Bottlenecking Maps - Please Stop » Forum Post by Ke5trel

Bottlenecking Maps - Please Stop

By Ke5trel on May 22, 2009 1:58:01 PM from

Two games I played last night:

A 51 minute game on Crucible. It was 2v2 Conquest with fast DG respawn. The other team had better pushwork and better killwork throughout play. They had giants at about 25 minutes in. We buffed up towers and played defensively until we had a 5 level advantage and enough gold to max out grunt stats and get priests, angels, catas, and giants ourselves. And artifacts. That took about 15 minutes.

During that fifteen minutes it's worth noting that our income and xp far, far exceeded that of our opponents, because we stopped feeding kills. It's much harder to kill someone when there's only one way to get to them and they are sitting in front of four buffed towers. On the other hand you have a long, long walk back to safety if something goes wrong.

So at 40 minutes the opponents quit out, and I understand why. The next 11 minutes was just pushing the stream back in the other direction to the enemy citadel for the finish.

The other game lasted 35 minutes, against the same team on Cataract but with a different teammate. Again, the opponents have better teamwork. When they upgrade to giants at 25 minutes or so we have to either defend the front of the base or keep them from locking our portals, no way to do both.

We lost that game. And we should have. We should have lost the first one too, but we didn't because the momentum present on most of the other maps when one team is clearly winning evaporates on Crucible and Exile.

The conclusion reached in another thread is that Giants are not a IWIN button unless you can support them and keep neutral and enemy portals locked down. Giants/catas allow you to open new avenues of attack and consolidate the old one. That's all they do for you. If you can't support them and use the advantage they present to lock portals down then a good opponent will eat your giants and eventually emerge from the shadow of defeat to wtfpwn you. Conversely, if you can keep an opponent from taking full advantage of their giants then you can rapidly outlevel and outbuy them.

I'll even go so far as to put a general rule out there - Don't upgrade to giants unless you can win within five waves or your opponent has giants and you can't beat them back.

The problem with a map like Crucible or Exile is that the bottlenecks on the reinforcement streams mean that you have no place to open new fronts. You can't get to the portal flag on these maps (does Exile even have portal flags?) without going through everything the enemy has to throw at you.

The backdoor on Crucible is a nice idea, but if everyone knows how to play then the defenders will always be able to prevent a lock without losing advantage elsewhere. You can't count on your opponent's inattention to win, and you shouldn't have to.

Exile actually has artifact shops in each base. In conjunction with the killer bottleneck 30 meters away it means that you can cede map control 10 minutes in and never leave your base again and you'll still be able to produce 2k hitpoint critical strikes every 3 seconds or so. Awesome.

Bottlenecks in this type of game produce situations where two evenly matched teams can play forever. That's not ideal. They also produce situations where one team knows how to play together and the other just has to know how to turtle, generally and the turtleteam will win. Every time. That means that you've made two interesting, beautiful maps useless for competitive play. Finally bottlenecks make certain defensive and AoE abilities and Demigods extremely powerful.

Please look at redesigning Exile and Crucible to allow multiple avenues of attack and defense. Please design any future maps to exclude bottlenecks completely.

Oh, and because I've seen this in every other thread on these forums - yes, it is possible to win on these maps. Yes, it is possible to win quickly. Yes, I know how to do both, and I have. I also think it's fine that you love Exile and Crucible and named your cats after them. No I don't need to l2p, kthx. No I don't think exotic strategy #7 which works for you every time under any circumstances on these maps disproves my point.

Bottlenecks are bad, period.

Thanks, Kestrel

+118 Karma | 23 Replies

It was 2v2 Conquest with fast DG respawn.

Um...that's why you got a stalemate. The respawn timers are there for a reason - so after you kill someone you have time to push while they're dead.

I have similar disgust for the innumerable TF2 servers with instant or fast respawn. NO SHIT that no one is ever going to win, when you take 2 minutes to walk to their base and kill someone and they come back in 3 seconds obviously no one is going to get momentum.

Quoting InfiniteVengeance,

reply 1

It was 2v2 Conquest with fast DG respawn.

Um...that's why you got a stalemate. The respawn timers are there for a reason - so after you kill someone you have time to push while they're dead.

I have similar disgust for the innumerable TF2 servers with instant or fast respawn. NO SHIT that no one is ever going to win, when you take 2 minutes to walk to their base and kill someone and they come back in 3 seconds obviously no one is going to get momentum.

lololowned

a kind of agree with kestrel the maps that all funnel into one bottleneck at the main base can drag the game out

fast dg respawn... LOL... if you mess with the standard settings please dont complain on balance. The stuff is balance for the standard settings only.

It like creating a 20k game, with all dgs level 20, regulus vs tb and the tb player complains he die to fast to regulus with ashkandor while he cant even attack while moving in fire mode...

I agree with both Kestrel and InfiniteVengeace. Fast respawn ruins the game, but bottlenecking on Crucible and Exile often leads to some very bad games.

finger of god anyone? a level 2 should be added with much beefier stats as it would allow for more firepower that cant be countered but is limited by it's inconsistancy. It can create oppertunities but not if its weak sauce.

Quoting InfiniteVengeance,

reply 1

OK that wouldn't be a bad point. Fast respawn is definitely going to make it difficult to press a kill advantage in most circumstances. It didn't matter in this case because the enemy didn't kill us anymore once we turtled. I guess I didn't make it clear with this part:

During that fifteen minutes it's worth noting that our income and xp far, far exceeded that of our opponents, because we stopped feeding kills. It's much harder to kill someone when there's only one way to get to them and they are sitting in front of four buffed towers. On the other hand you have a long, long walk back to safety if something goes wrong.

In any case, you are right that I shouldn't have used that game as the example because respawn timing clouds the issue.

The problem is that this was the first game I ever played on Crucible with fast respawn, but I have seen these trends on bottleneck maps since before release.

Let's scratch anecdote though, since that approach apparently doesn't hold water with the pros, and look at very rough average game time of maps per the Pantheon page:

Cataract - 31.5 Min
Crucible - 34 Min
Exile - 35.5 Min
Leviathan - 29 Min
Prison - 27 Min
Mandala - 30 Min
Brothers - 33.5 Min
Zikurat - 34.5 Min

So all right around the 30 minute mark, and a bit of deviation either way. Let's look at it a bit deeper though -

Of those the top 4 from longest to shortest are Exile, Zikurat, Crucible, and Brothers. I understand why Zikurat and Brothers are up there - they are huge 4v4/5v5 maps with a ton of towers and multiple lanes - even if you have the early advantage and a solid team against newbs it's probably hard to finish a game on Brothers in less than 20 minutes.

But why does a game on Exile last on average 6.5 minutes longer than one on Leviathan? Why does the average game on Crucible last 7 minutes longer than one on Prison? If you could come up with an explanation other than the one I've provided I'd be happy to hear it.

And we don't have access to the tail on those map averages either. (Though, Bara, if you do have access it would be great if you could throw up some numbers to support or destroy the point I'm about to make)

Can you imagine a game on Prison lasting 60 minutes? Maybe. If the teams were just ridiculously well-matched.

What about a 60 minute game on Crucible or Exile? Absolutely, happens all the time, and it has *nothing* to do with matched teams and everything to do with the map strongpoints allowing DGs + Grunts + multiple towers + 5 second walk to Crystal to fight DGs + Grunts + Momentum.

What you'll find is that the momentum evaporates after 5 melted waves or 3 dead DGs. And then it's just a question of how long the turtles will farm you before rolling up the carpet.

Full circle to spawn timers - the only way to beat a turtle team who knows what they are doing is to kill enough of them at the same time that you have a numerical advantage and can consolidate the position before they respawn. Offense on these maps is always at a disadvantage though, and a turtle team can heighten that.

Heal Sedna, HoL Shield Oak, Tower Rook, Stamina UB, Speed Reg with Mines/Mark, Bramble QoT, Mistswarm Erebus, and AoE Ice TB are all strong defensive builds. You are going to have a really tough time killing any of those in even numbers, let alone when they are supported by 4 towers, minions, and their own grunts.

Personally I prefer a 15 minute game to a 90 minute one, and I think the difference is map design.

PS Meta - I look forward to reading your posts on balance. And Neovain, no, no it isn't anything like that.

perhaps a better criticism is that you were playing Conquest on a map that is a poor choice for that game mode.

Crucible and Exile are both best played as Dominate maps.

the best conquest maps are the ones with multiple ways into a base and a healthy separation between the Citadel and Health Crystal. Cataract, Leviathan, Mandala, Zikurat and Brothers are all good for this.

Prison seems intended as an arena type map best used for Slaughter mode.

Quoting transitive,

reply 8

perhaps a better criticism is that you were playing Conquest on a map that is a poor choice for that game mode.

Crucible and Exile are both best played as Dominate maps.

the best conquest maps are the ones with multiple ways into a base and a healthy separation between the Citadel and Health Crystal. Cataract, Leviathan, Mandala, Zikurat and Brothers are all good for this.

Prison seems intended as an arena type map best used for Slaughter mode.

Ah I see. So Crucible and Exile are actually fine, I'm just picking the wrong game mode for the map.

Let's say that's true - the devs somehow designed 25% of our available maps for Domination and deliberately ensured Conquest and Fortress games would drag and Slaughter games would be completely broken on them.

Sucks for all those people playing Pantheon and Skirmish who don't have a choice on map or mode, no?

What about a 60 minute game on Crucible or Exile? Absolutely, happens all the time, and it has *nothing* to do with matched teams and everything to do with the map strongpoints allowing DGs + Grunts + multiple towers + 5 second walk to Crystal to fight DGs + Grunts + Momentum.

I'd say it's because both maps are very large (Crucible seems small but you really have to walk far to get to their base, and Exile is just massive) and have the longest "creep to Citadel" paths, along with the fewest creep waves. On Crucible there's one, and Exile two, despite how large they are.

Not only this but it's basically impossible to take the portal flags of the other team like you can in Cataract and other maps have side creep waves that make a big difference.

As such it's not the chokepoint but just the lack of creep "firepower" that you can amass to gain momentum.

Cataract is the second smallest map still. Exile isn't much bigger than Cataract I think.

They key to crucible is to not upgrade until its almost over. If you are winning(killling them more), then just sit behind their first set of towers, and kill the waves that come. Your waves will die to the towers, and you can keep them from getting xp/gold. If they try and portal in behind you at their tower, attack them when they get too close(honestly if you grab armor early enough you can ignore the towers and kill them with your teammate). Farm up a bit till you out gear them quite a bit, then save up till you can invest up through catapults, then end the game.

Try to spend most of the time fighting behind their first tower set.

Crucible and Exile ARE fine. its the Pantheon random game mode choosing thing thats kinda broken. lets not put the cart before the horse.

tower rooks when there is only one line of grunts... ugh... we need more lines

Uhm... you just wrote that it's a bad idea to buy reinforcement on map with bottlenecks but still you didn't realize the obvious answer: Don't buy them, buy artifacts instead. If you have the lead and the other team is hiding in their base, you will tear down their towers sooner or later with better gear. If they buy reinforcement, then you can farm them.

I dunno why everyone's so scared of tower rooks. The towers don't last terribly long, are single target, and cannot focusfire. Minions, AoE's, long-range attacks, and armor are all easy counters.

quoting post

The problem with a map like Crucible or Exile is that the bottlenecks on the reinforcement streams mean that you have no place to open new fronts. You can't get to the portal flag on these maps (does Exile even have portal flags?) without going through everything the enemy has to throw at you.

I agree with you completely, Exile and Crucible are significantly less fun to play.

Make the second flag on Exile (the one off to the side for each team) into a (double?) portal. Send grunts from that portal up that side, and grunts from the main portal up the other side.

Buying giants too early on exile is a "beginners mistake".

Ive been there and done that and it wasnt fast respawn.

You just need to sit tight, and keep farming their creeps, keep control of the gold flags, and upgrade your gear until you're sure you can crush the opponents. *Then* get giants.

Actually id even go further and say that upgrading creeps at all i a beginners mistake until youre ready to get giants and crush them utterly. Ive been on many losing teams because (IMO) someone on our team decided to get priests early and feed the enemy. OK sometimes getting catapaults and not giants works, but never on a map like exile.

They deffinately need to add more 2v2 maps though because crucible is awful (for reasons you didn't mention) and cataract is a clusterfuck.

I'm wondering how you stop someone from pushing your towers because literally every game I play once we're ready to end the game we tank their heros and the towers and there's nothing they can do about it. The heroes we use doesn't even matter because everything can be built agressively even qot ().

I have no problems with buying giants on exile. When we have the upper hand with the flags and pushing the other DGs back we are war rank 10 and around lvl 11-12. The opponents are around 7-8. Giants are usually destroying the base, we don't need to do that much.

BUT, this is not even closed a matched team. I haven't got an equal game on exile nor on crucible. The longest matches were definately on prison and cataract. But I know what you mean with bottlenecking even on cataract. When we played on the first day we were too newb to get the other portals too and we just fought in the middle. Surely we died because of the towers and other demigods and not having outleveled them. In fact we were behind. So they turtled there and were finally 5 levels above us. I mean, we made a mistake. A big one. It was a cool tactic from them. Problem is on exile and crucible you are forced to do this tactic. You really have to be careful with upgrading to giants. But then again, on exile there is a 15% health flag. If you really hold ALL flags you WILL win. On crucible it's another thing.

Um...that's why you got a stalemate. The respawn timers are there for a reason - so after you kill someone you have time to push while they're dead.

I have had lots of games with all default settings on Crucible and the exact same thing happened as Kestrel described it.

Have to agree 110% with Kestrel on this one. I have had so many terrible games because of these poorly designed maps (wouldnt say poorly designed, just they can drag on for way too long imo), and that have lasted so long I really was just bored shitless and wanted it to end even though I was winning. On Crucible I suggest adding another reinforcement portal and letting one flow of the reinforcements go across the exp flag lane so there are 2 lanes instead of one.

Bottlenecking Maps - Please Stop

agreed.

it is annoying when you spend the last 20 mins of the game just pushing back and forth, when you know your team is clearly going to win/lose. IT GETS BORING.

Quoting KOREAslayer,

reply 19

I have no problem winning games fast. It's pretty rare that a game goes long enough where I could get war rank 10 to get the giants if i wanted to. Crucible is the map I play more than any other because you can't bounce between lanes and farm creeps and avoid enemy heroes (in 2v2) like you can on larger maps (in 2v2).

They deffinately need to add more 2v2 maps though because crucible is awful (for reasons you didn't mention) and cataract is a clusterfuck.

I'm wondering how you stop someone from pushing your towers because literally every game I play once we're ready to end the game we tank their heros and the towers and there's nothing they can do about it. The heroes we use doesn't even matter because everything can be built agressively even qot ().

I can show you today if you'd like

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Bottlenecking Maps - Please Stop