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Demigod: Tuesday, May 19th

By on May 19, 2009 12:55:08 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

We were able to get the updated network update out yesterday and we turned the Pantheon and Skirmish to try to do 3 on 3 matches. balcony-officeSince so many people seem anti-bot, we are looking for ways to make that happen but the problem is, if people insist on human only then we need to provide more feedback to the user. We already get complaints from people saying it takes “too long” to get into a skirmish game (a whopping 2 minutes).  So for people who insist on human only, we need ways to make them aware that the system is working but it might take several minutes.

Skirmish and Pantheon games aren’t just about finding some random group to have you play against. It uses your ELO (experience) rating to help match along with your location to try to put together the best match possible.

One of our frustrations (and this is one of the reasons I’m not a fan of MP games in the first place) is how inconsiderate some people are.  We spent a lot of time trying to figure out why people were getting “disconnected” right when a game starts.  Well, it turns out, from looking at the logs, is that some people, having only 2 on 2 or 3 vs. 3 where an AI player had to be substituted to fill in the gap that some people just quit right at the start.  I understand the rationale but it’s still objectifying other people’s time. I won’t debate people on the issue as I think it’s a matter of agreeing to disagree.

But bottom line is that if people want to have an idealized match, it’s likely going to take more than 2 minutes and the only way to make it take more than 2 minutes is to provide more feedback so that’s what the team is working on today.

Proxy tomorrow

So besides having more feedback telling you how many people are looking for games which lets us increase the time to find an ideal match, we also plan to have tomorrow’s update have the proxy server. This should eliminate the last problems for connectivity except for the case where people have multiple IP addresses which is still being worked on.

More info please

Some people have said “I used to be able to connect fine, now I can’t.”  We really  need data from those people in the form of their impulsereactor.log files (located in my documents\my games\gpg\demigod) which you can send to support@stardock.com with (ideally) a description of what happened and whether you used to be able to connect so we can see.  At this point, people shouldn’t be having any problems connecting other than those with router issues.

The Documentary

Once we concluded that we were going to have to write our own multiplayer system for Demigod and that it would have to be done not in a matter of months but a matter of days or a week or two we knew that crazy hours were going to be involved. So we video’d it.  We hope to release in the next week or so a documentary video so you can see the innards of Stardock and what was involved.

Here are some images from it:

 

image
Marketing meeting

 

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Management meeting in late April when it was decided to assign the Impulse team to develop a new system.

image 
My daughter Ashley visits me at work

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Our chief architect, Jeff Bargmann and his Impulse team merges with the Elemental development leads to create a new network system.  The application team had already gotten somewhat involved by creating the “Impulse Overlay” that allowed us to inject new screens into Demigod.

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Elemental team can’t resist but show off what they’re doing.

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Found a baby turtle while taking a walk outside

+912 Karma | 116 Replies
May 19, 2009 8:07:19 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Istari,

Quoting Dead Ghost, reply 7You plan somewhere in the future to make Demigod a client/server game, or is just for Elemental? If yes, how much time we will have to wait? One year or more?

 
Just Elemental.  We don't develop Demigod so we don't really have a say there. Plus, Demigod's p2p system lowers latency.

I don't get it. I though that Demigod's net code was developed by Stardock and you are responsible for it. All this fixes and patches about connectivity, they all come from Stardock, we know this from Brad and his journals. So...i don't know what to think anymore.

P2p is pain these days. If you have a crappy connection and have high ping to the host, at least you didn't lag the game for everyone or slow it down because you have a crappy PC. Not to mention all the p2p connectivity issues, when players cannot connect to others.

 

 

May 19, 2009 8:24:45 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Someone else has showed this before, but heck it's fun to throw in:

A quote from Blizzard's FAQ on Warcraft III:

Does Warcraft III have a Client/Server Model?
No. Due to the amount of units and the number of players in a game of Warcraft III, it is not possible to implement a straight Client/Server architecture as in Diablo II. We are using a variation of the peer-to-peer model that allows us to eliminate some of the abuses found in StarCraft games.

 

May 19, 2009 8:48:20 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Frogboy,

 

I think its ridiculous of you to expect a player to be satisfied with a 2 human vs. 1 human + 1 AI matchup. its not fun for any of the 3 humans involved. the team of 2 will easily farm money and exp from the AI and gain an insurmountable lead. for the team of 2 this isn't much more fun than a comp stomp. for the poor bastard who got stuck with a Bot for a partner it feels like being used as a human golf-tee. 

 

quiting at the outset of a game of 2v1+bot is not inconsiderate. it is rational behavior. it saves all 3 humans time. its not objectifying other people's time at all. you need to acknowledge that players seek a particular game experience and not just any old match will do. if this is really your attitude then you have a major attitude adjustment to make in terms of understanding the mindset of multiplayer gamers. 

 

I say this will all due respect, because I greatly admire the overall manner in which Stardock interacts with their customers. However, what you have said in this latest post seems to reveal a gigantic blindspot in your understanding multiplayer. Please educate yourself. 

May 19, 2009 9:18:26 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting baalz,
...  I've even got no real objection to even numbers of AI on both teams ...

 

I want to voice my agreement with this point of view.  I guess I'm in the minority, but I've had fun games that included AIs when both teams had them.  What bothers me is when things aren't balanced out, since it tends to mean losing in a really frustrating and un-fun way.

May 19, 2009 9:24:54 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I much prefer an AI ally to no ally at all.  I played a game earlier today where I was facing 2 human opponents without any backup (and both of them were Regulus). I barely kept the score respectable.

If I'd had an AI buddy, there's a chance I might have even won the game.  I'm still not sure how I was left stranded like that.

May 19, 2009 9:37:31 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I've won a game paired with an AI against 2 human players. That being said, if I had the option to turn off AI players, even if it took twice as long to find a game, I would do it. Especially if it keeps people from quitting at game start. Give players the options they want: no AI, team size (2v2, 3v3, 4v4, 5v5), etc., and let them see how many players are looking for the same game type as them.

Also, are the game options really random ?? Because that seems like a HORRIBLE design decision. Especially since you can't even tell what the options were set to! People who play competitive games seriously ALWAYS use standard options. Not doing so would be like randomizing the distance of a 3-point shot in every basketball game. Don't do that.

May 19, 2009 9:39:36 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Istari,


Quoting Dead Ghost,
reply 7
You plan somewhere in the future to make Demigod a client/server game, or is just for Elemental? If yes, how much time we will have to wait? One year or more?


Just Elemental.  We don't develop Demigod so we don't really have a say there. Plus, Demigod's p2p system lowers latency.

Ouch.

May 19, 2009 10:31:20 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting transitive,

quiting at the outset of a game of 2v1+bot is not inconsiderate. it is rational behavior. it saves all 3 humans time. its not objectifying other people's time at all. you need to acknowledge that players seek a particular game experience and not just any old match will do. if this is really your attitude then you have a major attitude adjustment to make in terms of understanding the mindset of multiplayer gamers.

I say this will all due respect, because I greatly admire the overall manner in which Stardock interacts with their customers. However, what you have said in this latest post seems to reveal a gigantic blindspot in your understanding multiplayer. Please educate yourself.

 

This. Plus it's said in far less inflamatory language than mine would have been. Thanks Transsitive.

May 19, 2009 10:39:55 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting transitive,

I say this will all due respect, because I greatly admire the overall manner in which Stardock interacts with their customers. However, what you have said in this latest post seems to reveal a gigantic blindspot in your understanding multiplayer. Please educate yourself. 



QFT.

I very nearly gasped when I read the offending paragraphs in Frogboy's OP. He's working on a game of a genre he's just shown he fundamentally does not understand.

I respect him a lot, but this post from him really made me second guess mys resolve in holding out hopes that this game will eventually shape up. If many of the people in control of its development fail to grasp what their game is about in this way, then chances are, the game won't shape up. It will shape down.

Sorry FB.

May 19, 2009 10:56:15 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

  1. Skirmish and Pantheon games only allow you to enter solo, this is not conducive to playing with friends. So in effect this lowers the number of people who play them and adds to the problem.
  2. As the publisher it should be your goal to try to obtain more users -- granted something that is impossible to do while your busy fixing basic connectivity/functionality. 
  3. When trying to form a match it should always be successful.  It should never come back and tell the user, error can't match you.  It should after X amount of time ask if you want to keep searching or quit.  In doing so, you can also prevent people from leaving mid search (and force them to spend Y amount of time searching).  DoW2 does this.
I really wish people knew the difference between a publisher and a developer.
I can ask for all the features you request.  But that's all I can do - ask.
As much as I'm willing to fall on the sword for all of you, I think people give me and Stardock magical powers we simply don't have.
We are the publisher - think Random House.  GPG is the developer (author) - think Stephen King.
Don't confuse online presence with online power.  In many cases, I'm the messenger.
We will certainly pass these and other ideas along.  
May 19, 2009 11:09:32 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Frogboy,





Skirmish and Pantheon games only allow you to enter solo, this is not conducive to playing with friends. So in effect this lowers the number of people who play them and adds to the problem.

As the publisher it should be your goal to try to obtain more users -- granted something that is impossible to do while your busy fixing basic connectivity/functionality. 

When trying to form a match it should always be successful.  It should never come back and tell the user, error can't match you.  It should after X amount of time ask if you want to keep searching or quit.  In doing so, you can also prevent people from leaving mid search (and force them to spend Y amount of time searching).  DoW2 does this.

I really wish people knew the difference between a publisher and a developer.

I can ask for all the features you request.  But that's all I can do - ask.

As much as I'm willing to fall on the sword for all of you, I think people give me and Stardock magical powers we simply don't have.

We are the publisher - think Random House.  GPG is the developer (author) - think Stephen King.

Don't confuse online presence with online power.  In many cases, I'm the messenger.

We will certainly pass these and other ideas along.  

 

It's a known fact that you and the people of Stardock actually come from the planet Krypton and the light from our yellow sun fuels your powers. These include but are not limited to superhuman strength, speed, stamina, durability, senses, intelligence, regeneration, and longevity; super breath, heat vision, x-ray vision and flight.

May 19, 2009 11:09:45 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I very nearly gasped when I read the offending paragraphs in Frogboy's OP. He's working on a game of a genre he's just shown he fundamentally does not understand.

As a former finalists in PGL (professional gamer's league) and the top ranked player on Boneyards (for Total Annihilation) I think I do have some understanding of the genre.

Perhaps I should clarify what I am saying: People should at least tell others that they are quitting and why instead of simply exiting because by doing so, it gives the impression that there's some bug in the game.

As to why pantheon and skirmish have had to substitute AI players, there's reasons for that that I cannot easily go into except to say that as the publisher, we have limited capabilities over what UI's the game shows (our overlay can inject messages and we've tried to add more but there's only so much we can do).

Gas Powered Games is working to make sure the MP experience is better I can assure you of that.  But up till now, we've been stuck between a rock and a hard place on the match making.  Make people wait too long and they complain it doesn't work. Don't have it wait long enough and you end up having to have bots. It's a no win.

I don't get it. I though that Demigod's net code was developed by Stardock and you are responsible for it. All this fixes and patches about connectivity, they all come from Stardock, we know this from Brad and his journals. So...i don't know what to think anymore.

P2p is pain these days. If you have a crappy connection and have high ping to the host, at least you didn't lag the game for everyone or slow it down because you have a crappy PC. Not to mention all the p2p connectivity issues, when players cannot connect to others.

No.  Demigod's net code was not developed by Stardock. It was developed by Gas Powered Games.  We initially licensed a third party library to handle the initial NAT connection between players (similar to what GPGNet provideD) and then, finding it didn't scale wrote a new one over the last 2 weeks.  But once you're in that lobby (or in that game) we're not involved.

As for P2P - which RTS's do you know of that aren't P2P? Can you name any?  Dawn of War 2 is P2P. SupCom is P2P. Company of Heroes is P2P.  C&C is P2P.

The only one that isn't pure P2P is battle.net and that is only because it was developed over a long long period of time where it's a hybrid of many things (it's mostly P2P, part client server, part client/host).  Obviously Battle.net is the best system out there but it's not exactly licenseable.

But in a game like Demigod, if you don't have the players synced up, which is really what you're talking about, you would have to have cases where you think you hit a player but you really didn't because that guy was lagging and thought it was somewhere else.  Forget whether it's P2P or not, it's a question of whether it's synced or not.  If all sides are synced then it's the same thing on all sides.

Now, it's probably not how I would have done it.  I would probably have done it client/server where when you press a command it's not acknowledged until it reaches the host.  But p2p works extremely well for most games and there's a reason why most RTS's are P2P.

May 19, 2009 11:13:59 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Will the baby turtle be downloadable? I'd like one.

 

On the other hand, my kitten might terrorize it

May 19, 2009 11:18:22 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

When will the "feature" of 5v5 be implimented. Dota 3v3 sucks, and demigod 3v3 sucks. 

May 19, 2009 11:44:04 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

But p2p works extremely well for most games and there's a reason why most RTS's are P2P.

My understanding - and experience with RTS - are obviously limited. But I'm curious - did/does Dawn of War 2, SupCom, Company of Heroes  and/or C&C - have the kind the connection problems / complexities which Demigod is currently facing ?

Demigod is my first RTS (I have not played Dawn of War etc) and I was/am completely unprepared for the connection issues that I'm facing (spending several nights reading up on port forwarding is not exactly my idea of fun ).

 

May 19, 2009 11:45:00 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

It's a known fact that you and the people of Stardock actually come from the planet Krypton and the light from our yellow sun fuels your powers. These include but are not limited to superhuman strength, speed, stamina, durability, senses, intelligence, regeneration, and longevity; super breath, heat vision, x-ray vision and flight.

LOL.

Well I can assure you that Gas Powered Games does read these forums as much as we do. They are hard at work adding new features and enhancing game play for Demigod.

The same problem happened with Sins of a Solar Empire.  Stardock didn't develop Sins of a Solar Empire. We published it. We were heavily involved in its design and such but we don't code it.  But people would give us credit or blame for some feature or lack of feature.

Demigod's awesomness is because of the hard work of people at Gas Powered Games in terms of their 3D modeling, their art, game mechanics, animation, awesome 3D engine, etc.

But similarly, a lot of the things people want in Demigod are things that only GPG can add and they are watching and taking note of what things they can and can't realistically add in a free update.

Similarly, the Stardock team has looked at what it can add via Impulse Reactor.  But as a practical matter, we can only add features that make sense in all online games, not just Demigod.   

May 19, 2009 11:47:36 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Im sick of hearing about rage quitters...Get over it already

Not because they caust issues, Just because...its like every thread in the whole forum wants to punish them in some grand inquisition because they are ruining everyones lives...hardly..

May 19, 2009 11:51:41 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

It's a known fact that you and the people of Stardock actually come from the planet Krypton and the light from our yellow sun fuels your powers. These include but are not limited to superhuman strength, speed, stamina, durability, senses, intelligence, regeneration, and longevity; super breath, heat vision, x-ray vision and flight.


LOL.

Well I can assure you that Gas Powered Games does read these forums as much as we do. They are hard at work adding new features and enhancing game play for Demigod.

The same problem happened with Sins of a Solar Empire.  Stardock didn't develop Sins of a Solar Empire. We published it. We were heavily involved in its design and such but we don't code it.  But people would give us credit or blame for some feature or lack of feature.

Demigod's awesomness is because of the hard work of people at Gas Powered Games in terms of their 3D modeling, their art, game mechanics, animation, awesome 3D engine, etc.

But similarly, a lot of the things people want in Demigod are things that only GPG can add and they are watching and taking note of what things they can and can't realistically add in a free update.

Similarly, the Stardock team has looked at what it can add via Impulse Reactor.  But as a practical matter, we can only add features that make sense in all online games, not just Demigod.   

When something is loading can we have an image of a frog hoping on a progress bar?

May 20, 2009 12:39:25 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Good stuff. It is always nice to see these "behind the scenes" posts.

May 20, 2009 4:36:23 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Seriously, it could be pretty cool to have some form of turtle-ish demigod. I mean, why not?

I wish I could just go out here in Denmark and stumble over such a cute turtle, it's so sweet

 

Looking forward to the documentary!

May 20, 2009 6:37:29 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Jingseng,
Will the baby turtle be downloadable? I'd like one.

 

I'm pretty sure one of the DGs in the works is a baby-turtle.

May 20, 2009 7:01:16 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Frankly, blaming it on the user population and saying WC3 is 3rd in franchise with millions of users is a weak argument.

What do you think I'm telling my friends right now following your answer?

"No, don't come, not enough people to get you a match going in less than 5min". And most likely answer "Ouch, sucks, used to be able to play in 30s on WC3".

Again, people don't care about your excuses. They don't give a crap if you have technical problems or low user base. They want to click and have a game in less than a minute. I know it, you know it. You can't change people mindset.

I really hope all the problems are mostly behind us and the European release will add thousands of players, but something tells me even then you won't get a match going in less than a minute.

The matchmaking is terrible, it needs fixing and improvments, it's a fact and we know you are working on it, but again, little joe in his home does not care, he wants to play correctly now, not tomorrow.

 

May 20, 2009 7:50:31 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

As for P2P - which RTS's do you know of that aren't P2P? Can you name any?  Dawn of War 2 is P2P. SupCom is P2P. Company of Heroes is P2P.  C&C is P2P.

Ok, but correct me if i'm wrong, but in all the games you mention, the maximum player limit is 8. In demigod they are 10 maximum, and maybe that is the limit for p2p.

I didn't play any of those games (i'm not into pure rts games), but i really don't remember any of those games having the major problems that Demigod had and still has some. At least no online gaming sites reported it, like they did with Demigod.

May 20, 2009 7:56:04 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting RamzaBehoulve,
Frankly, blaming it on the user population and saying WC3 is 3rd in franchise with millions of users is a weak argument.

What do you think I'm telling my friends right now following your answer?

"No, don't come, not enough people to get you a match going in less than 5min". And most likely answer "Ouch, sucks, used to be able to play in 30s on WC3".

Again, people don't care about your excuses. They don't give a crap if you have technical problems or low user base. They want to click and have a game in less than a minute. I know it, you know it. You can't change people mindset.

I really hope all the problems are mostly behind us and the European release will add thousands of players, but something tells me even then you won't get a match going in less than a minute.

The matchmaking is terrible, it needs fixing and improvments, it's a fact and we know you are working on it, but again, little joe in his home does not care, he wants to play correctly now, not tomorrow.

 

I somewhat agree but the latest updates of the past week make the matchmaking pretty decent.  Also, you can't expect any company to compare to Blizzard.  That's like asking a ball player to hit as many homeruns as sammy sosa on steroids.  

May 20, 2009 8:19:43 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Tidus1492,

I somewhat agree but the latest updates of the past week make the matchmaking pretty decent.  Also, you can't expect any company to compare to Blizzard.  That's like asking a ball player to hit as many homeruns as sammy sosa on steroids.  

So just because Blizzard is that much better, they can't be used as comparison? Kind of a flawed logic if you ask me.

Demigod is in direct competition with Blizzard and its upcoming Stracraft 2. GPG and Stardock were lucky Blizzard only announced Beta for SC2 instead of a release date, otherwise we all know what would have happened.

If you want to make a RTS or a MMORPG, you go in direct competition with Blizzard and that's whom you'll be compared to.

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