Sedna... with Yetis? Am I crazy?

By SolaceAvatar on June 1, 2009 1:38:28 PM from

I have recently been trying out a Sedna build with her minions. The difference between this and the other times I've used it is that I'm having the minions secondary, instead of primary. The way I spec Sedna, there's exactly enough points to max either pounce or minions, and the way I play her, the minions work better.

Not that this is going to be a surprise to anyone who's into this game, but Sedna does very little damage. Pounce just isn't in the league of most attack skills, so I think people tend to pick it up because it interupts. However... Sedna just isn't a damage dealer, so she can't take advantage of an interupted 'port like most characters can.

Sedna has two skill lines that beef up the power of her minions... and when playing a yeti-free build, I eventually got them anyway. The 24hp/s aura is, of course, awesome, and since she spams heal so much, I'd get the cooldown/minion attack speed skill eventually as well.

I love Idol minions. Love them. Sedna buffs one of them passively, bonus! Then I noticed, unlike the other three generals, Sedna buffs her minions generically, which means that includes Idol minions. All six Idol minions get 24hp/s, and 15% attack speed.

Now, I'm not going to regail you with tales about how I smote all my enemies with this setup, because I've only played a few games with it. However, with my playstyle, I did pretty well, better I think than the pounce-included build. General overview: 1 Heal, 2 wind, 3 yeti, 4 heal, 5 wind, 6 silence/yeti*, 7 heal, 8 wind/*the thing you didn't take at level 6... ect, pretty obvious where this is going.

+1 Karma | 38 Replies

All generals buffs affect their idol minions (except idol minions don't boost soul power). You need to learn a bit more about minions before claiming one has a specific advantage in using minions.

mh saying pounce isnt a good dmg/stun combo skill isnt true. even through ive played some good yeti sednas, perhapst after movementbug-patch i will get some otherwise i pounce and go back. yetis will stuck in the creeps/minions... pounce gets me every match some good kills. when enemys retreat i autoattack them to pounce them to finish. works fine if they are taking the damage of sedna not serious

Quoting Milskidasith,

reply 1

All generals buffs affect their idol minions (except idol minions don't boost soul power). You need to learn a bit more about minions before claiming one has a specific advantage in using minions.

Milskidasith, you are incorrect about this, or maybe you are just misinterpreting the original poster. While it's true that the Morale ability that is shared by all generals does affect their minions, Sedna has two other abilities that also affect all minions. The only other general who has abilities like this is Oak (and they're not as good). Erebus's Coven ability affects only Nightwalkers; Compost and Entourage affect only Shamblers. Sedna, on the other hand, can use both Magificent Presence and Healing Wind to buff all of her minions.

As for the original build, I think it sounds like it could be successful, though I do feel like the minions would need to play a more primary role than a secondary one. Minions can do a lot of damage.

Quoting Jaxian,

reply 3

Quoting Milskidasith, reply 1All generals buffs affect their idol minions (except idol minions don't boost soul power). You need to learn a bit more about minions before claiming one has a specific advantage in using minions.
Milskidasith, you are incorrect about this, or maybe you are just misinterpreting the original poster. While it's true that the Morale ability that is shared by all generals does affect their minions, Sedna has two other abilities that also affect all minions. The only other general who has abilities like this is Oak (and they're not as good). Erebus's Coven ability affects only Nightwalkers; Compost and Entourage affect only Shamblers. Sedna, on the other hand, can use both Magificent Presence and Healing Wind to buff all of her minions.

As for the original build, I think it sounds like it could be successful, though I do feel like the minions would need to play a more primary role than a secondary one. Minions can do a lot of damage.

Also, minion + items (favor or not) improve idol minions. And Erebus's lifesteal aura does buff his minions, which is very nice. While I admit Sedna's healing wind does keep her minions alive, it really doesn't help much when you consider that Yeti's are pretty horrible at dealing damage and a minion focused build will gain more benefit from good minions than it well from good minion buffs (IE: pick a different general).

i disagree. I think minions have been proven again and again and again to not be viable in a matchup of skilled players.

As a sedna player I can tell you that this:

is absolutely wrong. Pounce is arguably the best direct damage ability in the game. 1000 damage, and interrupt? are you kidding me? its incredible. And the lvl 15 passive bonus is sick as well. Sedna's auto damage isn't crazy, but you can outlast people, and you have 2 interrupts in pounce and silence. Oh yeah, and you're super fast with grace. Believe me, she doesnt need minions to kill demigods.

of all the general sedna is the worst with minions. Sure the yetis are tough, but they are slow, dont have any range, and sedna doesnt have anyway to up their damage in burst, like ground spikes, bite, penitence, ect.

i think once you play a few more games youll realize that theres no reason, ever to take yetis.

tl;dr: Yes you are crazy

Pounce is arguably the best direct damage ability in the game. 1000 damage, and interrupt? are you kidding me? its incredible.

Eh, I'd take the extra range and damage of Fireball or Snipe, or the awesome bonuses of Penitence.

And the lvl 15 passive bonus is sick as well.

That isn't a passive. It only triggers when you use Pounce and lasts for five seconds. Only affects minions, too. Not bad by any means, but not great.

Quoting Jaxian,

reply 3

Well, I generally buy up all of Sedna's healing (except grace) at first, then get into the yetis. Sedna's early level Yetis are kinda weak and expensive, but idol minions, a yeti or two, and healing wind is good enough to make me a threat, and I can heal to stay in the battle or help an ally. Later on when Sedna's Yetis are stronger and I maybe have points in Presence it's much better at attacking, especially when the Yetis get the cleave ability. People seem to underestimate this skill, but if they're hitting four or five enemies at once, that's... well, tons and tons of damage.

Quoting Kitkun,

reply 6

Pounce is arguably the best direct damage ability in the game. 1000 damage, and interrupt? are you kidding me? its incredible.Eh, I'd take the extra range and damage of Fireball or Snipe, or the awesome bonuses of Penitence.

And the lvl 15 passive bonus is sick as well.That isn't a passive. It only triggers when you use Pounce and lasts for five seconds. Only affects minions, too. Not bad by any means, but not great.

well thats why i said arguably...

well you know what i meant by "passive". and army affects everything that isnt DG's on your team. It's great for that final push with giants, but yeah i take healing lvl 15 first.

Quoting SubtleSalmon,

reply 8

Quoting Kitkun, reply 6
Pounce is arguably the best direct damage ability in the game. 1000 damage, and interrupt? are you kidding me? its incredible.Eh, I'd take the extra range and damage of Fireball or Snipe, or the awesome bonuses of Penitence.

And the lvl 15 passive bonus is sick as well.That isn't a passive. It only triggers when you use Pounce and lasts for five seconds. Only affects minions, too. Not bad by any means, but not great.

well thats why i said arguably...

well you know what i meant by "passive". and army affects everything that isnt DG's on your team. It's great for that final push with giants, but yeah i take healing lvl 15 first.

Pounce is a shitty direct damage move. It has no debuffs with it. Bite has debuffs and does more damage (well, less damage, but with the healing, you are actually getting a 1600 HP swing). Fireball does more damage and has more range. Snipe does more damage and has more range. Spit does way more damage and has more range. Ooze does more same damage over 7 seconds and has a huge debuff (with lots of cooldown modifiers, pounce is less useful for direct damage). Mines have a debuff and do more damage. Hammer slam does way more damage and can easily be combo'd into with any of your allies stuns. Pentience does the same damage, has more range, has a couple extra debuffs, and interrupts.

Pounce is not the best ability by far. Interrupting is not a particularly great attribute for a damage skill, especially considering she already has another interrupt ability and there are other direct damage abilities that interrupt AND have more effects AND have more range. Every other direct damage move in the game beats pounce, and every person with a direct damage move I listed has a stun and/or interrupt anyway, so Pounce interrupting isn't all that great of an ability even after you consider the horrible damage and range.

Quoting Milskidasith,

reply 9

Quoting SubtleSalmon,
reply 8

Quoting Kitkun, reply 6
Pounce is arguably the best direct damage ability in the game. 1000 damage, and interrupt? are you kidding me? its incredible.Eh, I'd take the extra range and damage of Fireball or Snipe, or the awesome bonuses of Penitence.

And the lvl 15 passive bonus is sick as well.That isn't a passive. It only triggers when you use Pounce and lasts for five seconds. Only affects minions, too. Not bad by any means, but not great.

well thats why i said arguably...

well you know what i meant by "passive". and army affects everything that isnt DG's on your team. It's great for that final push with giants, but yeah i take healing lvl 15 first.

Pounce is a shitty direct damage move. It has no debuffs with it. Bite has debuffs and does more damage (well, less damage, but with the healing, you are actually getting a 1600 HP swing). Fireball does more damage and has more range. Snipe does more damage and has more range. Spit does way more damage and has more range. Ooze does more same damage over 7 seconds and has a huge debuff (with lots of cooldown modifiers, pounce is less useful for direct damage). Mines have a debuff and do more damage. Hammer slam does way more damage and can easily be combo'd into with any of your allies stuns. Pentience does the same damage, has more range, has a couple extra debuffs, and interrupts.

Pounce is not the best ability by far. Interrupting is not a particularly great attribute for a damage skill, especially considering she already has another interrupt ability and there are other direct damage abilities that interrupt AND have more effects AND have more range. Every other direct damage move in the game beats pounce, and every person with a direct damage move I listed has a stun and/or interrupt anyway, so Pounce interrupting isn't all that great of an ability even after you consider the horrible damage and range.

i dont know what you're getting at. I'm saying pounce is great, and seeing as how it is sednas only damage ability, it should be in pretty much all of her builds unless you plan to be 100% support.

It's quite a stretch to compare things like ooze, spit, mines, snipe and hammer slam to pounce. penitence doesnt do the same damage, fireball does 50 more dmg unless you dual spec, and bite does do less dmg like you said. So yeah i think pounce is pretty damn good. But im not going to try to convince you.

I think the fact that she has an additional interrupt skill if anything increases pounces value. i silence, count it down, then pounce when they get out of silence because 99% of the time they are trying to cast something. This is of tremendous value.

the more important point here is that yeti's suck.

Quoting SubtleSalmon,

reply 10

unless you plan to be 100% support.

You're playing a healing class that does crappy damage... why not play support? >.>

Quoting SolaceAvatar,

reply 11

Quoting SubtleSalmon,
reply 10
unless you plan to be 100% support.

You're playing a healing class that does crappy damage... why not play support? >.>

Calling her a healing class is laughable. Just because she CAN heal doesn't mean she HAS to heal. Experiment with her more and you'll learn she's good for a lot more than healing.

Quoting SolaceAvatar,

reply 11

Quoting SubtleSalmon,
reply 10
unless you plan to be 100% support.

You're playing a healing class that does crappy damage... why not play support? >.>

because you can outlast pretty much any demigod 1v1 with crazy hp/s and self heal?

Which you can also do while using Yetis instead of pounce... in fact, you can outlast people even better when you don't charge for their face with your toothpick of a weapon.

Quoting SolaceAvatar,

reply 14

Which you can also do while using Yetis instead of pounce... in fact, you can outlast people even better when you don't charge for their face with your toothpick of a weapon.

Sorry, by outlast i meant kill them or make them run away. The yetis are like marginally better than not having those skill points at all. skill minions are totally fucked in this game...

you can keep experimenting with yetis all you want, have a blast. but i think youll quickly realize that there is a reason you never see any skilled players using yetis.

you want to be support? fantastic, take these skills: healing, inner grace, aura, silence, maybe even presence, and buy some priest minions. You want to be able to do damage? mix pounce in there. that is the sad truth of what is sedna.

again, yetis arent viable.

i disagree. I think minions have been proven again and again and again to not be viable in a matchup of skilled players.

Sorry, just can't let this one pass. Minions haven't been picked up in the meta game yet and consequently there are very few people playing them correctly/effectively. I'll stack my minion build Erberus against that-same-assassin-Erberus-you-always-see any day of the week. QoT also has incredibly nasty potential as a general if you've got the balls and fancy footwork to commit sacrilege and skip bramble shield. I don't play Oak or Sedna yet so I can't really speak to them.

The trick to playing a good minion build is you have to have patience. Everyone wants to max their spike damage and go for DG kills as fast as possible but a well played minion build is very difficult to apply that spike damage to, while they out DPS you, drive you away, control the lane/flag and knock over your towers. Seems like few people have the patience to sit back and play like a general because you get few early game kills using your minions to harrass. That's OK though because you also get very few deaths, gain board control and the kills come later when you can stack slows/stuns along with 12+ minions whacking for 50+ points apiece. I've racked up 30+ kills in a game against reasonably skilled opponents like this.

Quoting baalz,

reply 16

i disagree. I think minions have been proven again and again and again to not be viable in a matchup of skilled players.

Sorry, just can't let this one pass. Minions haven't been picked up in the meta game yet and consequently there are very few people playing them correctly/effectively. I'll stack my minion build Erberus against that-same-assassin-Erberus-you-always-see any day of the week. QoT also has incredibly nasty potential as a general if you've got the balls and fancy footwork to commit sacrilege and skip bramble shield. I don't play Oak or Sedna yet so I can't really speak to them.

The trick to playing a good minion build is you have to have patience. Everyone wants to max their spike damage and go for DG kills as fast as possible but a well played minion build is very difficult to apply that spike damage to, while they out DPS you, drive you away, control the lane/flag and knock over your towers. Seems like few people have the patience to sit back and play like a general because you get few early game kills using your minions to harrass. That's OK though because you also get very few deaths, gain board control and the kills come later when you can stack slows/stuns along with 12+ minions whacking for 50+ points apiece. I've racked up 30+ kills in a game against reasonably skilled opponents like this.

i think the problem is mostly AOE damage, of course if you're facing DG's without AOE youll have an easier time, and Erebus has a better time because his minions are free, but im not going to call it viable for any of the generals until i actually see it. I think in order of viability right now its probably Oak>Erebus>QOT>Sedna. But their minionless builds are still way more effective.

I hope you're right, i hope it does get discovered in the meta game, or patched or w/e. cause it truly sucks that generals essentially play as assasins with about 3 skills discounted.

AOE isn't nearly as bad as you'd think if you're really focused on minions. True, most strategies have weaknessess and if you go up against a good TB who really focusses on wide area damage it's gonna be an uphill fight, but it's definately not hard to overcome the AOE that most DGs can throw down, particularly if they're not focused on AOE (as most builds currently favored in the meta don't) and you *do* really focus on your minions.

When my opponents try to (generally half assed while pursuing their original build) use some AOE effects in response to my minions I just stack life/regen/armor on my minions and it works wonders. Haubrick of life, platemail of the crusader, forest band, iron walkers, stat increases, and in extreme cases vampric aura + that lifedraining nightwalker buff means it really takes 2+ direct hits from fully upgraded AOE effects in rapid succession to drop the minions (who are regenning life at a good clip and rapidly replaced if they do go down while essentially ignoring towers). How many DG builds can really drop 1500 damage in a short time over a big area? How bout when the second wave of resummoned minions arrives 10 seconds later? Even when your opponent goes with exactly the right counter you've still got a lot of flexiblity if you focus on being a general and actually spend time managing your minions instead of just having them trail along behind you. Regulus mines? Send your minions in waves. Rook hammer smash? Bring some of your minions around to attack on each flank so he can't hit them all at once (and I pity the poor tower rook). Ring of fire/thorn ring - won't do enough damage alone to kill your minions and the enemy has to be in the center getting whacked - combine with a bit of armor on your DG (did I mention haubrik of life and platemail of the crusader?) and you run in to ruin their day after your minions have chewed on them for a minute.

Yes, obviously there counter-counters, etc. and I don't mean to imply this is by any means an unbeatable stragegy, but my point is AOE is not a silver bullet which makes minions ineffective. If you're curious I'd be happy to play a game and show you an effective minion build (too bad there are no replays).

baalz, stop giving away leet general secrets.

Minions are powerful enough as it is, god forbid they suddenly become FoTM and then nerfed.

Whoever says pounce is a bad dd skill is a bad player. Pounce doing 1k dmg and interrupting mid game is substantial. Not to mention if you have staf of renewal, cd flag, and cd aura. Pounce, silence, pounce....pounce. They will die because they aren't getting away. Cool someone finally hits you with something? Full health from 1 heal. Then its back to pounce spamming.

Well you have a crappy auto attack and a mediocre damage skill and are probably putting most of your money in mana and armor... so the fact you can chase someone is sorta irrelavant if you can't actually kill them before they make it to their tower. I'm not saying you can't make a tank-sedna, but a support-sedna is just as powerful.

I've seen some beast sednas. They stay on top of you and with just the early crit gloves she was doing some nice auto attack damage. Her timing with pounce was also good. The couple times she mis judged would just follow up with a silence. Honestly I almost played sedna this tournament, but I like TB hybrid so much.

The first person to underestimate what an assassin Sedna can do in combat is normally First Blood.

haha +1 tormak

Tried an Assassin Sedna against Hard AI... Against AI it seems too imba

But Minionbuilds can be really fun... it's harder to get the higher levels but if you have 2k hp minions, you could safe a flag from a single Demigod and fight somewhere else. If you play QoT you could additionally micro single shambler to the middle of the creeplanes to mulch... so you could defend a flag a bit easier (minion won't do it alone, cuz your shamblers have more important work to do), creep 2 lanes with shamblers and mulch and stick together with your ally at the same time

But it's hard to play like this... the problem isn't gerneral builds are too weak, the problem is, they are much harder to master than assa builds... Erebus for example.. batswarm-bite-mass charm-bite-mist/batswarm combo is far too easy to try something other.

But it's quite funny to stay some minutes in mist where the creeps of both lanes come out at Cataract with a minion/mist build. Don't know if it works against players but against AI it was a funny build. It replaces a Pause button

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Sedna... with Yetis? Am I crazy?