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Restorative Scroll & UB Vemon Spit

By on May 14, 2009 11:53:04 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

   So far, there is has always been a questionable uproar about the Unclean Beast. His spit is a very nasty poison, and while most real players can handle it, the AI simply can not. I didn't care to play out a few AI rich Pantheon Games where I was teamed up against a UB because the 3 DoT Build is very effective against AI. But, one thing I figured that would resolve some issues with the UB's spit is that it is ultimately, a negative effect. It's a DoT, a Damage Over Time poison ability. So naturally, you'd think a player would have the option to purchase an item, which would render the attack useless. But no such item exists, or does it? In fact there is an item called the Restorative Scroll, but it only removed negative effects from your army, and not you.

  • Restorative Scroll
  • Cost: 250
  • 0.3sec Cast -- Cooldown 20 seconds 
  • Use: Any negative effects on your army are removed. The Demigod is not effected.

 

  What exact use does this item really have? I've really used it until I decided to play against the forced of Darkness in Pantheon when I ran into a lot of Lord Erebus and Unclean Beast players - both which use some very lethal Negative Effects. But my question is simple, why not allow the scroll to effect Demigods? If I want to purchase a scroll which renders me amune to the Unclean Beast + Cooldown Reduction + Venom Spit repeater cannon, then I should have that option. I can only carry a limited amount of scrolls at one time, so it's be my choice on when I should use them and how.

   Personally, I'd rather invest in a Restorative Scroll rather than a Heal Potion, because A) It's cheaper and I won't take very much damage from venom spits if I have scrolls on me. It'd make the Unclean Beast more approachable, and many demigods wouldn't be forced to fall back due to being overwhelmed by the DoT stack.

 

+70 Karma | 36 Replies
May 14, 2009 12:03:45 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I played a match as minion oak the other night and just as I though TB was going down..  he flash-froze my entire group, creeps and all, and walked out.  Would have been useful there...but I didn't have one on me.

May 14, 2009 12:11:07 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

It would make demigod's nigh unkillable and be counter productive.  It wouldn't change UB's approachableness, (is that a word?) because spit recharges in about 4 seconds.  However, you could run away a lot easier, making UB very underpowered by this.  (Might as well call it a UB nerf scroll eh?)

However, other demigods rely on negative affects to kill other demigods.  Oak comes to mind right off the bat with pentanence, as does Erebus.  Demigods rely on negative effects to kill others, and taking them away would mean a ton of games would be dummed down to basically no demigod kills.  Oak, UB, and Erebus at least would be hit with very large and spiked nerf bat and make them get killed a lot easier and have a lot more trouble killing when it comes to other demigods.

And Mauxe brings up a very good example as to why they work as is with only armies.

May 14, 2009 12:15:34 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Consider Oak and Lord Erebus are very, very power with their Negative Effects so. I don't see any harm in allowing players to buy a scroll if they like. You can't carry an unlimited amout of Scrolls, a max 9 if you use all of your slots, and that will cost a player a healthy 2250 gold. I feel if I want to invest in a scroll which allows me to endure an attack in toe-to-toe combat, then I should be able to. Afterall, the Demigod gets the ability for free, the fact that I have to pay to counter it really shouldn't be a big issue.

May 14, 2009 12:27:01 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

For free?  They use skill points to get them my friend.  And if your scroll makes that skill worthless in 1 to 1 combat then they wasted a ton of time in a skill tree that is now worthless and does nothing for their well being.  The important thing to realize with negative effects is that is literally how some demigods kill, taking it away means taking away the demigod's ability to kill.  There's a definate weakness to each demigod, for instance if you're having trouble with spit go for + health and health regain equipment.  Once you get about 4k health (you can go up 6k with the same items as rook) spit will never bother you again to the point where you can easily win 1 vs 1.  Also, you complained about AI being bad against spit, there's no guaratee that the AI will be smart enough to buy the scrolls as well.  It would be an all demigod nerf making games have basically no demigod kills until the end.

Rook:  People could easily get out of boulder roll, something which rook relies on to kill people.

Erebus, Oak, and UB: Already mentioned.

Regulus:  People could get out of his increased damage debuff.  (Forgot what it's called)

Queen of Thorns:  Also has a critical debuff for killing that would no longer work.

TB and Sedna would be barely affected.

May 14, 2009 12:58:39 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Thrandiul,
TB and Sedna would be barely affected.

Well, Sedna might not be, but this item would impact a TB as you could remove the effects before the TB uses shatter (which consumes those negative effects).

 

Although, I had thought that this item worked on the Demigod as well as their minions... at least, that was how I interpreted "your army." If it doesn't work on the Demigod themselves, then it's a pretty useless item and it should work like the favor item that removes negative effects.

UB spit wouldn't become worthless due to this item. It would force the opponent to spend money on the scrolls to counter an ability that can be used every seven seconds. Not to mention that it could just as easily be given a 30 second cooldown, like teleport scrolls; it could even be given a cast time.

May 14, 2009 1:00:52 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

   Thrandiul, I'm certain you mean to be posing a counter argument but your comments only further support why I feel we should have the Scroll effect Demigods. As long as I've played this game, I've desired to have an item to heal negative effects for the list of reasons you just provided. If I want to spend money on that, then should have every right to. Not everyone will play the same way, and not everyone will be packing a lot of scrolls either. Using the 1 vs 1 stance doesn't hold much merit, as many games are 2v2 and 3v3 at the very least. If I want to use a Scroll to survive an attack to get in a better stance with a nearby allie, I should have that option.

   There are periods where I've even encountered the flaw of negative effects. In a 4v4 game on Exile for instance, my team was pushed back all the way to the base because one of our allies quit and turned into farmable AI. We could have pushed out and done well on our own, but we kept getting killed by tons of multiple stacked negative effects. Sure that is a great tactic, but it pains me to see that there is absolutely no way to avoid this. Even with All Father Ring and various Artifacts, fighting several multple negative effects is a no win situation. There really should be a way, because a good strat game should not employ no win sitations of that magnitude.

May 14, 2009 1:06:22 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Poor ice TB. Shatter is already bad now, what about when they let us "remove negative effects" after he has done rain/etc and before they shatter? Hehe...

 

-Drexion/Ragarth

May 14, 2009 1:25:27 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Symbol of purity.

May 14, 2009 1:26:05 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Tactially, I probably wouldn't remove TB's Shatter if it was just that. I'd be a waste of a scroll.

Alsoo.... To be frank, I feel the Symbol of Purity is a pretty useless favor item, and something I would I've wasted a slot using it. Often, you don't know what type of build you're facing for quite a while. The argument is about a purchaseable item, we already know of the existance of a favor item. So you're not adding to the discussion, merely stating what we all already know.

 

Achievement: Favor Item 

Symbol of Purity 

Cost: 560 points

Use: Instant ----- Cool Down 30 Seconds

Use: Purges all negative effects. Cannot use while stunned or frozen.

Additional Effect: +250 Health

 

 

May 14, 2009 1:53:16 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Choose your favor item after you see the build then.  People pick their doctrines in Company of Heroes a long ways into the game because they don't know from the start which will be most useful against the opponent's strategy.

May 14, 2009 2:04:52 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

   Ah but a common choice for the 3 DoT Build is the Staff of Renual, which is a Favor Item. So I shouldn't pick a favor item that'd compliment my build, just because I sometimes want to counter a spit. Oh yeah, that makes perfect sense.... yes, that was sarcasm. Still doesn't address why we have such a useless 250 scroll sitting in the Mutli-Shop.

 

May 14, 2009 2:18:10 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

You want a counter to UB's venom? How about a combat health potion? Really people are making a huge fuss about an ability, that while CAN get you some kills, is just like all other abilities. If you can't counter EVERY ability a Demigod has, then you shouldn't be able to have a specific item to remove the abilities of a select few DGs.

May 14, 2009 2:20:14 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I had seen that scroll and even suggested someone use it to counter spit in an old thread. Agreed that its effect as is means they may as well change the description to 'Ooooo shiny....'

I know when I see two beasts against me in panth/skirmish the SoP is a given. If you take it, the beast can't do crap early game and later game if he's continued the spit line, you're saving yourself from 1K+ dmg every 30 seconds so long as you play it right and don't let him spit you while you're still cooling down (make sure he wastes that mana).

Two favor item slots would be cool... it would also add depth.

 

May 14, 2009 3:33:01 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I've always wanted a scroll that made me invincible and gives an aura that kills any demigod within 20 yds for 2 hours... doesn't mean they should make one.

May 14, 2009 4:34:22 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

What it comes down to is that Spit is UB's Main skill attack just like every other demigod they have at least one main damage ability to use against other demigods.  UB's (if I remember correctly) is the only one that is a DoT.  The other DGs have direct dmg skills for this purpose (e.g. Reg's Snipershot, TB's fireball/rain of ice, Rook's Hammer, and so on and so forth).  If UB's spit is what you think the problem is you shouldn't be asking for a counter to it since it is that DG's main attack against other Demigods.  To make an item that negates Spit you'd have to make sure an item that is balanced which would mean you'd have to make an item that negates every other DG's main skill attack. 

Of course that option would be pointless because everyone would buy that item and everyone would use it to negate the other DGs main attack.  So you'd have fights where both DGs would negate each other's main attack once per cooldown (30sec or so).  That doesn't make the game more balanced and definitely doesn't make it fun.

As far as the AI being fodder for UB, well let's be real here the AI is fodder for any other player DG out there too.  UB doesn't have some cornered market on being about to kill an AI opponent.  Any decent player will kill the AI with any DG they are playing.  To effectively address the AI issue many things can be done; none I will go into here because I don't feel like it and I'm sure the argument has been made many times.

As was previously mentioned by someone else who is to say the AI would even use that item to save themselves from UB's spit?

If you don't like Spit as a player well then as mentioned in this thread as well; use Symbol or Purity or find another strategy to use against it.  I assume your main problem with Spit is that it is a DoT and when you run it is still there ticking away on you while UB is safe away from the towers you are trying to lure him too.  Fair enough.  I play UB mainly and so I'm sure that is really annoying for the people I'm playing against.  You can also run or port back to your Health Crystal; it will wipe the dot off.  Which believe me is great especially since that crystal certainly doesn't protect me from the Snipershot flying towards even though I'm well out of it's firing range.  Same with TB's fireball but that is less annoying because I don't think it actually hits or it takes so long to get to the person by that time they are mostly healed anyways.

Ultimately, the most balanced option I could see and what you probably want is Spit to be changed from a DoT to Direct Dmg and it's damage brought in line to a direct dmg skill.

RC

May 14, 2009 4:55:30 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OrleanKnight,
   Thrandiul, I'm certain you mean to be posing a counter argument but your comments only further support why I feel we should have the Scroll effect Demigods. As long as I've played this game, I've desired to have an item to heal negative effects for the list of reasons you just provided. If I want to spend money on that, then should have every right to. Not everyone will play the same way, and not everyone will be packing a lot of scrolls either. Using the 1 vs 1 stance doesn't hold much merit, as many games are 2v2 and 3v3 at the very least. If I want to use a Scroll to survive an attack to get in a better stance with a nearby allie, I should have that option.

   There are periods where I've even encountered the flaw of negative effects. In a 4v4 game on Exile for instance, my team was pushed back all the way to the base because one of our allies quit and turned into farmable AI. We could have pushed out and done well on our own, but we kept getting killed by tons of multiple stacked negative effects. Sure that is a great tactic, but it pains me to see that there is absolutely no way to avoid this. Even with All Father Ring and various Artifacts, fighting several multple negative effects is a no win situation. There really should be a way, because a good strat game should not employ no win sitations of that magnitude.

How else will demigods kill you if they can't use negative effects?  If all everyone has suggested REALLY doesn't help you against an attack that greatly helps... dare I say is needed for a good UB build then the least you can do is simply go get flags away from UB.  And it doesn't matter what demigods you are going against, any AI is farmable AI, they're just dumb that way.  It sounds like the bread and butter of your suggestion should really be to have an option to do away with AI completely.  You might use it to negate a 7 second recharge time (a lot less with my strat) spit, but it won't help you in the end when every demigod uses it to escape whatever demigod you are using. 

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but another thing a good strat game doesn't need is an item that everyone HAS to buy.  Even the heart of life isn't bought by every single demigod, yet every demigod will always carry these scrolls to easily escape assasinations, it's no use saying that everyone wouldn't have these items if they functioned as you suggest.

May 14, 2009 4:55:49 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting av8rcrowdog,

Ultimately, the most balanced option I could see and what you probably want is Spit to be changed from a DoT to Direct Dmg and it's damage brought in line to a direct dmg skill.

Hope that never happens.. lets actually have variety of different attacks.

May 14, 2009 5:08:07 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Potions counter spit by healing the damage. Apparently players who primarily play other Demigods feel entitled to getting cheap potion replacements against UB just because. This is absolutely ridiculous. You don't get to completely disable a specific Demigod's best ability for pocket change in a balanced game. There's already an favor item which, while it does have a real oppurtunity cost to take it, is too good against UB. And that's precisely why people don't want to use it. Because they want to win for free.

May 14, 2009 5:17:24 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

What's interesting to me is that MOTB (Mark of the Bretayer, a Regulus ability) isn't cancelled out by the scroll. Isn't MOTB a negative buff?

May 14, 2009 5:40:12 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Xinoxlx,

Hope that never happens.. lets actually have variety of different attacks.

I agree with you.  I like the fact that the DGs have a fairly decent variety of skills.  Sure most have the same type of stuff at the core but they all seem to have their own spin. 

However, and correct me if I wrong but UB is the only one with a DoTs that stick to their target.  I think players are viewing it as an unfair advantage because it is hard to gauge the dmg they are soaking.  All the other DG's main skills are off loaded as direct dmg so when you get hit for 1k+ dmg it creates a shock value to the player being hit with it which they can then accurately judge when to run or not.  UB's DoT just sneaks up on people. lol.  Which I like.

I think UB gets a bad rep mostly because the average player can be dangerous with him but a really good player is down right deadly.  Don't get me wrong other DGs in the hands of a skilled player can be extremely deadly too but some of them are much harder to play for the average person.  A well played Rook is the bane of my existence and a really good Reg is as annoying as it comes when I play UB.  But like with all DGs in the game it is all in how you play.  I haven't run into a problem yet that I couldn't overcome with proper adaptation.

RC

May 14, 2009 6:22:27 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

   Ah but a common choice for the 3 DoT Build is the Staff of Renual, which is a Favor Item. So I shouldn't pick a favor item that'd compliment my build, just because I sometimes want to counter a spit. Oh yeah, that makes perfect sense.... yes, that was sarcasm. Still doesn't address why we have such a useless 250 scroll sitting in the Mutli-Shop.

It does make perfect sense.  Games are all about making hard decisions.  If there aren't any of these, it's not much of a game.  Some games also emphasize coordination, but they're still nothing without the choices(this is why the point and click genre isn't huge).  Choosing between using your favor item to enhance your own build or to counter your enemy's build is one of these decisions and the fact that it is adds depth to the game(or at least would if everyone had all favor items unlocked).  If you don't want to be confronted with decisions like this, you're free to go to one of the many websites with collections of various browser based games and play one of the thousands of whack-a-mole clones out there.

 

There are a lot of useless items in the shop and they need to be balanced, but turning the restorative scroll into an "I'm immune to status effects" button would just make status effects a pointless game mechanic because they'd be countered very easily.  It would need to be more in the 500 gold range if it had that kind of effect.

May 14, 2009 6:55:45 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

At any rate, I think everyone would agree that restorative scroll + a few other consumables are almost completely useless.

Maybe it's good to have some junk and trinkets in there though.

May 14, 2009 7:01:41 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

   No one said that the Restorative Scroll would make people immune to status effects, even suggesting is blowing the suggestion completely out of wack to give more favor to an argument that is straddling saturated earth. There already exists a favor item, so why not a normal item with similiar effects but has a cooldown, cast time, and price based on what would be rational. I'm not asking for a favor item to be purchasable and reuseable as a basic item, and considering that is unfounded. I think of several different possibilities of hos an item like that can work, and not be balance issue.

   Try having an open mind for a change and don't think everyone is just trying to 'win'. Allowing an item for a fair price, can take away negative effects if purchased, and has a high cooldown and possibily even a demishing effect. Personally, I'd love to take a huge hit to my damage out put or something else if I could slap the scroll on me to run away from a fight with poison me and survive by taking it off when in a safe location. Why would people be so resistant to that idea, or do they just tend to be in favor of getting any possibile sliver of a chance they can to scrape off a Demigod kill without real effort? Who exactly is the one proposing a sound idea? I'm not hearing any alternatives, just very pour counter arguments.

May 14, 2009 7:22:11 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OrleanKnight,
   No one said that the Restorative Scroll would make people immune to status effects, even suggesting is blowing the suggestion completely out of wack to give more favor to an argument that is straddling saturated earth. There already exists a favor item, so why not a normal item with similiar effects but has a cooldown, cast time, and price based on what would be rational. I'm not asking for a favor item to be purchasable and reuseable as a basic item, and considering that is unfounded. I think of several different possibilities of hos an item like that can work, and not be balance issue.

   Try having an open mind for a change and don't think everyone is just trying to 'win'. Allowing an item for a fair price, can take away negative effects if purchased, and has a high cooldown and possibily even a demishing effect. Personally, I'd love to take a huge hit to my damage out put or something else if I could slap the scroll on me to run away from a fight with poison me and survive by taking it off when in a safe location. Why would people be so resistant to that idea, or do they just tend to be in favor of getting any possibile sliver of a chance they can to scrape off a Demigod kill without real effort? Who exactly is the one proposing a sound idea? I'm not hearing any alternatives, just very pour counter arguments.

Well explain to us why you think it should be changed, when the game already has several counters to debuffs. For 275 gold you can get a small health potion which counters spit in most cases. You get a favor item which counters them. QoT, Oak, Erebus, and sedna are all givien abilties to counter them. It just comes off like you just don't want people killing you with debuffs. There's already enough counters to them, why do you want one that would be the nail on the coffin to ever using spit again?

The scroll would need to cost huge amount of gold or damn near kill you if used wrong to justify ANOTHER counter to debuffs.

The other option is leave the scroll and make minions actually good so they're useful.

May 14, 2009 7:24:14 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

May 14, 2009 19:01:41

No one said that the Restorative Scroll would make people immune to status effects, even suggesting is blowing the suggestion completely out of wack to give more favor to an argument that is straddling saturated earth. There already exists a favor item, so why not a normal item with similiar effects but has a cooldown, cast time, and price based on what would be rational. I'm not asking for a favor item to be purchasable and reuseable as a basic item, and considering that is unfounded. I think of several different possibilities of hos an item like that can work, and not be balance issue.

Try having an open mind for a change and don't think everyone is just trying to 'win'. Allowing an item for a fair price, can take away negative effects if purchased, and has a high cooldown and possibily even a demishing effect. Personally, I'd love to take a huge hit to my damage out put or something else if I could slap the scroll on me to run away from a fight with poison me and survive by taking it off when in a safe location. Why would people be so resistant to that idea, or do they just tend to be in favor of getting any possibile sliver of a chance they can to scrape off a Demigod kill without real effort? Who exactly is the one proposing a sound idea? I'm not hearing any alternatives, just very pour counter arguments.

 

Since the main issue is Spit, as it is mentioned the most and in the title, I can present an alternative: Potions. You can cast combat and non-combat potions with Spit on you to prevent a death, or to heal from it after it wears off. The only counter to this is to be stunned or silenced, which I'm guessing you wouldn't want this scroll to ignore, and you do use the words "Safe location," so we can even exclude that from the analysis.

 

I don't see a need to create an item which will disproportionately affect one Demigod. And it's bad game design because damage over time effects are already worse than instant damage effects, all else held equal. Being as damage over time is already less good than instant damage, we shouldn't further dilute it by adding in special DOT only counters. Because if we do that, we would have to buff DOTs to compensate*, making them an all or nothing attack which is terrible for balance.

As Xinoxlx points out, there are already many other counters to it

* You could theoretically argue Venom Spit does too much damage now (I disagree), but if you did, adding it hard counters would still be bad because of the all or nothing effect I mention above.

 

Editted a bit for content.

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