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Rage Quits and v1.1 of Demigod talk

By on June 3, 2009 4:15:22 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Developer Gas Powered Games and publisher Stardock are working on version 1.1 of Demigod which we hope to be out in the next few weeks.

Next week we’ll have a more formal preview of v1.1 but one of the things we’re going to be focusing on is the issue of rage quits.

Here is how we plan to handle them:

Team Concede

A team can concede the game. If the majority of a team chooses to concede, the game ends. No harm no foul.

Rage Quits

If a person quits the game without the team concede and the game lasts more than 10 minutes longer, that person gets a rage quit. In the connection dialog, that person’s rage quitting percentage will be displayed as “Disconnect %”. Players with a high Disconnect % will likely get booted in lobbies and will be put further back in line for skirmish and pantheon games.

Early Quits

Games that last less than 3 minutes aren’t counted. If you get into a game where it’s lagging or you have an obnoxious partner or opponent or someone has a very slow sim speed, you can quit in those first few minutes, no harm, no foul.

+912 Karma | 192 Replies
June 4, 2009 6:09:46 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting InfiniteVengeance,

So you've identified the real problems and you still support this solution?
Of course I support the better solution - leaver's gold should be distributed to everyone else, you should get control of their hero and all future gold they get should be redistributed too.

They've said they can't do this currently.  And look at the game interface - it's clearly not going to work right now.  So I think the leaver hero should just be gone period, no AI.  Distribute the gold and drop the hero to give the remaining people a chance.

Of course this would be in addition to the disconnect stat they're implementing.  A one-two punch, if you would - the people who stay have a chance, the leaver gets his due.
I don't see how that's the only solution.  Things like AI tweaks and reduced gold from AI controlled players would be workable changes within the current system.  The real issue isn't that the guy left, it's that the AI sucks.  Just make the AI less tedious to play with until a better system can be implemented.

Or, you know, do whatever.  My goal here isn't to debate it, it's just to give some feedback.  I respect that you disagree with me, and I've put in my two cents, so hopefully frogboy will consider it in the long run as they continue to improve the game.

June 4, 2009 7:17:21 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Things like AI tweaks and reduced gold from AI controlled players would be workable changes within the current system.

The AI is inherently uncontrollable.  That's why it will never be the solution.

The real issue isn't that the guy left

It definitely is.  When you're outnumbered they can easily spread the field and keep more flags than you.  At least if you got the leaver's gold you'd have a chance to beat them in fights.

June 4, 2009 9:09:53 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

If the AI replacement gave less, or no gold, you'd at least get a "little" help, but as everyone knows how it is now, if someone quits, not only are you down 1 human player, your also getting a major feeder for the enemy; a double whammy.

June 4, 2009 9:30:04 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

If it's only possible for you to have "fun" when you think you are winning a game, and you think it's just fine to quit on everyone when your not having "fun", go ahead.  People you play will remember you, and thanks to Frogboy/SD, you'll soon be free to make your in-game reputation known to all, and they can decide if they want to play with you.

Anybody out there: would you rather play with someone that mispells (I have a broken finger btw, and I think I miss spelled misspell too), or rage quits. . .

June 4, 2009 9:30:39 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Exactly, right now a 2v2 becomes a 3v1 with your AI only helping the other team, and something needs to be done about this before punishing the quitter.

June 4, 2009 11:17:24 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

HOORAY FOR PUNISHING PLAYERS WHO DONT WANT TO GET CURB STOMPED! gg. The day this system affects me is the day I delete DG and stop telling my mates to buy it. Maybe I'd be better off with the Warez players on hamachi then bowing to the facist tactics mentioned here.

June 4, 2009 11:40:30 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting HateForest,
HOORAY FOR PUNISHING PLAYERS WHO DONT WANT TO GET CURB STOMPED! gg. The day this system affects me is the day I delete DG and stop telling my mates to buy it. Maybe I'd be better off with the Warez players on hamachi then bowing to the facist tactics mentioned here.

Hooray! Please go ahead and delete now!

June 4, 2009 11:56:16 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting HateForest,
HOORAY FOR PUNISHING PLAYERS WHO DONT WANT TO GET CURB STOMPED! gg. The day this system affects me is the day I delete DG and stop telling my mates to buy it. Maybe I'd be better off with the Warez players on hamachi then bowing to the facist tactics mentioned here.

Do you even know what the word Facist means?

June 5, 2009 2:10:34 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting uberShade,
Exactly, right now a 2v2 becomes a 3v1 with your AI only helping the other team, and something needs to be done about this before punishing the quitter.
Precisely.  There are some things the computer does very well.  When players cap your side alleys on Cataract it's very dilligent about getting them back if they abandon it for amoment and it frees you to do other things.  Also it nobly buys upgrades before equipping itself, sometimes to a fault.  On that level it's good.

However, in some ways it's too good.  For example it seems like it tries to interrupt your casts, which is actually very skillful.  The problem with that though is that the UB and TB have the only two interrupts in the game that make sense as interrupts.  Everyone just spams pounce, bite, penitence etc. the instant they get in range, and interrupt almost purely by accident.  That's fine, because it works, but it's not fine that the computer triest to outplay you when it needs to follow the old KISS rule to win.  For that particular issue they either need to dumb the computer down a bit or they need to improve the interrupt system in this game so that it's advantageous to use the interrupts 'correctly.'

Then there's the more infamous and inexplicable issues where it just wanders into tower fire and depends way too heavily on teleports to save itself, and of course there's more.  They're all problems which highlight AI deficiencies and a conceptual deficiency with putting the AI into human games in the first place, the quitters are the scapegoats for a handful of mechanics which are going to need several more iterations before they work correctly.

I know this is just going to sound like trolling, but I really think you guys can't see the forest for the trees here and jumping on the punitive bandwagon smacks of fanboyism.  This game ain't chess, and the best chess player in the world can't beat a tandy running a good AI.  All of you know full well that the problem is that the AI sucks and all feeders, even human ones, are too detrimental to the game.  In the end it's probably not going to work out like you intend.  Players don't want to play when they're not having fun, and there's a good chance that so many people will quit anyway that having the a scarlet quitter tag won't mean anything, or perhaps it will matter but quitting will still be fairly prevelant and it might divide an already measly community of players.

You guys act like there's so many games running that you can be particularly exclusive, but the truth (or at least what I misperceive as the truth) is that you're going to have to compromise to play and seems just as likely that the community will dwindle as grow (granted I haven't looked at the sales records as of late, if they're still being posted).

June 5, 2009 2:34:21 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

double post

June 5, 2009 5:09:06 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Frogboy, I would like to humbly request you remove AI's with the next patch as well from the online play please.

June 5, 2009 5:51:15 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting TheBigOne,
if you allow quitting in the first 3 minutes of a match you allow people to dodge good opponents to get to the top of the rankings.

If you already implement a concede vote, I could imagine it wouldn't be that much work to also implement a mutual game abort/draw where the majority of both teams have to agree.

 

I agree with TBO, we already had this issue in early SupCom previously. Now you're just making it easy as hell to just noobstomp your way up a ladder by avoiding any game with decent players. I think that's ok for customs but when you click ranked you should be committed period, sucks if someone drops but you'll live. Way better than getting matched up and people constantly dodging you because they're afraid of losing.

June 5, 2009 6:43:43 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Obscenitor,

You guys act like there's so many games running that you can be particularly exclusive, but the truth (or at least what I misperceive as the truth) is that you're going to have to compromise to play and seems just as likely that the community will dwindle as grow (granted I haven't looked at the sales records as of late, if they're still being posted).

Quitters do not help a community grow. A lot of us would rather not play at all than to play with quitters.

June 5, 2009 9:56:27 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums



Rage Quits
If a person quits the game without the team concede and the game lasts more than 10 minutes longer, that person gets a rage quit. In the connection dialog, that person’s rage quitting percentage will be displayed as “Disconnect %”. Players with a high Disconnect % will likely get booted in lobbies and will be put further back in line for skirmish and pantheon games.

Automated systems aren't good for this, especially if the players are forever marked by their "Disconnect %" and this can have an impact on his ability to play with other players (essentially banned). People can leave a match without rage quitting, because of various motives:

  • demigod network bugs. Ex: in one match, in the middle of the match, two players dropped almost instantly; they had not any motive to rage quit, as the game was fine for both sides and they didn't even get killed.
  • user net problems. Ex: i was playing with a friend and we were winning, but suddenly his net connection drops and he's kicked from the game.
  • user's pc crashes. No need for example here.
  • simply an user has to go and he must leave the match. Ex: i was playing with someone and in the middle of the match he announces that he is called by his wife and has to leave the match.
  • etc. It's not always about rage quitting!

The best way is to implement a vote system, so after a user quits, everyone gets to vote if that user rage quited or not. A simple Y or N, that all players must click (ie no neutral votes). If the majority of the players voted that the user rage quitted, then that user has a +1 to his "rage disconnect %". But i still think that this bad rep should be purged (reset) after a while (maybe when the general stats are reset?), to give that user a chance to rehabilitate himself.

Rage quitters are not hard to spot, but it needs a human mind to do that, imo...

If you still want an automated system, then i suggest to mark as a rage quitter only when somebody lives in the next few seconds after he has been killed. Most rage quitters do this...But after a while, i think this system can be avoided by the players who know how many seconds after their death have to pass, in order for them to safely rage quit.

June 5, 2009 12:30:51 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting InfiniteVengeance,

The AI is inherently uncontrollable.

So is the noob that the AI replaced.  AI should give little to no gold / exp when it is subbed into a game.

June 5, 2009 12:47:18 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

First: Game Experience May Change During Online Play... Now where have I heard that before?

Second: Auto team-balancing

Third: Guess you would need a functioning ranking system for team-balancing to work

Fourth: I haven't played the game (), BUT I like the topic since it concerns not only this game. I'm sure I will play the game in the near future though

June 5, 2009 12:49:12 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting RapierX,

Quoting TheBigOne, reply 16if you allow quitting in the first 3 minutes of a match you allow people to dodge good opponents to get to the top of the rankings.

If you already implement a concede vote, I could imagine it wouldn't be that much work to also implement a mutual game abort/draw where the majority of both teams have to agree.

 

I agree with TBO, we already had this issue in early SupCom previously. Now you're just making it easy as hell to just noobstomp your way up a ladder by avoiding any game with decent players. I think that's ok for customs but when you click ranked you should be committed period, sucks if someone drops but you'll live. Way better than getting matched up and people constantly dodging you because they're afraid of losing.
That has nothing to do with quitting, that's just an awful rating system then.  Take the WoW arena ladder for example.  To get first place you need 2800 or so rating.  Playing someone below 2k will give you 0-1 rating.  In that system 'noobstomping' is pointless.

The problem you're most likely to see isn't dodging people by rating, but by DG.  A player who's taking shortcuts to the top of the ladder who runs into a comp his DG is weak against is going to quit every time he's face with a rough combo, and will just keep re-queueing until he gets a better matchup.  It may even be the exact same people he plays, just shuffled differently in his favor.

June 5, 2009 12:51:11 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Obscenitor,



Quoting RapierX,
reply 12

Quoting TheBigOne, reply 16if you allow quitting in the first 3 minutes of a match you allow people to dodge good opponents to get to the top of the rankings.

If you already implement a concede vote, I could imagine it wouldn't be that much work to also implement a mutual game abort/draw where the majority of both teams have to agree.

 

I agree with TBO, we already had this issue in early SupCom previously. Now you're just making it easy as hell to just noobstomp your way up a ladder by avoiding any game with decent players. I think that's ok for customs but when you click ranked you should be committed period, sucks if someone drops but you'll live. Way better than getting matched up and people constantly dodging you because they're afraid of losing.That has nothing to do with quitting, that's just an awful rating system then.  Take the WoW arena ladder for example.  To get first place you need 2800 or so rating.  Playing someone below 2k will give you 0-1 rating.  In that system 'noobstomping' is pointless.


The problem you're most likely to see isn't dodging people by rating, but by DG.  A player who's taking shortcuts to the top of the ladder who runs into a comp his DG is weak against is going to quit every time he's face with a rough combo, and will just keep re-queueing until he gets a better matchup.  It may even be the exact same people he plays, just shuffled differently in his favor.

 

Regardless, once a ranked match begins the game should count. Whether its 5 seconds or 1 hour.

June 5, 2009 12:54:00 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Dead Ghost, that would be a wash anyway.  If you make it so that every leave counts as a rage quit it'll simply mean that nearly everyone will have a certain number of blemishes on their record, and the perception of that record will change accordingly.  Sitting at zero won't be feasible for the majority of people, so logically having a small number of them won't preclude getting into games.

With your voting system it means some lucky people will have virtually none, whereas some unlucky people will tally up a fair amount over time and those ones will arbitrarily have a harder time getting games.  The human vote approach just isn't reliable.

June 5, 2009 12:55:12 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

The only fair thing to do is to never rage quit.

 

I vow to never leave a match early on purpose, no matter how much of a beat down I am in for, period.

 

Unless something in the real world is going horribly wrong, like a fire, a pissed of wife, or underpants gnomes.

June 5, 2009 12:58:33 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

At the end of each match you could pop up a window that allows you to vote on each players sportsmanship with a simple 1-10 rating.

 

As long as you show the amount of votes the person got, and their average score, people can determine more then if they are a rage quiter.  You could tell if a player is a jerk and a noob as well.

June 5, 2009 1:04:42 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Regardless, once a ranked match begins the game should count. Whether its 5 seconds or 1 hour.
I completely agree, just for a different reason.  I think quitting based on which DG you're fighting will be a huge problem.

 

June 5, 2009 3:11:22 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Obscenitor,
Dead Ghost, that would be a wash anyway.  If you make it so that every leave counts as a rage quit it'll simply mean that nearly everyone will have a certain number of blemishes on their record, and the perception of that record will change accordingly.  Sitting at zero won't be feasible for the majority of people, so logically having a small number of them won't preclude getting into games.
.

Then how do you make the difference between the ones that rage quitted and the ones that were unlucky to disconnect because of various reasons, not related to losing the game and quitting in rage?

For example i look at myself: in pantheon stats i'm listed with Total Disconnects: 9. But not even once of those were because of rage quitting. Most of them were due to very high lag or crashing.

I think i understand what you are saying, that rage quitters will allways have a much higher nr of disconnects than normal users, in an automated system. Maybe you're right, but who is gonna tell if someone's nr of disconnects is normal or higher, indicating he's probably a rage quitter? Only experienced hosts will be able to tell, most users will just kick the player with the higher nr of disconnects in the lobby list. It's similar with what's happening now with "high" ping players, players that have under 300 ping (around 200-250), green, and they are kicked from the lobby because the host thinks they will lag the game, which is not true in this game. I don't know, i just have a bad feeling about this...

 

June 5, 2009 3:19:17 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

You can see what Demigods will fight against You in lobby...

Marking all quits as Rage Quits would be ridiculous. Think about situation, where there are HUGE lags making game uplayable or someone just have terrible slow computer, which makes bigger game (4vs4, 5vs5 on large map) goes slowly like hell. Will You quit then, to get Reage-Quitter flag ? I don't think so. So what then ? Stay in game for next 3-4 hours without any pleasure ? Don't You think it's just stupid ?
Another thing is, when someone quits, all other people should be allowed to quit without harm. I'm not saying all should quit the game then, but sometimes there's just no point to play inside AI team / against AI. You shouldn't force people to play with AI's. I NEVER blamed 2nd or 3rd quitter. For me it's natural, they just prefer to play another game and have fun there, instead of wasting time here... For AI games, You can always use single player mode !

June 5, 2009 4:43:50 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting HateForest,
HOORAY FOR PUNISHING PLAYERS WHO DONT WANT TO GET CURB STOMPED! gg. The day this system affects me is the day I delete DG and stop telling my mates to buy it. Maybe I'd be better off with the Warez players on hamachi then bowing to the facist tactics mentioned here.

How about deleting immediatly?

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