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Health care reform: The motives behind the opposing parties

By on August 17, 2009 1:42:35 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

While some conservatives claim that Obama wants to kill your granny I hesitate to accept that as Obamas sole reason for pushing the health care reform.

From the private insurers point of view it makes perfect sense to oppose the reform ... if they didn't, they'd face an immense decline in profits if either the government option provides better care or if regulations bar insurers from avoiding costs by their current methods.

But it's a bit too simplicistic to merely claim that one party acts out of altruism (or a loathing of old ladies) and the other out of greed.

So, what do you think are the driving motives in this dispute ?

(Note that I don't ask you what you think is the better solution.)

 

Pro (Motives of the health care reform advocates):

  • The Believe that health care is a right, not a privilege (file under altruism).
  • Desire for more government control.
  • An excuse to raise taxes (no one wants to pay more taxes without a good reason).
  • Desperation (they can't get private insurance and hope for the public option).

Con (Motives of the health care reform opponents):

  • Greed / seeking profits (Insurance companies will lose money if forced to provide care to sick)
  • Selfishness ("Why should I pay for your surgery?").
  • Government shouldn't do health care because they are incompetent ().
  • Poor people should die sooner than later.
  • It is not clear how the reform can be financed.
  • A deal with drug companies prohibiting the government to negotiate drug prices can't lower costs.

 

Two key issues that make the health care reform necessary in the eyes of the proponents are quailty and cost.

Quality has been discussed to death and information (and misinformation) is freely available.

Cost is harder to estimate - one simply can't understand what estimated costs of trillions of dollars over decades means for your paycheck. So I started a different thread where I want to compare the personal average cost of health care in different countries.

The personal Cost of Health Care - An international comparison

For example: German average gross income is about €2,500. After deductions (including health insurance) a single person without kids gets to keep about €1,500.

And what can germans do with that money in germany? Why, buy beer, of course. €1,500 get you 1,200 litre of high quality Pilsener beer - twice as much if you don't care about quality and go for the cheap labels.

Health care costs: €185 per month (currently $264)

 

Cheers!

+59 Karma | 549 Replies
September 9, 2009 9:31:50 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Is anyone considering a public healthcare system funded by those who want it? Why not?

 

September 12, 2009 4:44:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

A healthcare system funded by those who want it would be something other than a government run program, thus not public.

 

Government uses tax dollars, taxes are compulsory.  If you want to set something up yourself, it's a private healthcare system funded by those who want it.  Like the numerous coops and mutuals the country already has.

 

If uncle would fuck off and leave us alone, it wouldn't take an act of God to get one started either.  The requirements are utterly ridiculous.

September 12, 2009 7:58:15 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Making it so complicated that 'acts of God' are the only way to get anything done is the name of the political game.

September 12, 2009 11:08:52 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Like the numerous coops and mutuals the country already has.

Yep, make it even more complex than it already is and scratch the United ideals while you're at it. Competition is the trick of the loop; quality ratings multiplied by the amount of differently managed & provided solutions. No coherent norms, chaotic policies, variable assets, high & low ball figures of investment, evaluation of local needs, etc.

Sure, make it sooooo impossible to reach that instead of 10+ Insurance corporations you'll soon have 2000+ profit mongers smelling the opportunities... all of which, with offices in every major cities.

But that wouldn't stop there either, right? Cuz, 10,000+ more rural groups would want the same kind of services. All of which -- expenses. To all. At once.

Unity. As in, cross the state lines of Texas & Louisiana (example) and be in another country within countries. Go in Chicago, but not Detroit. Fly to Honolulu, but not Anchorage. Drive to Baltimore, but not DC.

Operation anarchy, millions roaming around trying to find one of the many hospitals privately owned, staffed, supplied by yet another newly created pharmaceutical pipeline. Moving, pack the furnitures, sell the house -- we're goin' in Florida since THEY have 2500+ clinics overthere instead of 25- in Utah. If we're lucky we may even find a new job that someone else will lose.

Yep, health care_S to the freemarket ways. So wisely hidden in efficiency illusions, that everyone's cash is wasted even more.

Watch your premiums skyrocket through the plans. Mutually available, cooperative enough to create organised hysteria.

September 12, 2009 11:41:02 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Please remember to try thinking in english when writing in english.

 

Uncle set up the horribly inefficient profit mongers you keep bitching about.  I'm guessing you just don't know what mutuals and coops are, but since you weren't thinking in english I have no idea what half of that post is actually supposed to say and am too tired to try guessing.  Have fun with whatever that rant was.

September 13, 2009 2:59:50 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Copout.

September 13, 2009 3:28:20 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Zyxpsilon,
Copout.

No offense, but it really is difficult to decipher your rants. I think he has a right to throw his hands up at that.

September 13, 2009 5:11:21 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I would rather see public health care as the collectives resposibility to care for its own.

Those who say that if you dont have the money youre not trying hard enough well please tell that to the father of three with 2 jobs and a sick wife who has to use all his money to get the right medical treatment for his wife and get the money for necessities (like food). Or even worse the same man who just lost one of his jobs. I am quite sure there are some of these guys out there.

 

Of course you can say that he is stupid because he doesnt get a job that pays better..

September 13, 2009 5:45:22 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Question: Is health care as outlined by the governement constitutional?

Definition of constitutional is the constitution grants the federal government the power to do it.

 

Please site ammendment or text with an explanation of how that makes it constitutional.   

September 13, 2009 5:52:55 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Quoting Melchiz,

Quoting Zyxpsilon, reply 531Copout.

No offense, but it really is difficult to decipher your rants. I think he has a right to throw his hands up at that.

So tough in fact that if were to insist i wasn't ranting (at all), even proper grammar or superbly constructed phrasing wouldn't even change the meaning detectable. After all, the english language is ONLY understandable by those educated enough to mock around anyone who isn't using similar rethorics or complex ramblings factually insulting whatever happens to be contradictory.

Pheeeewwww, anything above reads novel or forum discussion worthy?

Or something to demean - again?

A right of silence or a right to observe - quietly?

Any typos in this reply?

A proper adjective inserted somewhere, an intelligent opinion, a hyperbolic metaphor poetic enough to stir chaos in all of your mindsets?

Why should i explain myself all over twice & differently to nitpickers of improperly devised wordings?

Fine, you don't want a public option for health care managed by government (after all you don't live in a country where justice for all prevails over privately owned operations & surgical procedures to save lives) ... but, it's quite ooookay for some to depend on coops & mutual alternatives. See the obvious contradiction? Understood my point? There, better?

Wrong or right, i said what needed to be said. Like it or not. respect that. Or skip away from my perspective on such issues and be my guest... cuz if you read my replies more than once you may yet again comprehend the reasoning more than the manner in which i choose to express it.

I could translate the whole response straight to French. Want it? Or would it become another way for someone to yell around - he's ranting?

Really, gimme some slack. I don't use slang or vocabulary gained since childhood.

 

September 13, 2009 6:08:19 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Of course you can say that he is stupid because he doesnt get a job that pays better..

Salaries, what is the current cost of living anywhere in the states? Variable? Adaptative? Calculated by inflation? Tagged on items in commercial outlets? Unaffordable? Minimal costs?

Welcome to the assembly lines, next unemployed please.

Your economy is collapsing under the weight of greedy corporations who would pay anyone working as less as possible if that (alone) could protect investors & stockholders capital gains.

Now, who's stupid? The system or the individual?

September 14, 2009 3:56:33 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Zyxpsilon, I understood what you were saying. How hard can it be? 

Of course you can say that he is stupid because he doesnt get a job that pays better..

Only a fool would believe that they or anyone else is in complete control of their circumstances.

September 14, 2009 3:59:19 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting JuleTron,

Only a fool would believe that they or anyone else is in complete control of their circumstances.

And only a fool would leave his circumstances to anything but his own ability.

September 14, 2009 5:20:57 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Zyx, I don't speak french(at least I'm assuming it's french).  I don't read french.  I don't write french.  I sure as hell don't think in french

 

When you're thinking in french, I have to deconstruct your sentences and put them back together the way they're supposed to be in english.  It's the structure, not the words.  It's as hard to read as the typical automatic translation.

 

The only thing I can get out of that post is that you're under the impression health care doesn't exist most places without an all encompassing, simplified system.  Reality is that attempts to simplify complex systems don't work and are themselves the cause of such problems.

 

If you want insurance companies to be personally accountable to the people they cover, it's counter-productive to encourage business to buy the insurance.  If you want costs to go down, it's counter-productive to encourage those businesses to provide pre-paid medical instead of catastrophic coverage.  If you want people to be able to keep their insurance when they get sick, it's counter-productive to have insurance come through your place of employment.  If you want more doctors in low income areas, it's counter-productive to pay them less than the going rate through medicare.

 

These are all common sense government fuckups.  They're not even bright enough to realize the current mistakes after the fact, wanting them to take over more of it is suicidal.  Universal health care already exists in this country, it has for decades, we just don't have universal insurance.  If they had a brain between them in congress, they could take a massive chunk out of the costs any time they wanted to.  It's really simple, repeal the legislation they put through that redirected all of the uninsured poor people to the emergency rooms instead of the vastly cheaper, and often even profitable clinics that they used to be showing up at before congress shut them all down to save money.(GW, this last one in particular is one of those iron clad examples proving that politicians are generally idiots. )

 

Since you're calling my post a copout, perhaps you could actually argue something, maybe even post facts in your next one!  It would be a nice change of pace from the nonsensical nonsense posts you've been making.  If you're really feeling brave, maybe you could take five minutes of your time to educate yourself on the subject so you actually know what you're talking about when you trash the free market for the results of the government established entities and regulations we hamstrung it with in the 90's.  The free market has dick to do with health insurance, it's been dead in that sector for 20 years now.

September 14, 2009 6:51:30 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

And only a fool would leave his circumstances to anything but his own ability.

So you believe that you can prevent someone else from drink driving and crashing into and injuring you?

We have a measure of control over our circumstances, but we DO NOT have absolute control. I'd like to see that statement of yours repeated to one of the starving kids in Africa, a German Jew during the 1930s or a black African under Aparthied.

 

 

 

 

 

September 14, 2009 9:42:21 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting JuleTron,

And only a fool would leave his circumstances to anything but his own ability.
So you believe that you can prevent someone else from drink driving and crashing into and injuring you?

 

Thats a pretty good example. Picture this. You are in a car crash and get a whiplash injury (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiplash_%28medicine%29 yes, wikipedia know well enough what a whiplash injury is).

The result is a fracture in the neck region which leads to headache and neuropathic pain while moving. So your insurance may be willing to pay for the costs.

The only problem is that often the fracture heals but the pain doesnt go away. You will need to continuously go through therapy to be able to function and you may still not be able to work full time anymore (not at all uncommon).

Now you tell the insurance company that you are not fine yet and need more medical care and especially, money for it. They on the other hand say: "take a look at the x-rays and the MRIs, youre fine". You cant say anything more because altgough you know you are not fine, all the tests indicate that there is nothing wrong with you..

Now you say well i had such a good job that my money will do just fine. Sorry to dissappoint but it isnt that cheap..

Then if you say something like Lugh (i think it was Lugh): i would have died but its okay, if i cant take care of myself then i deserve to die. Well i cant say anything if you really think that way.. But if you have children what then?

Just think about this for a while. Even in Finland where you get everything almost for free if you otherwise cant afford it this scenario is totally possible. Heck, i saw a man who had to sell his house to be able to afford his medical care. When that money is gone what then?

September 14, 2009 12:17:28 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

If you're really feeling brave, maybe you could take five minutes of your time to educate yourself on the subject so you actually know what you're talking about when you trash the free market for the results of...

Well, you see that's *EXACTLY* what i "hate" about you; uselessly provocative & judging anyone for your own personal fun (i'm guessing).  It's the attitude not the economy, buddy. It's the tolerance not the superiority complex, forum user. It's the respect not the Ego.

The free market IS responsible for the rising costs of health care for an extremely vast majority of even employed Americans -- not the government. Even attempts at reform can't change the facts & the current situation. Now, if US citizens are too stubborn to admit they can't be fiscally aware of their bad spending habits, nobody smart enough could prove it to them. Control, liberty, individualism -- go ahead and try finding yourselves a f**en desert island and plug your toys in free electrical outlets while slowly starving to death from permanent lack of necessary supplies. Don't brake a foot on slippery rock piles though, cuz it won't cure if infection spreads. Surviving skills, duh; you watch to much TeeVee, plugged.

Society is a device that serves all without exception.

Properly devised financial intervention against abusive corporations **MIGHT** be a solution. As of today.

Strict non-profit principles for medical policies in general (be it publicly, partially, privately managed or not, btw), another.

Less luxury, one more.

IMHO.

 

 

September 14, 2009 12:38:11 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting JuleTron,

So you believe that you can prevent someone else from drink driving and crashing into and injuring you?

We have a measure of control over our circumstances, but we DO NOT have absolute control. I'd like to see that statement of yours repeated to one of the starving kids in Africa, a German Jew during the 1930s or a black African under Aparthied. 

I never suggested such things.

I did not say that we can control the situation under which we are born, or chance events that may complicate our lives. I did say, however, that it would be foolish to leave our circumstances to external forces because we feel powerless against them, a position that you appear to support. If you deny the individual the ability to make his own destiny, you deny humanity its greatest asset: freedom of being.

Also, we may be unable to prevent certain events, but we can reduce the chances under which they can occur. For example, defensive driving can save a driver from a drunk who runs a red light.

September 14, 2009 2:04:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting porternielsen,
Question: Is health care as outlined by the governement constitutional?

Definition of constitutional is the constitution grants the federal government the power to do it.

Please site ammendment or text with an explanation of how that makes it constitutional.   

The Constitution was deliberately written with truck-sized holes in it because most of the framers were smart enough to understand that they had no idea how the nation would look when it had grown to occupy most the continent with an unimaginably large population. In particular, the commerce clause has been a mighty blunt instrument in the hands of both corpratists and populists, yielding a panoply of policies that have done everything from protecting sweatshop and child labor in the 19th century, establishing national markets for 'trustworthy food and drugs' at the turn of the last century, to basically eliminating child labor during the Great Depression.

The deliberate 'trickiness' of it all is plain in the Preamble, which asserts, among other things, that the national government is intended to "...promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty." An absolutist welfare state would be unduly authoritarian, but absolute liberty is a synonym for anarchy, and anarchy won't work until the species has evolved enough to stop forming gangs who use violence to gain power over others.

September 14, 2009 3:17:17 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

The commerce clause is a myth, the original, and applicable definition is to make regular.  There is nothing necessary or proper in the morass of bullshit we have clogging up interstate trade these days, it's the opposite of regular.  You can make up truck sized holes by pretending it says something else, but the only truck sized holes they left in it were the lack of term limits and a set number of judges on the SCOTUS.

 

Zyx, you can call me names all you want, but you're still willfully wrong.

 

You may know plenty about health care, but you know dick about the regulatory history of health care in the US.  Most of the insurance companies that exist today were directly created by Uncle.  The way the insurance companies operate with regards to cost controls are due to the structures Uncle used when creating them.  They were an attempt to control costs by Uncle.  There are reprehensible barriers to entry on new competitors.  There is no free market.

 

Earlier in the century, Blue Cross was created by a cabal of hospitals in combination with state legislation enacted to exempt them from the rules other insurance companies had to follow.  The stated purpose was to decrease competition between hospitals.  Score one for the government supported monopolist mindset.

 

Blue Cross then saw too much competition after proving the existence of the market, private insurance companies jumped in.  The hospitals were still protected from having to compete against each other, so everyone made a killing as the free market had been stripped from it.  Instead of what you're willing to pay versus what the hospital is willing to accept, it's what you can afford to pay versus what the hospital is willing to accept.

 

Then the sixties come along, Medicare and Medicaid are passed.  Oh look, more anti-competitive insurance systems that discourage competition by providing set prices!  I hate the sixties.  When someone else is paying your bills, you don't really give a fuck how much they cost, now do you?  Health care costs doubled in just a few years time, they then doubled again in a few more years time.

 

In the seventies, another decade I hate, Uncle brought about the dreaded HMO.  Oddly enough, a dreaded organization that nearly everyone liked by the time they killed their own monster to protect us.  The media is wonderfully dishonest.  The HMO system was created specifically to ration care, Medicare and Medicaid costs were increasing too fast, so they were attempting to shortcut the industry by reducing services.  These entities were established and run with the goal of denying services whenever possible.  Of course, most people aren't sick, thus didn't ever notice they were screwed if they got sick.  Those that were sick railed against the HMO's instead of the Congress that created them.

 

Which brings us to the present state of things, the HMO system was demolished, leaving all of those government created insurance agencies sitting around with nothing to do besides provide the same, anti-competitive insurance systems started by Blue Cross.  Thanks to more actions by Uncle, many people get their purposefully anti-competitive insurance through their place of employment, adding another layer of separation between the cost payer and the person recieving care.  Costs, predictably, go through the roof.

 

All of the above systems were explicitly pre-paid medical, instead of actual insurance that would cover catastrophic illness.

 

Now that I've provided the rough layout of insurance history in the US, I expect you'll ignore it and continue blaming free markets for something that hasn't been a free market.  You have two choices, leave fantasy land, or stay in it.  I'll find amusement either way so it's irrelevant to me.

 

For those of you that fly off the handle every time someone says the word fascist, this is another example of it.

September 14, 2009 5:44:33 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

You have two choices, leave fantasy land, or stay in it

I'll skip away straight ahead to the third if you don't mind... history lessons or interpretations of it aren't necessarily *A* truth found within anyone's fantasy including those propagated by your Uncle, wrong or right, moderate or extreme, false or biased to fit a personal agenda such as yours or even mine.

And leave.

 

September 14, 2009 10:40:35 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Typical, dismiss without verifying anything that disagrees with you.

September 15, 2009 1:45:21 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

I say, let gov health care pass.

Then when no one can get a primary care doctor anymore and all the ER's are completely overwhelmed with petty cases, maybe someone (the right people - as in... The Powers That Be!) will get the point.

 

After all, it's not until you really hit rock bottom that you really make the right change. Either that, or you simply die.

Trouble is, once it is done it will be nearly impossible to get rid of it.

September 15, 2009 4:09:42 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I did not say that we can control the situation under which we are born, or chance events that may complicate our lives. I did say, however, that it would be foolish to leave our circumstances to external forces because we feel powerless against them, a position that you appear to support

No I do not support that view. I specifically stated that we do have a measure of control over our lives but this control is not absolute. I was talking about chance and random bad events, not about things that we can actually help. I already mentioned the fact that although we can reduce the risk of accidents, we can't prevent them from happening.

This was simply a case of misunderstanding.

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