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Some thoughts on people dropping during the game

By on May 21, 2009 3:45:47 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Recently I posted a blog asking what people’s speed test rating:

http://frogboy.impulsedriven.net/article/351550/Whats_your_speedtest_rating

Lots of interesting data there.

Most people tend to only think about their download speeds and little about their upload speeds. But if you look, at that thread, a lot of people have marginal upload speeds as in well less than a single megabit.

Since I know I’m not a typical user, I talked to a friend of mine whose connection is about 2 megabits down but only .16 megabits up.  Looking at that thread, there are quite a few people who are getting less than a half megabit up.

Then I asked him to open up task manager in Vista and open up networking:

image

I had him add more columns so I could see the bytes sent per interval.  Turn out, he was already sending around 10k a second (bit torrent client in the background) plus a bunch of little tray items that occasionally tossed another 5k to 20k now and then.  That’s kilobytes btw.

Now, when you see that you have say a 0.2 megabit upload speed, that means your system tops out at 25k per second. 

Demigod, being a game that is synchronous (what you see on the screen is the same as what other people see) uses 1k per second up to over 20k per second as you add players.  And it’s not linear. I.e. it takes a lot more to handle 8 people than 6 people and a lot lot more to do 10 people than 8.

So let me ask you a question: What do you think the in-game behavior would look like if you’re playing someone who has an internet connection that can’t do more than 0.4 megabit upload in an 8 person game? Their sim speed would be fine. Depending on the way their system handles ping requests their ping might be fine or it might quickly jump to several seconds to respond.  Toss in some “security” programs that sniff every packet coming in to that too.

Now luckily, there are some things that can be done about this. 

First, there’s just plain awareness. Since I’m always in debug mode, whenever I get into a game that’s “stuttering” I ask if anyone is running any network programs. I usually end up finding out that someone has bit torrent running in the background but they have a “5 megabit” connection.

You know, 5 megabit like this:

image

Second, it’s pretty clear (to me anyway) that we’re going to have to make some tools that are accessible in game that will help identify people who are (need a new term) band-lagging out. They  might have a great ping (26ms for instance) but they can’t play with 8 people unless they turn off the other junk they have going on.

Third, we can look for ways to reduce the amount of data being sent across. I’m not privy to the network traffic but I do know that things like the friends list and chat windows in game and such do add to the mix.

Fourth, those who have seen people disconnect during the middle of the game can open up task manager (on Vista) and do what I asked my friend to do. It’s the type of thing that might help people with other games too. I suspect my friend’s Word of Warcraft experience will improve after I told him to turn off some of the junk he had loaded.

Two-Way education

One of the things I’ve learned during Demigod’s release is just how unaware some people are on how this stuff works.  You’ll get someone with a connection like what I showed above saying “Well, Left 4 Dead works fine!”.  Well, of course, you’re connecting to a dedicated server in a non-synced game.  A first person shooter is a totally different system than a strategy game.

I had one user I was talking to who was telling me how “broken” networking is in Demigod because every time he plays he lags out.  I asked him a few questions and eventually discovered that he has an Xbox 360 and is almost constantly downloading movies from Xbox Live.  When I brought that up, he said “But that’s on a different network cable.” 

I highly recommend looking at that thread though:

http://frogboy.impulsedriven.net/article/351550/Whats_your_speedtest_rating

It’s very educational.

+897 Karma | 87 Replies
May 22, 2009 3:54:48 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I have people in my clan who have slow upload speeds.

 

With 210kbit/s upload speed they cant even play a 3v3.  2v3 works fine, but 6 player in total hits their bandiwidth limit and ping spiking starts.

So saying that 20K is enough for 5v5 is not true. 20K will not work.

I want to see someone who has 300kbit/s upload speed and if he can play a 5v5. I dont think he will be able without ping spiking.

 

You have to remember, that on normal dsl lines, if you come near your upload maxspeed, the ping will start to grow.

For me its like 80% to 90% usage of my total bandwidth when it starts to spike.

May 22, 2009 4:21:21 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Go sweden!

May 22, 2009 6:52:27 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Sweden is nuts

May 22, 2009 7:04:14 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I was impressed

Then we took it to Canada =P

Apparently half way around the world makes my internet a sad panda

May 22, 2009 8:24:11 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

http://www.speedtest.net/result/479159145.png

 

 

May 22, 2009 8:43:02 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

In the UK a 256Kb/s upload speed on an ADSL service is not uncommon even if the download speed is way in excess of this.

I would hope Demigod or any other MP game sticks to those limitations.

May 22, 2009 8:52:15 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Here's mine:

May 22, 2009 9:23:10 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

 M'kay.. This is news to me. I thought I had a nice enough line, but I didnt know most people have that crappy line..

 

Normally:

[URL=http://www.speedtest.net][/URL]

Put 5 torrents (around 900-1000kB/s total once it got going) and a download running just to see how much it affects:

[URL=http://www.speedtest.net][/URL]

 

Not bad for a free connection.. Finland ftw

 

Edit:  Anyone have any idea why my UPLOAD speed was this heavily affected? The torrents didnt actually upload that much - only 30-40kB/s total.

May 22, 2009 10:22:43 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Competition seems to be evrywhere ..  Now we compare who has the higher upload ..
But i find it more interesting, what are the lower end connection lines.
So, here is mine.

I know this is really bad .. but for 2vs2 it works well.

One of the things I’ve learned during Demigod’s release is just how unaware some people are on how this stuff works.

Yes thats true. But the normal user doesnt have professional networking skills, hence the most players doesnt understand how this networking stuff works. Well thats ok. But they are able to compare plain numbers .. so why dont you provide some?

Seriously, i've even looked at all of my game packages laying arround here. Only a few have some information about the needed internet bandwidth. The best information i found was on the game package of "C&C - First Decade", which says 56.6Kbps for 2-4 player and broadband for 5-8 player. Another example comes from NFS PS that states "512Kbps or more". All other games (including Demigod!!) just have "needs broadband internet" printed on the box.

But what does this mean? What have this meant two years ago? What does it mean in 5 years?

Frogboy, in your post you are also vague about the required bandwidth (quote: "up to over 20k per second"). Please make a clear statement of the needed connection requirements (up/dl). The best would be to have bandwith requirements starting with 1vs1 up to 5vs5. So everyone will be able to decide what size of game you can play over your internet connection. I find this very important bc this game is mostly focused on multiplayer. And those information would really help me. With it im able to decide if friends are able to play 5vs5 games and get them to buy the game.

jls

p.s. Thank you for this great journals .. i read and enjoy them prior to all other news day by day.

May 22, 2009 3:14:29 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

what i dont understand: why are all other games, including strategy games, working that well and demigod is not?!

and what is the difference between demigod and other games that allowes this statement "Demigod, being a game that is synchronous (what you see on the screen is the same as what other people see)".

i would say in a shooter the others have to see what i am seeing, because the whole game couldn´t work without that basis.

thats pretty weird!!

 

i can upload up to 100kb/s and i drop out of 3on3 games... 100kb.. i think thats more than enough. at least its more than enough for all other games out there. and i posses a lot of games.

 

and NO, i am not running anything in the background that uses bandwidth! i even have to disable my firewall to play demigod. i cant connect to other players if i have it turned on but with the rule to let pass all demigod related traffic... thats weird too!

June 4, 2009 10:36:54 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Ok, I may be off, but in my limited understanding, in a game like this (the way they designed it) it needs to transfer all the info, of all the units on the entire board at the same time, and all players computers need to accept it.

 

On an FPS, typically your computer broadcasts to the server and the server broadcasts to the other players.

 

When hosted other things to consider is in some FPS your computer does not need to know of the other players until they are within field of view, and the details of that are more important as you get nearer (this is less true now) but a common thing that was done was make maps with limited fields of view both for video card issues and network issues.

 

Lastly, in an FPS you are occupied with at most 100 moving units?

 

In this game if you have all commanders types and are playing 5V5 you might be talking around 170 units + reinforcements that may total that equal something like 16 per with full upgrades…and there are up to 6 dispensers on some maps…. So that is 100 every pop…so it is conceivable that near the game end point you have 500~1000 units on the  field at a time.

 

With the structure they are using, (I think) your computer is communicating to all opponents the location of everything as you see it, and they are communicating back they way they see it…these need to be the same.

 

I am sure some system is out there to qualify differences. But in essence they probably have something like unit, location, vector, facing, animation, HP, timing till next power use and attack type. This includes structures.

 

So it is tracking lets say 600 units and it is giving 9 or 10 stats on that every what .5 seconds or so???

 

That is a lot of info to be transmitting and receiving to/from 9 other players….in essence you are transmitting your chess table to 9 people and receiving it from 9 people…where as in most other games it all went to one, and that one transmitted to all players.   

 

My issue, is this was designed as an internet based game…who really was the idiot that weighed everything and thought we will be most demanding on the item people have the least control over of their personal equipment, and we will set the standard above what many in our Demo graphic have.

 

In essence poor choices where made regarding network design of the game (obviously) probably because of major concern with cheating or people seeing animations and particles incoherently. For example, my taking damage before the bolt of power or arrow or whatever strikes me.

The other choice seems to be in order to eliminate Lag as the culprit for deaths.  

Ultimately, I think poor testing was done on this sphere, or simple the choice that lag kills, making it near impossible to cheat and true time eye candy where more of a threat to the game then mass applicability.

 

Solution to that??? Who knows, I just seem to remember games that may have had nearly the number of units and while there where problems, they where playable…as it stands I am waiting an amount of time that is anyone’s guess, had to make some archaic modifications to my router, to play a really fun game, that I might get kicked out of…or not be able to play based on something I probably can not change like ISP.

 

I would recommend that they lighten up on the verification passes or some such….but it is probably too late for that. All I hope is that this is a learning experience for Gas Powered Games…great concepts marred by poor execution in very important places.

 

June 4, 2009 10:53:07 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I ocudl have DSL 1600 now i have 6000 i need to wait a half year because the Vertrag is still am laufen

 

[URL=http://www.speedtest.net][/URL]

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