character, so i dont think you should be joining a game with Qot and expecting to kill as many demigods as UB or oak would.

Agreeed and added gkrit.

Now I don't think there needs to be a drastic change in QoT to make her good just a few skill switches which I explain below.

And everything below was extra OP!!! Lol - not ! I wasnt laughing, was like 'Are you crazy?!'

Well, there are some good ideas, yes, but i personaly dont agree with your detailed concept of them (well, in most of it). Not just concerning the numbers, but in general; like the skills seems too complicated - many buffs/effects at once, & and adding different on almost each lvl of skill.

And why changing names? Nutrient usage you can easily left to be called Compost imo.

And, i actually don't understand what you mean by this in beginning:

Add these to QoT's open form
Increased maximum health by 25%
15% damage vampire effect from enemies. Works against buildings but not with abilities. We don't need a super godly AoE QoT running around. Although that would be amazing.
Decrease in mana costs by 25% (hungerling crown would take 25% of the remaining 75%)

Is it like effect she will gain when she switches in open mode? (judging by description of last effect it is)

Makeshift-D

In that case i think that is so OP. Imagine her late game now with lets say 5000 Hp in open form, with yours +25% in open form she goes to 6250 Hp!! plus she also gets +15% vampiric aura effect > that more than Erebus +10% on 15th lvl! (with him +25%!!! - late game that's huge) plus 25% decreased mana cost bonus is not necessary to be implemented that way - you'r just complicating - why not just easily decrease the cost of that spells in general (no need for doing it with 'effect of -25% mana cost in open mode' description) (And I think that hungerling crown reduces it for 35% (unless they changed that - it was some bug)

But i like idea of some king of vampiric aura for her, i've thought of it myself before.

There are however many stuff i disagree with you - like the idea that mulch also heals nearby allies; mulch is like some kind of explosion(!), it doesnt seem logical to me, plus if she do it near herself she'll get extra healing, and mulch is already quite good. I actually thought about it for Sedna (yes! Sedna!), her heal 4 is 1500 (not much more than heal 3 = 1200 (which gives her cleaning effect), and i think that only 200 dmg (on heal4)to surrounding enemies is not enough, so i would give her also effect of +200 to heal surrounding allies on heal4 - but of course, she is not the priority now.

i don't want to go in detail about what i dont disagree with you now, i maybe later give my ideas. I have to check your Uproot idea also.

How about making spike wave instant?

Yes!, or even just if animation would be faster, that's what she needs here

Makeshift:

Maybe +5% speed too. I'd just like to be able to kill Demigods with QoT rather than just be able hold them off and shield my teammates.

Well, i have told few times before (and some other ppl already), that compost should give her extra mov & att speed(and also dmg increase). So how about that?

Furthermore, one of my ideas is that Compost should be the skill that allows her to have increased health regeneration based on the numbers of dead bodies around her.

What do you think?

(Some other ideas later on, i'm busy atm.)

I'm not quoting that. And the reason I made every level differant is so that there is depth to her. It doesn't need to be that way but adding a level 2 skill that gives shambler damage increased AoE and a ton of other abilities. That would be OP. And things can be changed but you are one oppinion. Me myself think these stack up well against abilities that UB or Oak or Erebus has.

Yes that means it's like the regen closed gets except that it's for Open. That 25% health when switching from closed to open stays at the same percent so going from 4k health to 5k health and you have 3k you just go up to the same percent meaning 3250.

I did not confirm that vampire aura. I myself thought that was overkill It's for her and only her.
Mulch healing allies requires almost 3 points into skills to even make this useful out of 5. 250 health at level 5 isn't that much. And by the time 750 used people should be doing far more than that. And this wouldn't stack on QoT. She couldnt' get healed for her 2250 and then the 750.

Thanks for supporting the spike wave idea.

QoT is not a killer Demigod. If you give QoT more attack and move speed in addition to my proposed Ideas QoT just becomes too strong and too much of a killer. I focused on shamblers and support and a buff to open's survivability. The compost allowing extra health regeneration isn't a complicated skill? It's far more complicated than anything I suggested. Plus it wouldn't be worth it unless it was some large regen but that would be too strong.

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My idea to fix QoT