Honestly, the best way to balance in my opinion is an official tournament. Then you can see what choices the highest level players make instead of what is just popular (though your method would work for a lot of useless items/skills).

The glaring abnormality I am thinking of is regulus, who while popular, is certainly not the most powerful demigod. 


I remember back in the days where I played wow arena, someone did a graph of rating vs. number of each class. You could see that at the lower rating most the classes were about equal, but that quickly diverged at 2000 and 2200 ratings. 

It would be interesting... holding a tournament where the winners get their Demigod nerfed.

I'd love to hear how that pans out.

As far as objective balancing goes, I certainly hope they're taking a lot more into account than simple win/loss ratios (and I assume that they are).  One number isn't going to illustrate 'what' needs to be balanced and how heavy-handed the change needs to be.

Demigod does not have serious balance issues.

I think the problem with relying on the statistics, is that they can be misleading.

There needs to be some balance (forgive the pun) on who you listen to.

There are exceptions that can be brought up for either side.

I am sure that Stardock view the stats with interest.

However, there will be cases where higher level play will show that popular choices are not necessarily the best nor do they need to be balanced.

Take SF IV for example. At lower levels Ken, Ryu and Sagat (well sagat is OP!) are the most played, however, it is not until you get to higher levels of play can you see that other characters are balanced, if not better in some cases.

The QoT problem is complicated, it is a difficult demigod to play, but can be played to great effect. That is the problem with all the lower win ratio demigods, in the right hands they are more than powerful. At lower levels, they will lose a lot because they are too difficult to play.

My opinion on UB is not necessarily that the DG is OP, but he is simply easier to play (like Ken or Ryu). Most of his skills are passive, this allows the player to use him simply worrying about how to move him around, this allows them to be more aware of their surroundings. A DG like QoT you have to be constantly monitoring your shields, your shamblers and switching forms (like playing with Chun Li, requires more awareness). Unless you employ these techniques you will fail.

In this case, the developers should listen to the high level players, making QoT more powerful may make the game more unbalanced.

However, using the stats can be a good first indicator to show that something is wrong.

Items of similar value can be compared, in general though, I think that damage related items need to be made more attractive.

Please, for the love of God, don't use statistics to balance the game.

Why? Because statistics give equal weight to all players' choices, and not all players are good enough to comment on balance (me for instance). Really, the best way to balance the game is to set up a team automatch/tourneys and see if there are specific dominant strategies on high levels of team play.

Sure, there are minor imbalances (from my understanding), but it seems pretty balanced to me. Using stats won't "objectify" the balance, it will just kill it.

Win rates aren't a good indicator of strength. Most people play rook so badly that to bring his win rate up to par with UB's he would have to become extremely overpowered.

Regulus's win rate isn't so hot, and yet a good Regulus dramatically affects the way an entire team has to play. I've played against very high ranked premades and Reg still gets killer snipes throughout the entire game. Rank 3 mines are excellent, once he gets shrapnel and mark he's quite formiddable and doesn't need buffs.

UB's win rate is crazy because he's simple. There's nothing wrong with more complex DGs losing more in general as long as when good players control them their win rates are on par.

You make a great point actually. Demigod is MOST balanced in a 5v5 setting. The ONLY reason people make balancing cries is because they don't play 5v5s. If you start balancing to make up for 2v2s 3v3s and 4v4s then balance is going to go to hell. The only tweaking any demigod needs right now is maybe Queen of Thorns. The game is well balanced in a 5v5 setting, which is where it matters. The smaller the games get the more "IMBAs OMGZ" people are going to notice because of the lack of a wide set of skills to use on your team.

3v3s are simply not as well balanced as 5v5s. In 3v3s you will run into combinations that are outright more powerful than others. In 5v5s its all about the teamwork and overall strategy rather than being able to straight overpower your opponent. They're more difficult games, but they are far more fair than a 3v3.

5v5s are the epitome of teamwork in this game. The team with better teamwork and strategy will win. Which is how it should be. This is not a game about individual skill as much as it is about a team.

Like someone already mentioned, using datamines/statistics alone to balance a game could be even more artificial than balancing it 'traditionally'.

Sure, datamining can be very helpful as a supplement, but because people use Pounce more often than Silence, does not mean that Silence needs a buff. If everyone used Snipe as an opener rather than a finisher, it would not mean it is a bad skill.

I think it's fine that the DG's have different ratios of being played, and even different win ratios, as long as their potential is the same.

This game is still relatively young. I can tell you for a fact that if the game is left completely unchanged for the next few months, the 'balance' will change, both as the metagame progresses and as people get better. The DG's with the highest skill ceilings will become better than the "easy to play well" ones, and tactics that 'everyone used because they were the best tactic' (save exploits, obviously) will have routine counters that everyone can do without even thinking about it.

Someone tried to play a 5vs5 against 5 UBs?? All spit on one of the enemy team and hes dead for sure. UB has a lot of skills like that which make more than one UB at once rly deadly for you. I mean im more afraid when i see 2 UBs at once than when i see two rooks or two sednas. They cant stun you (most rooks play towers, not slam) or slow you. Alkso they deal lesser dmg. -

But vs 2 UBs you get double spited and double foul grasped there is hardly no chance to survive. Or imagine a doubled ooze...

It also doesn't mean my own teammates weren't a critical part of that victory, some devestating snipes and clutch shields were equally critical, but because the match was so small it was far easier to attribute the outcome to its specific causes. In 5s it's much harder to do that, which creates the illusion of superior balance.

One lucky kill won't win a 3v3 for you if you constantly have the wrong DGs in the wrong lanes, fall behind on war score, don't support each other, and don't coordinate kills and focus damage.

Lemme just make up a completely hypothetical situation to prove my point, and feel free to disagree with it.

Let's say every single DG were a clone of the fire Torch bearer, except one of those clones happened to do 10% less damage than the others. In a 1v1 that DG would be at a major disadvantage. In 2v2 it would be at a significant one, in 3s it would have a moderate one, and in 5s it would be very, very minor.

In all three cases superior gameplay would still be important and in 2s and up proper teamwork would still decide the game. [quote]You cannot balance a game with all these demigods to "fairly" match with each other demigod. Its not possible.[/qoute]They have already done this, with a few exceptions. QoT generally has some issues, but every single DG has a viable 3s combo and most have viable 2s combo. I am wholly disinterested in 1v1s, but if it weren't for Sedna I would even say that most DGs face off against each other fairly well solo too.

I apologize if this turns into a double post, the first time I got a forum error message.

Thanks for the input. You all are right, it's actually quite complicated.

For me, the ideal picture would be that you see every skill the game offers in an efficient build/team.

I would really like to see a little bit more variety in my matches: more Mass Charm, more Yetis, more Boulder Rolls, more Frost Novas, more Shamblers and more Uproot. There is so much more complexity and fun in the game if all skills (and items) were utilized euqally. Which they are currently not.

My reason for writing this is simple: I play support QoT almost exclusively and would like to play fair and interesting 3vs3 matches in official ladders against equally skilled teams. Sadly, choosing QoT (or Rook) means auto-lose right now.