Increase the cast duration for LOCKS!!

Oak still can secure the win. Sedna can, but will probably die. Now, NO ONE ELSE CAN. That is a buff, because he does something that only ONE other demigod can do, instead of FIVE.

Are you implying that Oak doesn't already have a massive cap lock advantage?

Oak can do something only ONE demigod can do right now, and that's waltz up to a portal as a cap lock expires, shield, lock, and teleport to safety when three enemies are standing there. That's a totally unique Oak ability that would be removed with a 3 second cap lock cast, and it would be a much, much bigger loss than you acknowledge.

Oak has cap lock superiority no matter what. A cap lock cast time increase would weaken his effectiveness with cap locks just as much as any other DG, the fact is he's just better in that respect and will remain so regardless of what you do.

Ok... now I get what you are saying, hedgie. You do make a fair point.

So, as it stands now, as obs put it pretty well: "Oak can do something only ONE demigod can do right now, and that's waltz up to a portal as a cap lock expires, shield, lock, and teleport to safety when three enemies are standing there. That's a totally unique Oak ability that would be removed with a 3 second cap lock cast, and it would be a much, much bigger loss than you acknowledge."

There's no other DG that could do this OVER AND OVER again. Is that imbalanced? I'd argue no (even though some will disagree) as the other team could just as easily do the exact same thing with an oak. But, recognizing that this would REQUIRE the other team to have an oak to counter, perhaps its is a little OP. So, how do we make oak less OP at this? As indicated, increasing the lock time does make SOME difference. The oak can still lock and it would be pretty difficult to block, but at least you have a decent chance at killing him. But, let's say you kill the oak after he locks. Now he's dead. He can more than likely just port back in, relock, and die again. The way to mitigate against this would be to have the cooldown time increased on locks. I'd argue that the increase would have to be something somewhat substantial, like 1.5 minutes. This would mean the oak could not spam locks by himself and would require other teammates to maintain a lock on the portal. THAT, and probably only that, would mitigate against oak being able to lock over and over again. Being able to kill him would be nice, but if I can't keep him from locking over and over again, odds are I've lost the game at the giants level. So, crazy as it sounds, I propose a 3 second cast time, and a 90 second cool down timer. This way, the oak maintains his advantage of being able to lock ONCE without being stopped, but he can't just keep doing the same thing over and over again. I personally think this is a good solution that enables him to keep his strength, but also enable the other team to counter it if they coordinate.

All of that said, back to what hedgie was talking about. The odds of getting interupted locking a portal go up quite a bit. So, even though oak can instantly interrupt someone trying to lock a flag, he can't be everywhere at once. This means that locking an important portal will be more difficult (that sounds reasonable, though, right? - locking a portal should be difficult).

if i remember correctly, rooks slam is 2 seconds. It is super easy to interrupt his slam. so the point im trying to get to is that 3 seconds is just way to long cast time for a lock. Id say 2 secs cast time for locks will be fair or even 1.5 secs. Im also trying to cater for internet lag times which i get quite a lot when trying to interrupt a 1 sec skill.

if your not able to interrupt a 2 sec cast skill/item, then imo, ur just not good enough.

but i think what is rlly needed is a longer cooldown time as pacov has stated. Atm, chain locking is just way too easy to achieve and last time i checked, this was a team game meaning youd either haveto communicate it to ur team mates, or ur team mates take into consideration that its been locked and now its ur time to go in to follow it with another lock.

if i remember correctly, rooks slam is 2 seconds. It is super easy to interrupt his slam. so the point im trying to get to is that 3 seconds is just way to long cast time for a lock. Id say 2 secs cast time for locks will be fair or even 1.5 secs. Im also trying to cater for internet lag times which i get quite a lot when trying to interrupt a 1 sec skill.

I agree with you to some degree, but consider this: If a rook is interrupted EVERY time he attempted a hammer slam, do you think anyone would ever go hammer slam rook? No. He can be interrupted and somewhat easily at that, but only if an interupt is availabe and if its possible to cast it, and so on. By that logic, even though less flag locks would go off perfectly, there would still be flag locks, but teams would have to adjust. Send in 2 people and have them both try to lock a portal at the same time so perhaps only 1 could be interrupted. And so on. I think it would force people to work more as teams and would change the locking strategy up quite a bit.

I'd still say 3 sec cast + 90 second cool down. I could live with 2 sec cast + 90 sec cool down, but I think 3 sec is more appropriate. After all, those 3 seconds provide you 45 seconds of control on whatever flag you've acquired. If its valuable, why not pay a little more for it.

dont u think 90 secs is quite long of a cooldown though? 75 secs maybe?

with a combination of staff of renewal and -15% cooldown flag, youve effectively wiped off 26 secs from the locks cooldown.
staff of renewal will have a new purpose and the celerity flag (i think its named) willl become of even more importance, adding more strategy/tactics into the game.

I don't have the time to do the math ATM, but the super long cool down time in my mind is to mitigate primarily against the oak being able to die, come back, and relock the flag again and again (and to make it so teams have to work more together to hold portals and keep them capped). If the math works out that with staff of renewal and the cooldown flag so that an oak couldn't shield, lock, die and then port back on the portal flag shield/lock die again, then I'm all for a number lower than 90 seconds. Just my 2 cents. Even a 3 second lock with a 60 second cool down would still be an improvement.

2-3 sec cast time woutd be appropriate!

rook hammer is 1.5 sec cast time (afaik)

Oak can't get Staff of Renewel.

Sedna gets stronger with a longer cooldown time: Magnificent Presence.

Even with a 90 second cooldown:

90 * (1 - .15 - .15 - .17) == 47.7 seconds. Sedna can virtual perma-lock all by herself, and Silence gives her the tools to guarentee a lock (even 3 seconds), but would probably result in her dying. Solution: Oak + Sedna. Now we can permalock on a 48 second timer, shielded, at level 15 (assuming we have your Celerity flag).I would hate to see a UB, Oak, Sedna (UB with Staff of Renewel) the only viable 3v3 team because of their ability to lock down portals infintely.

"

Oak can do something only ONE demigod can do right now, and that's waltz up to a portal as a cap lock expires, shield, lock, and teleport to safety when three enemies are standing there. That's a totally unique Oak ability that would be removed with a 3 second cap lock cast, and it would be a much, much bigger loss than you acknowledge."

I acknowledged that his ability to do so is removed, however, I'm focusing on the fact that everyother demigod except Sedna would be greviously affected. Oak is still able to do the essential action: locking the portal. Although his safety is far from guarenteed with a 3 second cast, LOCKING THE PORTAL WINS GAMES. Plus, (more than) half the time the Oak is porting TO the lock flag, locking, and then running, sometimes with Wand of Speed.

... so? I think that's a great thing. Any decent Oak will do this. It's no different than a Regulus shooting out of range of towers or a Rook hiding behind his tower farm. It's one of the flavors of the demigod and something that you really need to take into account when playing against an Oak.

"...adding more strategy/tactics into the game."

Actually, taking a lot away. Holding an enemy portal becomes much, much less viable of a strategy with a 3 second lock. The only way to win against an equally matched is a slow and steady push into the Valor flag. Which you won't be able to lock either. So... yeah it's going to be a slow, slow death as you buy lots of artifacts (Deathbringer's Silence anyone?).

Oak can't get Staff of Renewal.

Thanks for the clarification. Was in a rush at the time.

im not rlly for a 3 sec cast lock... i think its just way too long. 2 secs cast gets my vote.

im just saying the chain locking IS a game breaking task. okay, its oaks unique ability but thats not the only thing he can do. while hes not capping he can help creeps push enemy base very quickly with surge of faith, he can save team mates from dying most of the time with shield (if done well), hes got a very good interrupt skill AND he can get very high dps toward end of game.

"...adding more strategy/tactics into the game."

Actually, taking a lot away. Holding an enemy portal becomes much, much less viable of a strategy with a 3 second lock. The only way to win against an equally matched is a slow and steady push into the Valor flag. Which you won't be able to lock either. So... yeah it's going to be a slow, slow death as you buy lots of artifacts (Deathbringer's Silence anyone?).

why should chain locking be so easily achieved though with a single character. so no matter what build you use with oak (or any other character) you should be able to at any point mid game onwards, be able to go in and start chain locking. I think this unique aspect of oak should be a little more in depth requiring a certain build equips-wise. Otherwise, hes just super versatile.

And even if it means having sedna and oak having to go in together to chain lock, im all for it coz its is a team game after all. This game breaking aspect should be a challenge to achieve but still would be something that some characters could achieve more easily than others.

Quoting gkrit,

reply 36

And even if it means having sedna and oak having to go in together to chain lock, im all for it coz its is a team game after all. This game breaking aspect should be a challenge to achieve but still would be something that some characters could achieve more easily than others.

I'm perfectly okay with a1.5 second cast. 2 seconds is okay, but that's when a lot of the disadvantages start kicking in for other demigods, so I prefer 1.5.

Oak still has to put three points in shield to get this ability, more than other Demigods for their bread-and-butter skills. This is rather high-cost, and, still he is frequently porting TO a portal, then running away. If he can waltz in there, lock AND teleport away without being stun-locked then you weren't protecting your portal very well. Having an Oak on the other team means you have to watch your portals and making positive you don't lose it.

Increasing the cooldown of the lock is okay, I don't have a problem with that. However, it will shift the balance to certain different favor items and strategies (pushing the Celerity flag side only, Staff of Renewel, etc).Changing the meta ofthe game isn't bad, but, you need to consider it still.It also does help prevent just one character from being able to perma-lock, which is okay. I just think that Oak's shield is an important flavor of the character.

Ok. 2 second lock. 45 Sec duration. 65 second cooldown. Any objections?

nah im cool with that now

Quoting pacov,

reply 38

Ok. 2 second lock. 45 Sec duration. 65 second cooldown. Any objections?

sounds good.

Yes. Plus with this:

2. Flag Locks are too effective on portal flags. While it is a great strategy and the other players have surely ways to prevent it happen it is too much of a winning strategy as it ensures almost certain victory once you pulled it of on even a single enemy portal in lategame especially in 2vs2 and 3vs3, can't really speak of the bigger matches as I don't have enough experience in them. I'd like if Universal Gadget would half the remaining time of a cap lock if you cast on it. Unlike a fixed reduction, reducing the remaining time rewards those players who are just 1 second too late to prevent the flag from being captured more than those who first have to buy a universal gadget. As Universal Gadget costs twice as much as Capture Lock and only reduces the effect of it, Capture Locks on Portal Flags would remain a very strong Strategy without being nearly as annoying and instantely game winning as they are now.

> copied from:

By: TheBigOne

Tuesday 12 May 2009

Ten Ideas on how to Improve Demigod

What if the universal gadget.................COULD REMOVE A FLAG LOCK?

I mean, it does work universally on everything BUT flags at the moment. Why not make it universal?

Also adds an extra element of tactics to the usual what to hold in your items slot task, tp sigil locks or UGs?

Do you have one teammate act as a lock breaker/healer perhaps?

Quoting kitch45,

reply 42

What if the universal gadget.................COULD REMOVE A FLAG LOCK?

I mean, it does work universally on everything BUT flags at the moment. Why not make it universal?

Also adds an extra element of tactics to the usual what to hold in your items slot task, tp sigil locks or UGs?

Do you have one teammate act as a lock breaker/healer perhaps?

Allowing Gadgets to break locks AND nerfing locks pretty much destroys that strategy. Plus, if you lock a flag next to an enemys item shop, they just have to buy a Gadget, walk over, use it, cap it. It would still be viable to lock the HP flag or any ohter middle flag, but no longer portals: you have to defend the portal from the Gadget which means you are already there which makes the initial lock completely pointless.

I've mentioned my proposal to have flag locking interruptable via normal auto attacks (on the previous page). The attacks themselves shouldn't even have to deal damage for the locking process to be interrupted.

This would mean any Demigod would be able to interrupt a flag locking process regardless of what state the locker is in.

As it stands now, if your Demigod doesn't have an ability to stun, you're out of luck trying to interrupt anything. This skews the choice of Demigods in favour of those which have the ability to stun, since flag locking is such a prevalent mechanic towards end game. This is already an imbalance itself.

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