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Experience and Rankings reset

The good, bad and ugly.

By on September 22, 2009 3:41:05 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

T-Man

Join Date 03/2001
+50

Hello Demigod Fans,

I have some news to deliver.  And depending on your point of view it could be either good or bad.

We have just uncovered a major flaw in our calculation of experience points.  And if you were not aware, it is the experience point system that drives Demigod's player rankings.  So it's good news that we unconvered the bug. But it's bad news that this means the current ranking stats are pretty much useless.

So because the current experience points are incorrect we have decided to reset everyones exererience points back to the starting value of 1000.  This will completely wipe out the current rankings.  And depending on where you were in the rankings, this could be good or bad.

We did explore the possibility of recalculating everyone's experience points but it would be a major undertaking in order to accomplish that and felt it would be just too ugly to do that.  But dont worry, your current Wins/Losses/FavorPoints, FavorItems and Achievements are still intact.  We are not resetting those. So that is Good.

Now everyone can race again to get to the top of the ladder, good luck and have fun playing.

 

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September 24, 2009 6:42:58 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

A good thing, confirming what many of us suspected all along.

I was ranked 1 in Skirmish and 10 overall, and I don't think I'm that good. 

Exactly how things are now doesnt matter so much as a week or two form now once it starts to settle down, although it is kinda wrong if inactive players outrank active players.  EXP should be set to 100 until at least one game in any current "season" (for want of a better word for it) is played.

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September 25, 2009 4:57:59 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Malkaveli - Epoch

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September 25, 2009 2:37:06 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

We unfortunately cannot easily "ignore" the people with a base 1000 experience.  The problem is that those people still have their Win/Loss/Games Played records, so there's no easy way for us to tell if those numbers are before or after the experience reset. And we cannot simply ignore players with 1000 experience altogether because some people may go higher/lower than 1000, then win/lose a game to bring them back to 1000 and all of a sudden find that they aren't being counted.

I can't say we have a solution for this yet, but if we'll keep you all informed.

Bara

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September 25, 2009 7:26:09 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

GunslingerBara, doesn't your rating system keep a more accurate track of the rankings than just full numbers? I would have assumed you have them accurate to  like 4 to 10 digits after the comma. In this case the probability that someone has exactly 1000 points would be nearly 0.

You could also filter everyone out who hasn't played after the ratings got reset.

Or you could just generally place the inactive players (not played for n days) behind the active players. the inactive players would keep their rating but not their place.

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September 26, 2009 1:28:28 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting playgroundlegend,
Periodic ladder resets, say every 3 months. Create "ladder seasons" At the end of each "season" (3 months) crown a DG ladder champion, reset ladder xp points, then do it all over again.

I second this request... this and please point me toward a consolidated, end-all-be-all discription of how experience is awarded, how it is shared among teammates, is exp debited for concessions, what if i fight and lose with 2 ai on my side against 3 pro's...

...discovery learning is fine and has it's place but it has been a frustrating 6 weeks trying to figure out hoe the ladder and exp is constructed/distributed/debited...

There may already be a source, similar to what I have described here... my community rx skills still need some time and effort... if so does anyone know the link?

thx... and gg

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September 26, 2009 4:16:08 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I'm curious about this... Prussian-Havoc seems to play almost exclusively pantheon games.  He plays more games on a daily basis than me.  The ranking system currently has him at number 1.  Prussian has almost 600 more favor points than me.  Since the reset, he's played exactly 40 more games than me.  On average, he must get 15 EXP per game.  I guess this makes sense.

Here's the biggest problem with ranking and where it is absolutely completely flawed after the fix:  Using Prussian-havoc as an example - MOST OF THE PANTHEON GAMES HE'S PLAYED IN ARE VS AI.  So... ladder ranked 1 can be the guy who plays the most unintentional comp stomps.  We all acknowledge that the computer is a joke.  Giving experience for ladder ranking to anyone that plays pantheon vs AI is rediculous.  Knowing this now, I'm actually very disappointed that a ranking reset took place... why?  Because all i have to do is play pantheon over and over and if I'm lucky enough to get a comp stomp out of it, I'll easily move up in ranking.  If anyone can be ladder ranked number 1 based on the amount of times they have beaten computers, STATS ARE CRAP and we should not have had a reset. 

Can we PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make it so pantheon games against AI are NOT worth experience (eg NA)?  Can we make yet another reset to rankings to get it right?  

And to be specific, here are some examples from that last 20 games that Prussian-Havoc has played in pantheon against AI.

http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/984346/player/78104/
http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/984307/player/78104/
http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/984249/player/78104/
http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/984213/player/78104/
http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/984071/player/78104/
http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/984000/player/78104/
http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/983705/player/78104/
http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/983468/player/78104/
http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/983468/player/78104/
http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/983134/player/78104/
http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/981721/player/78104/

Out of the last 20 games, Prussian-Havoc played 1 game in pantheon in 2v2 where 4 human players fought against each other and won.  He lost 1 2v2 with 4 humans present.  He won a game where it was 3 humans v 1 human with 2 ai.  All of the remaining games were him + humans vs ai.  Out of those 20 games, 12 games counted as a win, 1 as a loss with the remaining games as NA.  If games against the AI would not have been counted (and based on 15 EXP per game as described above), he'd have a total of 0 EXP gained for those 20 games.  Adjusting Pantheon so there are no vs AI games would solve this or not ranking any vs AI games (as is already done in custom). 

I want to be crystal clear that I'm not trying, in any way, to call out Prussian-Havoc.  He hasn't done anything wrong.  I just feel the system is flawed and needs addressed for those of us that care about competative play. 

 

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September 26, 2009 11:49:17 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting GunslingerBara,
We unfortunately cannot easily "ignore" the people with a base 1000 experience.  The problem is that those people still have their Win/Loss/Games Played records, so there's no easy way for us to tell if those numbers are before or after the experience reset.

ok, i understand you can't ignore them based having 1000xp (even on probabilities that noone would have exactly 1000) it's a nasty hack.

but you certainly can tell how many games a person has played since any given date.

also i thought the idea of epochs was to solve issue like this. i.e. a major balance change happens and we start a new epoch.

we should be able to access each epoch also maybe selecting several epochs (say 1,5,12, 14)get an wider view of who is top. i suggest being able to chose epochs as we might well agree that some don't count for some reason or other (stats repoting/balance/etc)

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September 27, 2009 10:16:32 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Bump - see my post 2 above.  Will follow up.  This is a huge problem. 

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September 27, 2009 11:22:46 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

In regards to Pacov.

The Panth and the way it is structured is why i tell people not to pay any attention to a win/loss %. I play alot of panth as well as custom, but my stats look better than what they really are due to the amount of panth stomps in my list.

Worse thing is, the panth AI stomp is exploitable. Folks can certainly better their chances to play against AI by simply watching opengames.asp and see how many players are in the Panth queue for light or dark and hit fight accordingly.

Panth AI games should be excluded, no doubt, but we need a solution irregardless.

I mentioned this in another thread but will outline it again here.

Allow the panth to switch you from light to dark or vis versa. Lets you log in and click fight as dark, and there are 5 dark and 1 light player in the queue.

Let the panth wait it's set time for other players to join and if they don't instead of starting up a 3 v 1 with 2 AI, as would happen, give a choice to two dark players to switch to light and choose another character, thus allowing a 3 v 3 human game to be played.

The panth as it is now, if you watch, is a popularity contest. Many folk wait a little while at the start of a new tourny to see which side is winning then fight under that side. With the panth switching folks as needed it would balance out all games, eliminate AI and the side that won would do so with skill, not because they happen to be the flavor of the epoch.

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September 28, 2009 6:23:01 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Well if the ladder is already being reset, isn't resetting win/loss also reasonable?  It's kind of a useless stat now...

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September 28, 2009 7:12:17 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

they dont wanna reset win / loss i imagine because they are implementing an option where u can see someones win % in the lobby, and reset means unreliable figures.

+1 to gaining 0 exp vs ai pantheon opponents, pretty lame way of climbing the ladder.

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September 30, 2009 6:19:28 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

[quote who="[ShakeNBake]" reply="36" id="2388558"]they dont wanna reset win / loss i imagine because they are implementing an option where u can see someones win % in the lobby, and reset means unreliable figures.

+1 to gaining 0 exp vs ai pantheon opponents, pretty lame way of climbing the ladder.[/quote]

A reset would mean unreliable figures..... for a few weeks until people start building stats again. Seeing as how you can pick / choose your allies and enemy team you can go 100000000000-0 as long as you don't disconnect or get invalid gamestate hacked. This means that the current stats are meaningless. I think a reset to all games / experience is great. and this is coming from someone with around 300 games played and 84% win ratio. Just keep the favor points the same and it should work out great over time.

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October 2, 2009 9:35:39 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting pacov,
I'm curious about this... Prussian-Havoc seems to play almost exclusively pantheon games.  He plays more games on a daily basis than me.  The ranking system currently has him at number 1.  Prussian has almost 600 more favor points than me.  Since the reset, he's played exactly 40 more games than me.  On average, he must get 15 EXP per game.  I guess this makes sense.

Here's the biggest problem with ranking and where it is absolutely completely flawed after the fix:  Using Prussian-havoc as an example - MOST OF THE PANTHEON GAMES HE'S PLAYED IN ARE VS AI... 

Just check my game list from yesterday... i took your advice and completely revised my gaming style, no more dropped human v human games at the start up screen and i have kicked butt to the tune of more than 200 exp points in the Top Player catagory in a 24-hour period... you have taught me to trust my skills in Panth... even if i still get my butt kicked in Custom, Nielo has offered to add me to his premade on occassion so that should change shortly too... anyhow, thx... (but currently i choose to fight in Panth where premades have less of a chance to unbalance the game...)

it is indeed fixed... thx, no one has had more stress over all this than me, now i can concentrate on pure gaming... the best kind!

...on a completely differrent note, my long-expected but not-much-embraced PCS move is taking place beginning today and for the next two weeks... it will be very limited hotel connectivity for me... "very-unhappy-face"...

... so while I will still roam the forums (running a netbook alongside your desktop is sooo cool), my serious 5+ game gaming per day opportunities will be non-existant... military leave only lasts for so long but a month off has been fun... even more fun now that you, pavoc and stacked have helped me integrate into this community... i may not have started off how i would have liked, but if yesterday is any indication (on my games list and the fact that i am still the top ranked player if not in Pantheon, at least in the world)... then it will be a fun ride over the next few months... thx

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