Rook Power & Towers

I'm not sure which aspect exactly needs reworked, but I suspect that Tower Rook will get a nerf in the future.

If Tower Rook can single-handedly keep two people at bay, not to mention three, it's a fair bet those people wouldn't do too well anyway. Armor stacking or just double-teaming him (Rook himself, not his towers) should force him back easily...unless he has adequate support, in which case you can chalk it up to good teamwork.

The towers already have a number of disadvantages--

-They auto-target. So no focused fire on DGs when creeps or minions are around, or multiple DGs.

-They're static. Regulus, Spit UB to an extent, TB -- anyone with ranged attacks -- can hit them from relative safety. And minion swarms pretty much are ranged attacks.

-They're weak. The HP doesn't go up with levels nearly as much as most abilities. But that doesn't really matter too much because...

-Setting up a tower farm takes loads of mana. Attacking Rook himself should force him away because he won't be stacking HP or armor, giving more time to take down / push back the towers because he won't be able to stay at the front setting new ones up. If he does stack HP/armor then attacking the towers becomes more viable because he won't be able to keep it up and still use his roll or slam.

-Setting up a tower farm takes a minute and twenty seconds, assuming he can do so constantly without running out of mana, and disregarding the time it takes to take a couple steps to stop whacking creeps and set one up. Hitting early or destroying the farm takes it out of action for quite some time.

Towers should be treated like minions and either crumble when rook dies or start losing HP at a rate that they're gone by the time Rook respawns(which would on average be about what, 50-100hp dmg/sec). Otherwise right now, killing Rook doesn't get you much because he can be back and replacing them before you can kill them all off, assuming its a thick farm and you even can take them out without dying yourself. If generals lose their minions when they die, so should Rook lose his towers.

If towers were to be treated like minions they'd also need to let Rook choose targets for them, and not crumble on their own when he's still alive. Which would make them more powerful, not less.

There is no reason they would have to be completely like normal minions. One does not follow from the other. The towers should die. Right now, IF a rook does get the towers up, attacking the rook doesn't matter. If you kill him, he will be back before you can remove the farm (which you need to do if it was well placed). If you can't kill him, well, obviously the farm is going to suck what with not being able to get it all down. If you can push him back, you can make head way (the key is to not let him set the damn farm up!).

The fact the towers remain when he dies is simply no good. It is contrary to everything else in the game and I think this fact alone is what makes tower rooks strong - that towers do not follow their master to the grave.

Naturally there are disadvantages to playing a tower rook - it is silly to argue otherwise. But, a build having disadvantages doesn't mean there is nothing broken about the build. Towers not dying with the rook is broken.

The only alternative I immediately think of is to change towers such that the rook has to be in range of them or else their HP starts dropping dramatically.

It seems like this exact same post pops up almost daily. Can someone explain to me why they are having so much trouble with towers? I don't think people are thinking this out. Towers are one of the few skills that a demigod casts that are negated by armor. Buy some armor and they will do 50% less damage. Every demigod can buy armor to offset a tower rook. Or just walk around them or teleport over them. There are so many counters to this build. It is not over powered. Its a rather weak build and easy to defeat.Try out some of the different items from your usual build.

Towers are an annoyance, not anywhere near the most powerful weapon. Sure it is useful in the middle of a huge battle, but you should be able to navigate around them most of the time. Or take it out from a distance.

if you can't deal with a tower rook that has no company with THREE demigods you need to play more before you whine. I am getting sick of the nerf threads that pop up. It takes months of gameplay before you can pick things out that need to be addressed. The patches, especially the nerf on warpstone, have totally killed the things people have whined about and I don't want to see the Rook loose his towers to all of the whiners.

The towers are certainly overpowered, but can be overcome. Best thing to do I guess is to try to take advantage of Rook's relative immobility, which is easier on some maps then others.

People say use AoE on them, which is stupid. What AoE, they have 1500 health at level 1. People say you can use rain of ice on them without getting in range. Haha great, rain of ice does 200 damage at level 1. Go ahead and rain of ice them 7-8 times. If you want to do circle of fire, you need to get in rage to damage the towers, and will probably take 500-800 damage while casting it. Regulus is probably the best demigods to deal with Rook's towers entirely due to his range, and mines.

All towers in this game prioririze on demigods as their main target, and flying units. Doesn't matter that you can't tell them who to attack they will almost always attack a demigod if there is one in range.

Not gonna stack armor, if you do you're neglecting other things. Doesn't matter if you get the towers damage down to 75, the damage still adds up as they attack so fast and are easily replaced.

I don't get why the hell the mana cost doesn't scale. In fact at level 4 it goes down to 200 mana for some reason?? The towers health goes up, why shouldn't the higher level towers cost more mana? This should be changed.

Their attack speed and health should be reduced by 25%.

You guys are oversimplifying the differences between minions and towers. Let's talk about that a bit more.

Minions can be summoned either instantly or passively in a very short amount of time. In the time a rook can set up two towers another DG can have a full complement of their summoned minions.
Minions can have their damage, health, armor, and attack speed improved by item, towers cannot
Minions can be healed and buffed, towers cannot
Minions are mobile, towers are stationary
Towers are immune to a few abilties which would affect minions, but are also vulnerable to ones which minions are not
Towers can be teleported to, minions cannot
Towers are generally higher damage than minions
Summoning a full complement of towers can cost thousands of mana, summoning minions is generally either free or extremely cheap. The one exception is QoT, and it's not a big surprise that she's the least popular DG

The main issue with towers is that they take a long time to set up but it gives the rook the unique ability to do stuff to prepare for combat between fights. No other DG really does that, and the amount of time a rook spends preparing is given a reward, which may be causing an imbalance.

I'm not saying that rook is fair atm, but you guys are glossing over the drawbacks he has and if you make him less able to hold an area and stand his ground against multiple DGs then you need to enable him to move and build momentum as quickly as other DGs who walk into any fight at 100% effectiveness. As a rook there's times when I see multiple DGs moving in and I feel like this guy getting smashed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLlUgilKqms

I know I need to move but I have no choice but to make a stand whereas other DGs would be able to escape. Also that lack of speed makes the rook is less able to chase escapees and move to support his partners. Really when you ask for a rook to be less capable of doing what he does well you're risking making his entire design concept stop working.

Really when you ask for a rook to be less capable of doing what he does well you're risking making his entire design concept stop working.

Great points, obsenitor. I personally don't believe the rook is OP and think its merely a matter of strategy to take him on. I have not met a rook player that 3 people could not take him out and stop his farming, let alone 2 players. If this were really an issue, I'd think a simple solution would be to increase the cooldown time for placing towers. I'm not for that as I enjoying playing with/against tower rooks and believe they are fairly balanced (eg me vs same skilled player as tower rook is not a guaranteed win for tower rook).

I am completely stunned that people would be arguing that Tower Rook is op. He is one of the easiest builds to counter if you're paying attention. First, using towers correctly is not easy, and takes a skilled player. There are few really skilled players, and even fewer that choose the rook, and even fewer that choose tower rook.

Really. He moves like he's sprinting through jell-o, his abilities are all slow, and his tower farm takes forever to setup, tying him down to one spot to be effective. How could that possible be op?

I agree with Hugh. I'm new to the game but found that playing as Rook I get pwned by any hero that gets close to me, even when they are lower level. Playing as the crossbow shooting guy, I pwn every other hero, regardless if they are higher level, and just keep running back behind my towers.

quoting post

Does anyone else think it's too powerful? I mean, when 1 rook can lock down a team of 3 people in their base I think it might need a bit of looking into/ballancing.

Whooot? one sad rook lock down 3 players on base

LTP instead of whining about nonsense problems.

Rook is the worse DG, he cant move, he cant run and he cant be alone becouse if 2 DGs jump on him is dead nm what he do.

Try to play rook and try to lock 3 players on base rolf... then u put some screenshots and start the whine again.

As it is a Tower rook only comes into play mid game.

Early game he's got low HP & tends to run back & forth between his farm & the crystal.

Late game his towers can't stand against a semi-decent DG or their minions...

I really wish they'd make his towers scale UP as the game progresses.

What would be really nice is if the chaining graphic actually represented what the towers were doing as opposed to each fighting on their own... In other words if the towers actually linked & towers that are out of range fired through the towers at the front.

Ill say what I say to most nerf threads.

Try playing a tower rook and see how you go. I did and I get owned regularly.

Maybe I suck, but im about a 50-50 player with UB.

I find myself getting harged through the towers, often by 2 or more demigods at a time.

As a rook opponent, I tend to ignore the towers areas of the map early on as they I admit they are pretty strong early on.

After you have some armor and health, charging the rook and bringing down the towers becomes a far easier proposition.

For maps like crucible, yes you can get walled into your base, but I think thats just a flaw in crucible. If the opponent feels the need to play a tower rook in crucible, then that is just pure cheese. Its a horrible map, and I refuse to play it.

Rook needs a buff. So if you nerf his towers you need to buff something else a lot.

Rook is not OP. On Crucible he's a hassle, but so is any general that can jump the gap. You all should wait for replays before you start your next OP crusade. You appear to have little idea what is clearly broken in this game vs. difficult for a newer player to counter.

Just double mana costs for towers, increase the cast time up to 2 seconds, but let the towers be there till rook dies, or they get destroyed.

JuareZz

Just double mana costs for towers, increase the cast time up to 2 seconds, but let the towers be there till rook dies, or they get destroyed.

You're kidding, right?

The tower rook can be annoying but I dont think its that big of a deal. Smart play keeps rook at bay

If you and your three teammates got stuck back in your base by a rook you guys were severely mismatched sorry to say. I have had situations like what you said arise. A rook and a regulus with mines and towers and snipe, very annoying but kudus to them, thier strategy and teamwork was better than my teams and we lost because of it. Lesson learned, either spread thier team up or take down rook before he gets cozy.

If theres a change it should be minor if anything at all. Most rooks you come across arent able to pull off a decent tower maze though.

Well technically tower rook got a small nerf cos they cant use HoL any more, so it is very mana intensive unless you take lvl 4 power of the tower at level 10.

On the up-side, I hope they nerf tower rook too, so I can rule supreme as a slam/roll rook

Late game his towers can't stand against a semi-decent DG or their minions...

Agreed. Weak/ok beginning. Very strong mid. Weak in comparison late game - at least from a tower building POV. Any nerf is foolish. If you have troubles handling a tower rook, hopefully there are strategies out there you can read up on... especially now with the HoL changes, I'm pretty sure the rook doesn't have infinite health/mana... run in, do some damage, run out as needed, and repeat. He'll drop his towers, but you should be able wear him down... especially 2on1, but even 1 on 1.

Tower rooks are decent early-mid game and weak late game. They're a hard counter for stupid players though. People who blindly go about their business without thinking about what they're facing get crushed by tower rooks. The thing bad players don't realize when they lose to a tower rook is they'd probably lose to that player regardless of what demigod he picked. They just wouldn't have the "I ran into a tower farm alone with nothing distracting towers, got owned, repeated till they had a huge advantage, then tried 2vs1ing, and couldn't win since I already gave him 6k gold and a 2-3 level advantage." People who are smart about fighting a rook though have no problems countering him.

Rook's towers are only effective en mass. Solution: do not let him get set up.
Rooks's towers are only effective when concentrating firepower. Solution: attack en mass with grunts, minions, and other DGs.
Rook's towers' firepower is diminished by armor. Solution: get some armor.

Rook certainly has some advantages in specific maps. On other maps, his speed becomes a big detriment. He is one of the few DGs that I find really map dependent.

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