Hidden Advantages in Demigod

By Ke5trel on July 14, 2009 11:18:44 PM from

Ke5trel

Join Date 02/2008

I'd like to see a bit more innovation in pub games where possible. It seems like most players follow this formula:

1. Capture flags early and hold them where possible
2. Kill enemy Demigods without dying
3. Hold lanes and farm grunts
4. Destroy enemy towers
5. Buy Equipment and choose skills for your DG which allow you to do all of the above better
6. Buy Priests thru Catas and lock opponent portals
7. Profit!

And this works just fine, for what it is. Most teams don't need or care to develop their strategies further than doing all of that better than the other guy. But there are ways you can change the balance of play that go beyond this and that are mostly invisible that we haven't explored as a community yet.

For example: The experience flag increases your team experience gain by 20%. What happens when you prioritize that flag (where available) and pour all of your team upgrade budget into the experience upgrades? With equally matched teams, you end up at level 13 when your opponent is at level 9, is what happens.

That doesn't count the skill points the higher-level UB has invested that his opponent doesn't have access to. It doesn't count his ability to farm kills, towers, and grunts more efficiently, at a rate which only increases his experience gain further. And it doesn't count his allies, which are similarly over-levelled compared to the equivalent opposition.

Of course, you are spending gold on xp that you could use elsewhere, but if your team has a cumulative advantage of 8-15 levels it most likely won't matter that your opponent has an extra mana helm or two. You can still apply your 7 Steps of Victory, you just have a hidden sword you can use to make that victory faster and more brutal.

Another example: edited 7/15 - I was saying something similar about currency, but as Primal Zed points out in reply 3 the numbers aren't adding up

What are some other examples? What do we think of the above example? Anyone want to run the numbers on a team with Gold III and a neutral goldmine vs a team with base gold and then Gold I and no neutrals?

How much gold/tic does each gold mine give? How many tics are in a second?

How long does it usually take to gain 1 War Rank (on average, assuming even kills/flags)

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a gold mine is 2 gold per tick per player. a tick is approximately every 2 seconds (its actually something like 1900 miliseconds, so not quite a round 2).

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I worked this out for the Exile map. That is, there are 2 gold mines at each base, and 2 gold mines to be captured in the middle. I assumed War Rank will be earned at a flat rate on both sides (3.33 minutes per WR), and that the Gold team will control the gold mine flags about 3/4 of the time. Both teams will get Currency I immediately, but Gold team will buy all subsequent Currency ranks as soon as they are avaible.

For a 3v3 match, after exactly 30 minutes of this (when War Rank 10 is achieved), Gold Team has generated 22683 gold from gold mines and Currency (with the cost of purchasing currency subtracted). The other team has generated 19965 gold from gold mines and Currency (again, the cost of currency is subtracted).

This is a difference of 2718, or 906 gold per Demigod, after 30 minutes of play.

On 4v4, gold generated is 33244 vs 27220.

This is a difference of 6024, or 1506 gold per Demigod.

edit: considering after a half hour, the difference in the gold acquired from holding the Gold Flag for 3/4 of the time is 1800 per demigod (averages 2g/tic more per demigod, so 2g/tic*30tic/min*30min=1800g), buying Currency past rank I is not worth it.

edit edit: Cuz I know it will be brought up, no, I did not subtract the cost of purchasing Currency too many times in a match. Each rank on a given team is paid for only once.

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wow Primal Zed, I didn't have access to the upgrade numbers when I wrote this - that's insane. I'm going to scratch that section of the post as an example of how not to write without checking the numbers first, but a couple more questions for when you or someone else has time -

1. When in the 30 minutes do the players get Currency 3?

2. What are the 30 minute numbers for Prison map?

Thanks for running the numbers on that, btw

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Currency I is at 6 min 40 sec (WR 3). Currency II is at 13 min 40 sec (WR 5). Currency III is at 20 min (WR 7). Again, per my calculation, it's 3 min 20 sec (200 seconds, or 100 tics of gold mines) per War Rank. War Rank in the game is gained at every 810 War Score on default settings.

On Prison (there is only 1 gold mine flag in the middle), on 3v3, Gold Team gets 18854 total gold (6284.6/Demigod) and the other gets 18688.5 total gold (6229.5). Again, this is based on the assumption Gold Team controls the middle gold mines 3/4 of the time. (This is done by giving Gold Team 3/4 of the gold generated every tic (2g/tic -> 1.5g/tic) and the other team 1/4 of the gold generated (0.5g/tic), hence the fractions.)

edit: Currency I gives 4g/tic to every Demigod. Currency II gives 6g/tic, Currency III gives 8g/tic. This is not cumulative: a new rank of Currency replaces the old rank, it is not in addition to the old rank.

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They should reduce the cost of currency 2 and 3 to be around 1800, possibly less. I understand the concept behind certain upgrades become more expensive, but currency the 2 of them are pretty useless. On a side note:

In games come to pass, I have omitted the purchasing of currency 1 at WR3, as well as my whole team. The 1800 that you use to get currency 1 can be used to get a hauberk of life. Assuming you and your opponents are doing the same and keeping up with one another, and at WR3 your opponents get currency 1, and your whole team gets hauberk / vlemish (or whatever they need for there build). What happens is an asymetry on the battle field, where the opposition has 1 weak link that your fully upgraded team can exploit. Given you are equal in all other aspects than your 3rd man being better equiped, the next team fight you are able to pull out as a victory. In my experiences only after 1 - 3 kills are obtained after WR 3 (assuming no deaths on your team) does it really become feasable to purchase currency 1. Furthermore, if your whole team is getting assists, fully upgrading through currency 1, priests, and experience 1 (each teamember purchasing a different upgrade) you will come out on top of your opponent. Especially since when you kill an opponent that has just gotten currency 1, they will not be getting 4 gold per second for 30 seconds.

This has been my experience, and many people will disagree. But whenever I get currency 1 at WR 3 I end up dying and loosing out from the bonus gold all the same. When I get items that aid my performance on the battlefield, I make my money back and in much less time.

EDIT: You also can't sell back citadel upgrades, another reason early game gear is a better choice.

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Quoting alvaro202,

reply 6

you are absolutly wrong with this:

having hauberk of live does not gives you kills, except you fight noobs that fight to the (near) death! the only advantage you gain with that is that you only probably may hold a flag somewhat longer. the opposing team will have all but one their hauberk at the same time as you. and only against one of them you have this advantage. but they all will gain at the same amount of exp, they do not need to farm the creeps at the flag.

and after 5min the one that bought money has his hauberk too. but the other two advance faster than you three due to more money.

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Its usually worth it to accept a temporary disadvantage by buying Currency 1 instead of an item. You'll be behind for a few minutes but you won't die unless you do something stupid, so the worst that will happen is you'll fall a bit behind in war rank. You'll be back in the game and with advantage once the Currency has paid for itself.

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Quoting SoFFacet,

reply 8

Its USUALLY worth it to accept a temporary disadvantage by buying currency 1 instead of an item.

Play experience states otherwise. When I first started learning DG I would agree 100%, always get currency1 at WR3. Now that I'm playing all the time, I don't believe getting currency1 1st or even right at WR3 is a strategy that should be reinforced. In a completely even game having the items across your whole team, be it vlemish or hauberk, can turn the tide in your favor more so than currency 1 can. All you have to do is get 1 - 2 kills to make your money back, and you will make your money back.

I find in games where fast currency is active, currency 1 is less important early game than in normal game settings. But every game is different, and by no means should you force currency 1 at WR 3 unless you already have an edge over the opponent (warscore, kills, levels) you will just dig yourself deeper into the hole.

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Thats why I said usually. You have to make a judgement in each situation, but what I'm saying is that more often then not the best choice is to be patient, buy currency, dont die, and win later on.

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In a 3 person team, Currency pays itself back to the team after 5 minutes. It pays itself back to the purchasing Demigod after 15 minutes.

4g/tic * 0.5 tic/sec = 2g/sec

2g/sec * 3 demigods * 300 sec (5 min) = 1800g.

edit: You're right, Retroromaniac. Don't know how I screwed that up. I'll fix it.

If this calls into question my earlier math, I can post the spreadsheet I made if you like, if someone can provide a way to post it.

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5 minutes, more likely, according to your math.

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I don't understand why, for currency 2, you don't get twice the benefit of currency I. I'm referring to at least 8g/tic, or possibly even up to 12g/tic for having both upgrades. Wouldn't that make it worth it? It has to really deliver something since it's available so relatively late in the game and for a significant cost.

It just seems like the scaling of some of these upgrades just aren't worth it to come up with viable alternative strats, less Giants.

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It just seems like the scaling of some of these upgrades just aren't worth it to come up with viable alternative strats, less Giants.

The same thing is applied to Demigod skills (except for the Enhance Attributes and Morale 'skills', probably because of the way tooltip simply reads "+XX Stat")

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Quoting Primal Zed,

reply 14

Just the way all the citadel upgrades are set up (with the exception of those that provide completely different benefits, such as new creep or Finger of God), each new rank replaces the former rank. Currency isn't cumulative for the same reason Tower upgrades, Armory, etc, aren't cumulative.

The same thing is applied to Demigod skills (except for the Enhance Attributes and Morale 'skills', probably because of the way tooltip simply reads "+XX Stat")

Yeah. I guess I meant "why" in the sense that is, why are the upgrades such a crap value for the gold? Then again, many items are borderline terrible for the gold they cost as well.

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Have to agree here; it makes no sense to get currency upgrades 2 and 3 in most cases.

Why even bother putting them into the game if it doesn't make sense to get them?

Wouldn't it be more interesting if they were at least tempting, and you would have to adapt your strat if you wanted to try to make use of them? Something where you would simply try to hold out for 3 to 5 minutes until your economic advantage really kicked in?

That would be interesting to see... it's all about balancing, so that you have several different, but equally worthwhile strategies.

Here's another point: the reinforcements makes sense to scale in cost, because they get more powerful...

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this is a joke right?

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Hidden Advantages in Demigod

Ke5trel