House Rules for Experienced Players

By Ke5trel on July 29, 2009 7:44:04 PM from

I ran into a situation the other day where the group I was playing with joined a game of premade experts and a couple on my team asked that the opponent Sedna not use the 30% High Priest bug, since we were going to play without a Sedna of our own. The other team didn't agree to this and it was their host, so everyone on my side left the lobby.

In custom games it is host's game, his rules, no worries, but it would be cool if we could reach a common ground in pub games when it comes to glitches and broken mechanics.

What I'd like to do if it's possible is put together a set of standards which exclude the easily identifiable exploits. You can put it in the title of the game or someone joining a game could ask "House Rules apply?" and if the answer is yes then he knows that his opponents won't be using the following:

Disallowed per House Rules 7/29/09

1. Drop and re-equip hp and mana buff items for the bonus

2. Sedna Healing Wind + Level 3 idol Priests/High Priests

3. Horn of Battle

4. Minions inside Enemy Citadel Exploit

The flip side is that there are some things which *might* be imba or cheezy but aren't actually broken. These things will not be excluded from House Rules because the counters are broader:

Allowed per House Rules 7/29/09

1. Duplicate DGs on the same team

2. Backdoor flaglocking on Crucible

3. Minion Blitzing

4. Item feeding

These rules are absolutely up for debate, addition, and revision, but there are a few things I'd like you to consider before this turns into a "YES! NO!! You Dummy!!" thread:

- it is possible to beat a team which is using most or all of the disallowed mechanics, but it becomes very difficult to do so if you are not at least as good as they are and playing very specific Demigods and builds. The rules are designed to open up playstyles and teambuilds, not undercut the people who know how to play. Conversely, it's important that we don't make rules about things that work as intended but need tweaks to improve balance - only those mechanics which can be widely acknowledged are broken should be excluded from play

- creating arbitrary rules of play is less desirable than having a perfect game or having the devs remove the loopholes. Hopefully most of the issues will be resolved in 1.2, but until then there are enough mature and experienced players to make something like this work. Any attempts to turn this into a l33t vs scrub conversation will be missing the point.

- No one is saying you have to play by these rules unless they are specifically referenced in the game title or by the host. But if you join a game with "HR" or "House Rules" in the title or the host calls it in lobby before the game then you have a list of things you know are allowed or not, and it doesn't all have to be spelled out every time.

- Noobs and randoms probably don't even read these forums, so this list is for those of us who know how to play and want to play others who also know how to play. I'm not going to call House Rules in a random game and get pissed when LittleNewbie29 doesn't know what that means and you shouldn't either.

KK, if you guys have objections or additions bring them in

Thanks for reading,

Kestrel

+118 Karma | 106 Replies

Rumors of Sedna's late-game demise are greatly exaggerated.

Actually I find this to be one of the few interesting item choices for Sedna. Late in the game High Priests don't have enough health to survive AoE attacks whereas I think Bishops do. Trading vulnerability for increased healing capacity is a legitimate choice that won't be correct in every situation so the severity of the bug is diminished.

I dunno, it's only a 210 HP difference, 1120 vs. 1330 and if you get any +HP from items or magnificent presence the difference is going to be diminished. I can't imagine getting rank 4 over rank 3.

Quoting SoFFacet,

reply 1

Rumors of Sedna's late-game demise are greatly exaggerated.

Yep.

I dunno, it's only a 210 HP difference, 1120 vs. 1330 and if you get any +HP from items or magnificent presence the difference is going to be diminished. I can't imagine getting rank 4 over rank 3.

Fair point, but maybe making level 3 and level 4 be different choices would make it less of a no brainer to just buy in accordance with how much money you have.

I would agree if the more broadly useful one weren't also the cheapest one and if 30% weren't just unreasonably high in the first place.

SoFFacet, are you OK with the unkillable minions inside the enemy citadel exploit then as well? And do you consider it a nerf when that functionality is taken away?

Quoting SoFFacet,

reply 14

Right now Sedna priests cost 2100 and heal 30%. Using these priests is completely legitimate. When High Priests are changed, Sedna priests will cost 2700 and heal 22%. Using those priests will also be completely legitimate. This is pretty much the definition of a nerf.

Fixing broken mechanics is not a nerf.. a NERF is when you take a funtioning ability that has a power of X like LE bite and REDUCE it in its effectiveness...

This only RESEMBLES a nerf because you don't see the logical progression of the idols the way its meant to be...it isn't its a bug fix.

Sedna High Priest BUG is of course a BUG, if you say otherwise you must be freakin retarded.

quoting post

Disallowed per House Rules 7/29/09

1. Drop and re-equip hp and mana buff items for the bonus

how you wanna control that? this can be done out of sight of opponents.

2. Sedna Healing Wind + Level 3 idol Priests/High Priests

well , because of the 400Gold saved? it is more probably that the high priests are only switched with the bishops. at least currently it is nothing else to assume how much bishiops should heal except that it probably should have been so much as the high priests currently do. so the only benefit of this is a saving of 400gold. if you force sednas to use bishops then they are limited to the third best healing idols. seems much more unfair to me then a 400 gold bonus.

edit: due to having the best pries 1 level earlier it gives her a bost early. but forcing her to use bishops makes her significant weeker then any other dg just a view levels later.

3. Horn of Battle

i've fought so many times minion builds with that i still don't see the big problem. at least not so big to justefy the crying.

4. Minions inside Enemy Citadel Exploit

agreed.

ediot: again to the sedna stuff. right now the high priests cost 2100 and bishops 2500 (NOT 2700!). and it is more probably that after the bug fix bishops will heal for 30% and high priests for 22% than that bishops stay at 22% and high priests get somewhat below 22%. at least no one esle can say something different. and inf act palying sedna with only 22% maximum priests bonus heal is damn underpowert after level 9 arround.

SoFFacet: The idea that they put this game together perfectly at the outset and that it exibits stellar balance in every corner of it is just ridiculous. Look at the state it was in on the day of release, the connectivity issues alone should show you that it was nothing like a pristine jewel. Not only that, but balancing of characters went on during beta that were nothing but trial and error, trial and error tempered by considerations, but trial and error none the less. There is no doubt in my mind that there was an effort to balance the game by the developers, and I think a very good one, but it was one that needed playtesting, and didn't get as much as it should have because of the connectivity problems...During beta the connectivity was much worse.

Kestrel: I think your suggestion is sort of a good one, sort of like a gentlemen's agreement regarding play, which I think is a good idea. I don't have anything to add the the list at the moment, but if I do, I will.

hipgnosis

But the Messiah (Sirlin) says that not exploiting every possible exploit is scrubby! Messiah can't be wrong. Say it isn't so!

Quoting Lemminkaeinen,

reply 5

SoFFacet, are you OK with the unkillable minions inside the enemy citadel exploit then as well? And do you consider it a nerf when that functionality is taken away?

Two completely different things, one destroys all gameplay, the other leaves it intact but is slightly imba.

Quoting Schobbo,

reply 7

Sedna High Priest BUG is of course a BUG, if you say otherwise you must be freakin retarded.

Bug != Exploit, which is the whole point I'm trying to make.

Quoting Lugh,

reply 6

Quoting SoFFacet, reply 14Right now Sedna priests cost 2100 and heal 30%. Using these priests is completely legitimate. When High Priests are changed, Sedna priests will cost 2700 and heal 22%. Using those priests will also be completely legitimate. This is pretty much the definition of a nerf.

Fixing broken mechanics is not a nerf.. a NERF is when you take a funtioning ability that has a power of X like LE bite and REDUCE it in its effectiveness...

This only RESEMBLES a nerf because you don't see the logical progression of the idols the way its meant to be...it isn't its a bug fix.

Obscenitor and I already agreed it would be simultaneously a nerf and a fix. Examining the properties of the best available Sedna Priests before and after a High Priest change directly leads to the conclusion that its a nerf. Examining the illogically high increase of High Priest under Wind 2 compared to other monk minions (50/50/50/230/50) directly leads to the conclusion that its a fix.

Please read the entire thread next time.

Quoting CelMare,

reply 8

Probably not. As Obscenitor was saying, every Priest in the game besides High Priests gets a 50% boost. It would make sense for them to just change High Priests to 20% and leave everything else as is. 22% is still pretty strong, so no, it won't be underpowered.

Quoting hipgnosis,

reply 9

Where did I ever say that this game is perfectly balanced? What I've been saying is that its a very bad idea to have self-appointed, self-righteous sub-committees sitting around creating social taboos regarding what is and is not fair game during custom games.

Like the "pros" you align yourself with?

Soffacet remember when I said way back in the OP that turning this into "scrub vs pro" would be missing the point? I'm not expecting you to go into tournament play and do anything less than what it takes to win.

What the four things disallowed above do, in my opinion, is allow two teams to play with flexibility.

You are saying you want to play with a 2x 200 hpps passive burst heal, fine, that means I most likely have to play with the same thing on my team or be hella better than you. It strips choices out of play, and the reality that you are used to playing with it doesn't change that..That was the point of my opening example.

Horn of Battle is broken because of how it synergizes with minion blitzes and autoprocs on *any* minions spawned after it first procs. With HoB a level 8 Erebus can take down a tower with regen 2 in about 12 seconds - without any sacrificed minions - from the other side of the battlefield. If I want to counter this, again, my team has to be very careful about what DGs we pick, how we spec, and what map we play on.

No one has to follow House Rules, ever, in any game, but at least if you see it in the title you will know what to expect, no?

I like the House Rule idea.
And i remember the game where somoene asked the host, and i know who asked

Because some bug uses are rly gay, or the game goes a way what i shouldnt u need to look what the other choose, and u choose the better combo, or we have all the time mirror games.

So hands up for Ke5trel

cheers

Problems with HoB are easily solved: no favor. It might be a rather hamfisted approach, but it would be flat out effective in preventing any cheezy tactics related to favor items.

With regards to Sedna healing wind/high priests, I think it has to be allowed. Yes yes it is a bug or exploit (I'm not going to argue semantics here), but there is the perfectly logical scenario where there are 2 generals on a team and they would stagger priest idols. In that case, the best combo would be bishops/high priests regardless of the current bug.

Also, the standard game settings should be clearly defined here. For example, conquest mode with normal settings for creeps/towers/gold/etc.

Quoting BobWI,

reply 16

Problems with HoB are easily solved: no favor. It might be a rather hamfisted approach, but it would be flat out effective in preventing any cheezy tactics related to favor items.

Also takes away one of the few strategic choices you can make in the game where there are multiple viable options. A house rule of no HoB and no minion exploiting would be better for the game.

I don't see Sedna/Priests 3 as a huge issue. They're marginally stronger than they should be, it's hardly gamebreaking. It's a case of an imba item, not anywhere near the level of putting minions inside the citadel or the auto proc properties of the horn of battle.

As for drop/re-equip that's a pretty micro-heavy move to do in a game with 0.35 seconds of built in lag. I'll take your word for it being gamebreaking and I certainly wouldn't do it.

So HR is the new tag to put on lobby games?

sedna-priests 3 are slightly stronger than they should be but not stronger than priests 4 should be. neither way the difference is never gamebreaking.

I agree with all 4 points, in fact I'm gonna start labeling my games with No Exploit Allowed. HoB just breaks the game, specially if 2 or more use it

Quoting CelMare,

reply 18

sedna-priests 3 are slightly stronger than they should be but not stronger than priests 4 should be. neither way the difference is never gamebreaking.

They're 36% stronger than priests 4 should be, and 50% stronger than priests 3 should be.

5. If Charvel1 is taking damage and YOU are causing it, you MUST stop attacking and allow him to get back to full health.

Quoting Charvel1,

reply 21

Disallowed per House Rules 7/29/09
5. If Charvel1 is taking damage and YOU are causing it, you MUST stop attacking and allow him to get back to full health.

So your not allowed to let Charvel1 regenerate? gotcha whatever you say.

Quoting Charvel1,

reply 21

Disallowed per House Rules 7/29/09

1. Drop and re-equip hp and mana buff items for the bonus

2. Sedna Healing Wind + Level 3 idol Priests/High Priests

3. Horn of Battle

4. Minions inside Enemy Citadel Exploit
5. If Charvel1 is taking damage and YOU are causing it, you MUST stop attacking and allow him to get back to full health.

What? Send 20 minions after Charvel1 and activate Horn of Battle? ok

On-topic I do like the general concept, but we'll see if anybody actually implements it.

#1 is fixed in demo, not sure about others

One thing very important you guys are not discussing.

Right now If some1 breaks the rules you can "do something" to penalize the player, e.g. the host can "end game". And when this "end game" bug is fixed? What happens if some1 "breaks" the rules? So, is this a game theory exercise (economic sense)? Whats the benefits of "following the rule" if there is no penalty to the "bad boy"?

For me, until "end game" bug is fixed when I host a game "Horn of Battle" is a no no scenario. And last night, 5x5, doubles are ok, but triples are not... not because its overpowered, just bc most ppl wont face a triple and the game can fill up faster.

Cheers

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House Rules for Experienced Players