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The personal cost of Health Care - An international comparison

By on August 20, 2009 9:55:05 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Germany:

Population: 82,046,000
GDP (nominal): $3,667 billion
GDP per capita: $44,660 (source)

Average income: ~ €2500 (source, alt source)

Deductions for single household with €2500 gross monthly income:

Tax deductables:

Income Tax: €405.00
Church Tax: €36.45 (you can opt out if you want, though)
Solidarity Surcharge: €22.27 (this was introduced to pay for the german reunification)

Social Security deductables:

Health Care: €185.00
LTCI: €27.50
Pension Insurance: €243.75
Unemployment Insurance: €81.25

Income after deductibles: €1.498,78

What can you get for that money in this country?

  • 1.498 Songs from the iTunes shop.
  • 37 full price games (~€40)
  • 5 months worth of rent for a 50 sqm flat (not counting power, water etc.)
  • 12 monthly fees for the most expensive iPhone mobile contract
  • 150 kg of prime beef
  • 1,200 liter of high quality beer - twice as much if you pick a cheaper label.

Monthly cost of (public) health care: €185 = $264

Note that the dollar rapidly fluctuates in worth. In January 2006 €185 were worth $222. The same amount in March 2008 was worth $296.


USA:

Population: 307,191,000
GDP (nominal): $14,264 billion
GDP per capita: $46,859 (source)

Average income: ?

 


Cuba:

Population: 11,451,652
GDP (nominal): $55 billion
GDP per capita: $9,500 (source)

Average income: ? (some earn around 15$ per month i heard)


If someone can provide numbers for other countries (most importantly US numbers, of course) then I'll gladly put them in the original post.

Also: This is just for information, so don't start a discussion about how this system/country sucks. We can do that elsewhere.

 

+59 Karma | 51 Replies
August 23, 2009 8:24:02 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Small addition: The german health care cost can rise up to about 400€ if you earn significantly more.

Also, half of the total cost of health care fees have to be paid by the employer (i.e. €185 employee + €185 employer = €370) - and there's no legal way an employer can choose to avoid paying for his employees health care costs.

August 23, 2009 8:58:15 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

According to wikipedia, in 2005 the median (not average) annual personal income for those over the age of 18 was $25,149. For those over the age of 25, it was $32,140. 

As for taxes, they vary widely based on both income level and place of residence. For federal income tax, the tax rate increases with income. The first $7,550 is taxed at 10%, the next $23,100 is taxed at 15%, etc. all the way up to 35%. There are also a lot of tax credits and deductions that make some or all of your income non-taxable, and which ones apply vary widely from person to person. Many states also have their own income tax, and some towns and cities tax income as well. I don't know what it's like in Germany, but there's no way to look at a number for US income and say, "This is how much they would have to pay in income taxes." You would need to know where they live, and also know their taxable income for each tax in order to determine that. It's a stupid and horribly complicated system, I know.

In addition to income tax, there is also Social Security tax (12.4%, $13,243.20 maximum) and Medicare tax (2.9%). Both of those are half paid by the employer. I should point out that Medicare only covers seniors aged 65 years or older, and usually doesn't cover any of the people paying for it.

The federal government also collects unemployment tax of 1.2% on the first $7,000 of income. Some states collect additional unemployment tax as well. My state charges just over 4% on the first $8,500 for new businesses, and the rate changes depending on the ratio of money paid in to the system versus money taken out by business' ex-employees.

My state also mandates that all non-state employees have disability insurance, and the cost gets taken out of your paycheck. I don't know the rate off-hand but it's not large.

So... At the median income of $32,140, assuming it's all taxable (which it won't be), and assuming they live in Florida or some other place with no state or local income tax, you get:

Income: $32,140.00 ($2,678.33/mo)

Federal Income Tax: $4592.50

State Income Tax: (varies by state, some don't tax income)

Social Security (FICA): 1,992.68

Medicare: $466.03

Net Income: $25,088.79 ($2,090.73/mo)

This is without any health coverage. That has to be paid for out of the remaining income, and keep in mind that average incomes and the cost of living varies widely within the US. A quick Google search shows that the cheapest you can rent a studio apartment in Manhattan is $1300, while in my area it may cost half that. Comparing income levels between two places isn't that useful if they have a large difference in the cost of living.

 

Now, I'm currently looking for health insurance, so I have some rates handy. This is for plans offered by a healthcare co-op that leverages the buying power of a large number of small businesses to negotiate lower rates (much like one of Obama's recent proposals suggested) and is located in the state of New York, which I'm told is rather more restrictive towards insurers. (i.e. It's illegal to deny coverage for pre-existing conditions, among other things.)

For a single person, rates range from $245 to $425 per month. The ones I'm looking at are priced near the middle.

For a family of three or more, it goes from $680 to $1100 per month.

I'm assuming the numbers you gave for Germany are for an individual. If so, that means German public health care costs about the same as the cheapest private plan available to me in the US. (which gives only basic health coverage plus generic-only prescription drug coverage.)

August 24, 2009 3:57:54 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Germany, 2006.  Hilarious, really.  The doctors went on strike in 2006, anyone remember that?  Oh right, 15,000 doctors on strike didn't rate the big three's news...  They also had a bunch of hospitals facing bankruptcy, like a third of them.

 

Find a place that actually pays for health care, and get facts on them.  Picking the fastest downward spiral in the western world isn't good for a comparison.

August 24, 2009 9:23:30 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

@psychoak

Thank you for trying to derail this thread. Your opinion is important to me. Please create a new thread with the topic you wish to talk about and invite me to it.

@Jalicos

Thank you for your numbers. I admit I don't have an idea on how large  income/tax/insurance varies between different states but it's interesting to see any numbers from a foreign country.

I didn't mention apartment rent because they vary too much to be comparable. And I imagine that a perceived decent apartment size is quite different when comparing countries like Germany, USA and Japan.

But judging from your number, your personal health care costs correlate with the national health care costs in relation to other industrialized countries - about twice as high. Expensive, but at least it seems affordable for the "average" american.

One more thing: In case a german loses his job, social security comes in and pays for the public health insurance fees (amongst other things). I think it's the same in france and britain, but I have no first hand information about that.

 

August 24, 2009 9:37:55 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting psychoak,
Germany, 2006.  Hilarious, really.  The doctors went on strike in 2006, anyone remember that?  Oh right, 15,000 doctors on strike didn't rate the big three's news...  They also had a bunch of hospitals facing bankruptcy, like a third of them.

 

Find a place that actually pays for health care, and get facts on them.  Picking the fastest downward spiral in the western world isn't good for a comparison.

 

He was born April 2nd -- one day too late.

I'm just guessing, but your real initials are a.k.?

August 24, 2009 9:50:22 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Just a note.......Wikipedia, while useful is by no means official or verified. I would look for better sources.

August 24, 2009 10:22:58 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

This is just for information, so don't start a discussion about how this system/country sucks. We can do that elsewhere.

 

We don't need to - we already know it.

August 24, 2009 10:44:45 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Australia

Population 21,885,016

GDP 1,010 Billion

Per capita 47,400

Average Income A$4906 per month

Tax deductibles 

Income Tax A$960

Medicare Levy A$74 (1.5%, If your yearly income is <21,000 you don't pay)

Surcharge A$49 , An additional levy of 1% is imposed on high income earners without private health insurance

Income A$3823 or US$3058 est (around the 80 cents mark at the moment)

The Australian Government spends around 8.5% of GDP on health.

 

 

 

August 24, 2009 10:49:33 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

They spend very little on health care in the Sudan. Perhaps we should emulate them...

August 24, 2009 12:14:17 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

CNN has an ongoing series on specific details in the evening news lately (probably devised from this)... stay tuned, the propaganda machines are on the loose.

You could even pull exact & categorized figures from this interactive data search engine by WHO.

August 24, 2009 12:44:18 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
They spend very little on health care in the Sudan. Perhaps we should emulate them...
Whatever dude, Cambodia is where it's at.

August 24, 2009 12:50:47 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

They spend very little on health care in the Sudan. Perhaps we should emulate them...

Sudan? I thought that's why the US invaded Iraq, to emulate their health care system.

You have to admit Saddam's regime worked. They systematically eliminated all their sick people - health care issue solved!

August 24, 2009 3:08:00 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

They spend very little on health care in the Sudan. Perhaps we should emulate them...

I hear, though, that if the UN Development Programme has it's way, they'll end up paying a lot more. Who says global socialism is dead?

August 24, 2009 5:14:02 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

I would have recommended Cuba, to be honest. They have the highest life expectancy to healthcare spending ratio of any nation.

August 24, 2009 5:30:53 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

You should also do Canada's

August 25, 2009 12:35:11 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Fucking post eater...  This forum hates my ISP.  We have much in common.

 

For the second fucking time...

 

I'm just guessing, but your real initials are a.k.?

 

Negative, I'm an Alaskan.

 

Thank you for trying to derail this thread. Your opinion is important to me. Please create a new thread with the topic you wish to talk about and invite me to it.

 

Significantly shorter recap of what I posted last time.  To derail your thread, you'd have to post relevant information.  The cost of health care in Germany is not $264, it's a whole bunch of dead people.  Germany has lower cancer survival rates now than they did in the mid 90's.  It's fucking pathetic.  If you break your toe, no problem.  If you get pancreatic cancer, go home and die.

 

I already made it slightly more polite, the original version was probably better, I'm pissed off at the number of posts I keep losing.  Death to Hughesnet, by Ruru preferably.

August 26, 2009 11:07:03 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Fuzzy Logic,

You have to admit Saddam's regime worked. They systematically eliminated all their sick people - health care issue solved!

There are no sick people in Baghdad!

August 26, 2009 11:30:34 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Quoting Mooster,
You should also do Canada's

Now it stands at ZERO$ net cost for me. Unemployed, until i'm not.

But, (and, this is very important) i've invested plenty over the many years when i worked into two specific  and somehow differently managed "systems"; the Confederate and the Provincial (Québec, btw).

All control of expenses & revenues are handled through state policies & decisions.

In people WE trust.

August 26, 2009 11:32:16 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Gee from your constantly enlightened posts we would never have guessed you were from the state that gave us Sarah Palin's great intellect.

August 26, 2009 11:38:02 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting psychoak,

Negative, I'm an Alaskan.

...

The cost of health care in Germany is not $264, it's a whole bunch of dead people. 

He can see dead germans from his house!

.

.

.

sorry, couldn't resist.

August 26, 2009 12:05:37 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Interesting information, but not by itself a reason for the US to do (or not do) anything.

August 26, 2009 12:17:40 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
They spend very little on health care in the Sudan. Perhaps we should emulate them...

 

Indeed, it is the health of people which should be considered. Ignoring health expectancy, which doesn't take inro account of certain factors, here is an independent research organisation analysis: http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Content/Publications/In-the-Literature/2008/Jan/Measuring-the-Health-of-Nations--Updating-an-Earlier-Analysis.aspx .

The main jist of it, is that the organisation commisioned research for "compared international rates of "amenable mortality"—that is, deaths from certain causes before age 75 that are potentially preventable with timely and effective health care. "

Here, USA is last among 19th advanced countries. For comparison with the British health System, which seems rather to be in the news recently, it is rated 16th. Also for comparison is that the monthly cost of health care per person in Britain per person is £120.77 or $196 at current exchange rates. (From hm-treasury.gov.uk.)

Phychoak
you'd have to post relevant information.  The cost of health care in Germany is not $264, it's a whole bunch of dead people.  Germany has lower cancer survival rates now than they did in the mid 90's.  It's fucking pathetic.  If you break your toe, no problem.  If you get pancreatic cancer, go home and die.

Seeing from the above report, Germany actually has 18% less deaths than USA from conditions amenable to health care such as treatable cancer, diabetes and cardiocascular disease. Turning your argument round, the cost of health care in USA is a whole bunch of dead people.

September 3, 2009 11:33:27 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

wow. very interesting and helpful information!

 

September 12, 2009 5:10:15 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

If people would start thinking before they make up their minds, it would go a long way in actually grasping what is read.

 

Seeing from the above report, Germany actually has 18% less deaths than USA from conditions amenable to health care such as treatable cancer, diabetes and cardiocascular disease. Turning your argument round, the cost of health care in USA is a whole bunch of dead people.

 

The numbers of relevance are the survival rates among those amenable conditions.

 

The number of people dying from heart disease in this country compared to Germany is irrelevant.  Germans aren't fat, sedintary slobs.  We are number one in nearly every category.  We're heaviest, most sedintary, have the highest refined sugar intake, and the most chain smokers.  That more people die from these lifestyle choices is a given.

 

Gee from your constantly enlightened posts we would never have guessed you were from the state that gave us Sarah Palin's great intellect.

 

She's a valley girl, they have a stereotype for being fluff brained idiots.  Mentioning her intellect is rather unfair of you though.  The current idiot in chief can't talk his way out of a paper bag if the teleprompter goes off.  Brains and politicians rarely coincide.

September 12, 2009 6:08:31 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

The personal cost of Health Care

does health care actually fix anything?

No not at all. it will not make humans healthier in the future if we are stuck in the same patterns as we are today.

what is a better solution which costs less and benefits future generations?

Preventative measures, like educating people through schools and advertising campaigns, to make good lifestyle choices.

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