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HUGE DESIGN FLAW: The loosing side has nothing to do!

By on May 27, 2009 6:09:12 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I've made a number of posts on the rage quitting phenomenon and even a topic arguing for it.

The reason in Demigod is the fact that if you allow the other team to get a head start in levelling, there is more often than not no way of making a comeback.

This is a design flaw in the game.

It is made worse by the fact that there currently is quite difficult to judge if you are facing a team of good opponents or not, and if the other side is full of beginners or not.

It is also made worse by the fact that the in-game communication options are very poor, with no quick-command for signalling for help on the map and no voice chatting or even a permanently displayed chat window.

And this is a newly created flaw, in my opinion:

FPS: In the classic deathmatch, you often respawn at a different place on the map, allowing you to switch tactic (perhaps pick up a sniper gun instead of a close combat fun) and get a new angle of approach (sneak up from an unexpected position, etc).

RTS: With classic resource gathering and base building, you often expand and build a backup base, so if your first one is destroyed, you can regroup and launch a new attack from your secondary (hopefully hidden) position.

Arcade type racing games also often have a "catch up" feature that gives the loosing player a slight speed boost, to give him a chance to compete and retain the fun of the game, but perhaps that is stretching it a bit.

If nothing else, the game badly needs a "team concede" option, though that is not actually a solution to the root of the problem.

+5 Karma | 78 Replies
May 27, 2009 6:20:57 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

, with no quick-command for signalling for help on the map

 

press 'P'.

May 27, 2009 6:28:40 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

If the oposing team is already in your base, then yes its kind of hard. You should accept a loss and take it as it is.

However if the oposing team is better, -> higher level, better items and you cant simply kill them because they have teamwork,... then there are lots of things to do.

The main thing would be : TRY TO TURN IT AROUND!

i more than once have won such a game, where our team was at level 11 with 3 or 4 kills and the other team was near level 20 with kills also in the 20 range.

you can adapt your tactics, coordinate to sell all items and push to catas or giants if you are that late in the game.

cap their portals and lock them and your fine. sure the other team can easily upgrade to giants too, but if you time it nicely you can win.

and there are much more things you can do, its all there, its not a design issue its a mental thing in my opinion.

May 27, 2009 6:32:28 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I don't feel adding in luck or "rubberbanding" is the way to encourage people to play and practice. I understand what you're saying here, but I don't think your method would help.

 

Not that I have any better idea,s of course.

May 27, 2009 6:40:36 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Well, dude...it depends on how much of a headstart you give them. If you play age of empires and you fuck around the first 5 minutes against a good player you are pretty much screwed.

I have made a lot of comebacks in this game, thing is...in this game you most of the time make comebacks around the middle of the game...you DONT make the comeback when the enemy is hitting your base... ppl keep expecting to be able to make miraculous comebacks like that and thats not going to happen...not even in normal RTS.

Lets take another RTS, DOW2. Its gonna be pretty impossible to make a comeback when your tickets hits below 50 and your oponent is around 500.  Yes, i have seen it happen...yes i have done it....but its even harder than a comeback in demigod.

Lets take another game, FIFA. Would you expect a comeback when you are down 3 goals at the 85 minutes? yea...good luck on that. It happens but its pretty hardcore to pull that.

Its a common misconception that ppl should be able to easily comeback when giants are attacking their base alonside demigods. I ll reiterate myseld by saying again that you do the comeback middle game, not end game.

If you would like to have a higher chance at it though, i suggest that you aoe grind their giants. By doing so, you would be like +5 levels above the enemy and with HUGE amounts of gold. If you coordinate yourself with your team, it can be done.

May 27, 2009 6:43:35 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

You can actually stick around and hope someone gets a fatal runtime error and disconnects right when you're in a battle to lock the side portals and start storming the castle like I did today.

 

Sure my teamates hate me... sorry boys!

 

Yeah, but aside from C++ based problems, its very rare that I'll play a game where we say "Huh... thought we were gonna lose.  Go figure."

 

Wish there was more you could do to counter and catch up.  I was playing internet chess last week and was down a bishop and a knight, but somehow managed to come back and win the game.  Good thing the opposing queen hadn't purchased Ashkandor and I still had hope.

May 27, 2009 6:45:06 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

The reason they got ahead of  you in the first place is becasue they are better simple.

If you ask me you need to practice more and get better.

Dont let them get ahead of you, you dont need any "catch up mode"

If the team is rolling you then you need to act sooner rather than later to avoid them levelling too far in front of you.

May 27, 2009 7:15:47 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I agree that comebacks are possible. I also agree that there should be more things in the game to make comebacks easier. This gives the game more appeal - makes it more fun for losing players - and its a huge part of other action rts rpg style games

May 27, 2009 7:17:44 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I had already nice Comebacks its the tactic u play in this game.

U are right the levels are important but how u upgrade your char or citadel is also important
I had a game that was rly hard our opponents run since 20 min to our citadel they were capturing out portals and we tried to get them back. they had already Giants and we had just catas. But in the we buyd giants and our comeback started and we have won the war after 55 min

May 27, 2009 7:51:02 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Learn from your mistakes, if you loose the first 1v1 fight don't try to 1v1 them again, learn from your mistakes and stay back or switch lanes.  Whoever is getting farmed needs to spend thier gold on keep upgrades (gold/xp + giants) and then spend the rest of the game following around the more successful players and helping out.  If nobody on your side is having a good lane then yes your screwed.

 

If you want to compare it to any game, compare it to dota (which is what it is based on).  If everyone on your team is getting gubbed and your 5-0 frags down in the first 10 minutes the chances are your game is screwed.

May 27, 2009 8:00:45 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I was just playing a match where comebacks were coming and going. I lost in the end, but it was quite fun.

 

1. Opposite team slightly overlevels us, we have a hard time taking them down, while the rook plants a forest of towers and tries to take our goldmine.

 

2. We gank the rook, kill him, and then gank all the rest. Our Rook manages to survive (out of all 3 of us and the 2 opponents left) and starts making his own advance levelling the playing field.

 

3. RIght time for priests. I volunteer to buy all the creep upgrades and the rest of my teammates go for power artifacts. THe opposing team get their priests out at the right time.

 

4. A few kills here and there, they seem to dominate the flags.

 

COME BACK 1.

 

5. They make advances to our portals. Our rook cap locks our portals. I buy angels and catapults at once.

 

6. We start to dominate. We get all the flags.

 

7. They level the playing field with their own angels and catapults, and start dominating again.

 

8. I buy giants and start spending money on creep power. Rook starts harassing their portals. I teleport and cap lock them, then run away

 

COME BACK OF THE COME BACK

 

9. They buy giants, but our creeps are stronger because of the upgrades I enhanced them with. They cap lock their portals constantly, and drive us out.

 

10. While one of them stays behind caplocking their portals the other 2 teleport their way to our portals and cap lock them as well.

 

GAME OVER.

lolz

May 27, 2009 8:08:25 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting pRoneG,
I had already nice Comebacks its the tactic u play in this game.

U are right the levels are important but how u upgrade your char or citadel is also important
I had a game that was rly hard our opponents run since 20 min to our citadel they were capturing out portals and we tried to get them back. they had already Giants and we had just catas. But in the we buyd giants and our comeback started and we have won the war after 55 min

Yes, but you can only have a comeback if your team has some mid-to-high skills... it's pointless with people that don't even know how to lock a flag. There needs to be some kind of metric to show how experienced players are. I see alot of prearranged team vs random team, where ofc the prearranged will almost always win. This is extremly pointless.

May 27, 2009 8:11:58 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I wouldn't call rts' alternate bases a real opportunity to make a comeback, unless your opponent is seriously suck, or it's some weird game that has rules I've never heard of.

Likewise, I wouldn't call fps' changing of locations a promotion of comebacks. It's just to reduce exploiting spawn kills.

The healing crystal in itself helps the underdog team, since they are usually closer to it and able to heal better.

I agree it's tough to make comebacks in DG, but I don't really see this as something that needs to get boosted. TBH, I think that adding some boost to the losing team would just draw out an end game that already feels unnaturally long.

May 27, 2009 10:17:37 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

This is a really great topic and I agree, in spirit, with the OP that good game design allows for the possibilities of "comebacks".

Honestly, if any game, be it football, soccer, hockey, baseball, or chess were determined in the first 5 minutes then the rest of the game would be pointless.

Sometimes demigod does feel that way. In part, because it is a wargame. In other games, advantages aren't designed to accumulate over time. For instance, in football, if you get a touchdown, you don't get awarded extra players on the field or an additional timeout. On the other hand, most wargames, and even real war, advantages do accumulate over time. Killing the other guy's stuff or taking his flag position is the whole point. As the game goes on you maximize your interests, position, and advantage in order minimize your oppponents and slowly take away his strategic and tactical options.

So on one hand you have to provide for comebacks and but on the other hand you have to acknowlege that leveraging and accumulating advantage is the whole point of a strategy game.

Warcraft 3 handled this mechanic partly by having tiered upkeep. Basically your gold accumulation had a margin of diminishing returns the larger your army. However, if you got wiped out your army "food" level was then again small and your gold income increased. This allowed you to replenish your army faster than the side that may have had advantage from your last battle. There was a window where the stronger side had to press it's advantage before the weaker side could resume it's strength via enhanced gold generation.

Additionally, comebacks in WC3 could be made if a losing side were able to "sucker" a stronger opponent or team of opponents into a well designed base that offered little escape. An impetuous foe could be lured into a trap and at the end of it they would lose their huge army despite just having bested yours on the open field.

I'm sure there are other examples.

Demigod does have the possibility for comebacks but it is dependent on the warscore, the map you are playing on, the attitude of your team mates, and your ability to coordinate.

Some maps are better for come backs and tide changers than others. For instance, I have found "Prison" is very unforgiving. The stronger team, if played right, can farm the weaker team for gold and leverage that into great items while holding the flags and getting a better warscore. Because it's easy to move around, they pretty much dominate the entire map at all times.

On the other hand, Cataract is more prone to back door flag caps, side attacks to the citadel and hit and run harrassment. You can be a weaker hero, but if you have enough speed, you can wreak havoc w/ flag capping and portal ninja techniques until your team "catches" up on levels and items.

Another aspect of turning the tide are the reinforcements. Highly upgraded reinforcements make a big difference mid and end game. They are harder to take down w/ aoe and they will go thru your opponents reinforcements and buildings faster. This allows your reinforcements to "build up" at the front lines of the battle. Mathematically, even small advantages in dps and hp's will result in your reinforcements outnumbering your opponent at the point of contact.

In order to come back from behind you have to recognize your weaknesses, recognize theirs, and coordinate. Anyone on ventrilo or teamspeak has a huge advantage in this game because timing is everything. Double backdoor portal capping on cataract w/ flag locks while giants are up on both sides will turn the tide quite quickly. Another thing you can do is to try to coordinate your efforts to avoid their strong heroes and team up and hunt their weak heroes. But you have to have a willing team and that takes typing if you are not on vent.

I've noticed that it's hit and miss when you are in a pug. If you call out directions one of two things happen. You either get the "shut up noob" response, which means your team mates usually don't really want to even try to coordinate. That's why you are probably behind to begin with. Or you get cooperation, and more often than not you can actually pull some bad games out of the fire. I'd say most of the time you get the "shut up noob" response because most people think whatever they are doing at the time, whether it is really helping with the overall goals of winning the game or not, is the right thing to do. Even if that means farming reinforcements and not stopping to cap flags, etc.

The biggest failure in design of Demigod is how much advantage you can gain, and keep, by killing Demigods themselves. In a tight game, with good players on both sides, it's not as much of a problem. However, if you have someone who's bad on your team who has died ten times where everyone else has died only once or twice, that player is feeding your opponents gold and some seriously good items or cit upgrades. Now, those heroes can run the map and start farming you because even though you might be equal skilled they are geared and you are not. I'm not sure what should be done to address this but I'd like GPG to provide some mechanic to not allow one bad player basically submarine their team irreversably.

May 27, 2009 11:21:03 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I don't think comebacks in Demigod are very plausible.  There is no way to make up a gold difference other than killing enemy Demigods, which you can't do, because of the gold difference (their items are better)

If they're up in War score you're a little better off, you can try to cap as many flags behind their back as you can, but they're stronger than you and will fight you off the flags.

The missing aspect is being able to farm your way back into the game.  And that's because killing creeps does little except give you experience.

May 27, 2009 11:24:53 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I don't think comebacks in Demigod are very plausible.
I've seen a dozen games where the winning team was down by as much as five or six kills at the end. This is after they started dominating and racking up kills. Not to mention some of them had even war scores as well. Comebacks aren't just plausible, but are a regular feature of the matches among the players I've fought with.

 

May 27, 2009 11:28:47 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Lose

Losing

Get it right .

May 27, 2009 11:34:42 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Some characters lend themself better for comebacks than others (Oak being one of them), simply because endgame > early game for them.

I think the biggest flaw in Demigod is that there's very little room for cutting corners. The three biggest sources of progress are killing creeps, other DG's and taking flags. If a team gets behind, it can somethimes be very hard to pull some stunt to get back into the match (for example, by completely abondon flags and go for creep etc.) since they are usually all in the same place. I.e, the enemy DG's will be in the middle of the map, guarding flags and killing creeps.

May 27, 2009 11:35:21 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

if u lose hard early then yes the game will be boring

but if u dont suck hard u can comeback...

May 27, 2009 11:45:41 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

i still think there are many opportunities for comebacks if both teams are equally skilled.

and i think thats the most important part.

if one team is clearly better, comebacks SHOULD be hard or even impossible. if not whats the point of the game? i can start to play dice-poker instead of playing a competitive online game.

May 27, 2009 12:46:30 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I think there is some rubberbanding.

Take cataract.  If you're losing, they probably have your corner towers down and possibly some in the front of the base.  This means enemy grunts push all the way up to your entrance before dying.  Since most of the time the front of your base is well-protected, it's hard for the enemy to take this area and they are very vulnerable since they are so far from their own base.  The point is, tons of demigods and creeps in a vulnerable spot in the front of your base with close proximity to your crystal means you should be able to spam abilities on the demis and earn massive xp on the grunts.  When you're losing is a good time to upgrade your xp gain at the citadel too.  So easy, safe access to grunts and advantageous positioning against the assaulting demigods gives you an advantage despite your disadvantages, and you can leverage it to even the odds.  That is notwithstanding all the citadel upgrades that are defensive to help you repel the demigods and mount a comeback, like upgrading towers and trebuchets.

May 27, 2009 1:04:44 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Well, we won a dominate game half an hour ago with Oberscheisse, me as TB, my teammate as UB against 2 Sedanas. I died 3 times (yeah that's three) during the first 5-10 minutes, and had no kills, no money, nothing.

I tried to avoid conflict after that and started to focus on citadel upgrades. It was a really close match, our opponents were really good players, but we manged to win. My teammate was one hell of a good UB, but even he had no kills nor deaths during the first 5-10 minutes, if I remember right.

The moral of the story is: you shouldn't quit if you're killed in the first couple of minutes, not even if you're killed 3 times. Just try another tactic that counters your enemy's and even if you fail at least you tried.

May 27, 2009 1:06:01 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

TBH most RTS games have little scope for comeback.

Most I have played are determined early on. Only with bad players is a comeback possible.

I lost some games later on in this game while winning, because I didn't have enough experience with the items. My start game was strong, but when it wasn't strong enough to take out the other team, then I would be on the losing side, because I wouldn't know how to counter Ashkandor.

If anything, this game is fairly kind to players who die a couple of times early on, you can buck your game up and comeback. Take most RTS games where the first rush will make or break you, it is forgiving.

Playing Supcom was even more harsh. Two good players just rush to the critical mass point in their economy, whoever gets there first wins. Even the walk to the first collector point, could cause a loss for you!

The only map that was a little different to that was Open Palms, due to all the attack routes.

May 27, 2009 2:00:31 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Take cataract.  If you're losing, they probably have your corner towers down and possibly some in the front of the base.  This means enemy grunts push all the way up to your entrance before dying.  Since most of the time the front of your base is well-protected, it's hard for the enemy to take this area and they are very vulnerable since they are so far from their own base.  The point is, tons of demigods and creeps in a vulnerable spot in the front of your base with close proximity to your crystal means you should be able to spam abilities on the demis and earn massive xp on the grunts.

The reverse is also true though on cataract.  Chip off those front towers or get a demigod with good aoe to stand near the center and they can kill both creep waves at once effortlessly for massive exp.  (Queen of Thorns is particularly good at it)

May 27, 2009 2:18:19 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

True, but since you're close to the crystal for both mana and health and have towers you should be able to spam abilities to repel the demigods and force them to take a long trip back to base to recharge.

May 27, 2009 2:29:04 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

 I think the ability to fix/buy destoryed towers would be a nice addition.

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