Demigod: Clan Wars concepts

All this pre-made team hooplah is fine and well, as long as it sticks to pre-made vs pre-made. Nothing worse than trying to pull together a bunch of strangers against a pre-made team with established comraderie and tactics.

see coh if anyone has any questions

"Clan Wars"?

Who cares?

Is there really a significant percentage of your customers who are all into "clans"?

clans rly just stand for organized teams

so the question u just asked was does anyone want to be competitve in a competitve multiplayer game?

so lol 2 u kind sir

Can you add something like "Pantheon: Teams" as well, where you can make a team from your friends list and join as team.

I'd like to see variable match sizes. So if just a couple of your clan members are on, you can do a 3v3. If you have enough, 5v5.. Also instead of scheduling a match I'd like to see something similar to WoW's Arena. Where you just log in, form up an arranged team with your clan members and hit 'ready for match' and then get matched up with someone near your skill level to have a match against. Each clan can then have a ladder rating.

Will this micro expansion include the VOIP functionality that has been mentioned in previous journals? I think this is paramount to organising a team in-game. If VOIP isn't coming with Clan Wars, please implement other methods of communicating such as pre-written chat messages bound to keys, or different kinds of - and more eye/ear catching - map pings besides the generic one such as one for attack and one for defend. Coordination is a massive part of any team-based games and this really needs to be expanded upon for this micro expansion, at least in my experience.

Can't wait for it!

Quoting Sheezwack,

reply 5

Can you add something like "Pantheon: Teams" as well, where you can make a team from your friends list and join as team.

Yes, currently in my previous Post (#8) I'm making the assumption that:

Clan = Guild, permanent team -- Arena teams for WoW come to mind.
- Basicly you form up a group/perm team/guild and then invite friends to join said permanent organization.
Teams = Slots in a multiplayer lobby to you fill with friends.
- It's just a place to group up with friends to form a non-permanent team (i.e. a team just for right now).
- Once you have your team you'd play against others in either team skirmish or Pantheon games -- depending on what is desired.

The only thing that clan support does is that it can allow the tracking of stats of a specific teams. For example I have 2 brothers lets say all 3 of us form a clan up and start playing 3v3's. Now instead of just tracking individual stats SD could track Clan/team info as well. But assuming you had a True Skill system like GFWL you'd not need to have clans, you'd just base match making on the true skill of everyone who composes the team at that moment.

Basicly option 2 provides greater flexability to the users/players than option 1 does. Option 2 is more like what other RTS games (Dawn of War 2, Company of Heroes, etc, etc).

While option 1 feels more like WoW arenas and is more restricting, as you get situations where I joined Clan BigBrewHa but none of them are online and I want to play and my friends in Clan SquirlsHaveNuts who are are online, now I have to quit my current clan to go play in another clan. What happens to my clan stats? etc, etc... imo it opens up lots of problems and is too restricting.

Also if you're not doing a GFWL True Skill system you can have a clan that gains a bunch of new players and if you only go by the ranking of said clan when doing match making and not take into account the actual skill of each player you're going to get uneven match ups till the team score catches up to the new players skill.

IMO, my friends list is my clan... and in doing so it has no restrictions.

-Jara

quoting post

In late Summer, we plan to release Demigod: Clan Wars.
So how will it work?
Besides the obvious – creating and joining of clans, the practical meat of Clan Wars is ability to schedule matches. Right now, everything is in real-time. The functionality that Clan Wars will bring in is the ability to schedule matches at specific times and then join in with your friends into that battle at that time.
As it starts to come together, we’ll start to put up screenshots. This will be a free download via Impulse for all registered players.

What is the goal for scheduling matches?

If you're not online my first gut reaction is who cares? When I sit down to play Demigod, just like any other RTS I only really care about playing other people right now, not who I could maybe play if they remember they have an appointment for a game on Tuesday night at 7pm (was that 7pm EST or PST, etc, etc).

The only time scheduled matches would be good is for high level tournament play... Even then I think a system that formed a bracket structure (win/loser bracket -- see any sports games for examples)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elimination_tournament

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-elimination_tournament

Now if scheduled games was a part of something like that (and a no-show would turn into a bi/win for the player who did show) that could allow you to play a tournament over time (1-4 weeks). You would most likely need functionality so that you could reschedule 1-2 times in case something came up.

But imo Demigod games are pretty quick 20-45mins when you know what you're doing a 8 player bracket (16 players @ start) you would have the winners playing a total of 4 games (4*45 = 180 mins or 3 hours).

3 Hours imo is not that long to comit to playing a single sesson (and if you had to leave early you could, you'd just be forfeiting out).

But I suppose 16 players is a fairly small tourament so having the ability to scheuled matches would allow you do do huge tournaments... (64 players, 16 total games for the winner for 720 mins (12 hours) of play or the winners and that's not counting the loser bracket).

So say you where thinking of doing a tournament bracket system, you'd almost need to be able to specify the type live (Sat day tournament that takes 3 hours) or over time (1-4 weeks scheduled matches).

But again, this points to team lobbies being something that should be implimented first, with clans/large scale tournaments and schedualing games coming second.

-Jara

Yeah the problem with clan matches for myself and probably many others is that I don't want/can't be tied down to a schedule like that these days - I just want to be able to jump on and play with whichever of my friends are online. Scheduled matches are probably the last thing on anyones mind at the moment, we all just want to play right now.

Personally I think they could teams going and fix all the multiplayer issues before they even bother looking into scheduled clan matches. Since you can't rejoin this game if you drop, tournaments are pretty pointless until it is all fixed.

In fact for tournaments to ever really be viable you would need at least some of these:

- The ability for the dropped player to rejoin (as others have pointed out this might not be possible with the engine, or if it was the game may need to be paused for a minute or so while the joining player gathers the data)

- The ability for the team to control any A.I players, give them defend/attack locations etc - this way if your team member drops you can at least reduce the other team from exploiting the stupid AE for gold

- Maybe the ability to restart the tournament game, but with certain things saved (tower health, player levels and skills, citadel upgrades). This way when you start the match again both teams start in their base and units start spawning from the portals, so it should be pretty close to where you left off.

- Stable multiplayer, and a stable game

- Longer disconnect times, you should allow significantly longer for the player to reconnect perhaps.

Well Jara, interesting Analysis, but actually uberShade in reply #16 brings up an excellent point.

Custom Games are essentially team lobbies. Especially now that single players should be able to get into skirmish and Pantheon more reliably, the only reason to go to custom games is to play a team game. Which means all your team has to do is look in the custom games list to find another team that wants to play.

I imagine once people start using automatch more, custom games will be most exclusively for Pre-made teams. If you don't have a pre-made team why not play via pantheon where you're at least more likely to get placed on a team with somewhere of your level.

So yes, my position is changed. I think pre-made teams are totally workable via Custom Game in the current version.

SmileyChris: It will never be possible in Demigod to rejoin a match if you drop.

I for one am glad to hear of these changes.

It's a plus that its comming so soon, especially since I would have expected huge content pushback because devs had to deal with connectivity problems.

As for everyone sounding off with their dissatisfaction, and in particular this:

What is the goal for scheduling matches?

If you're not online my first gut reaction is who cares? When I sit down to play Demigod, just like any other RTS I only really care about playing other people right now, not who I could maybe play if they remember they have an appointment for a game on Tuesday night at 7pm (was that 7pm EST or PST, etc, etc).

There is a game that facilitates this. It's DOTA. It's good, but not as good as Demigods. I think it would be a shame if this game, though based on a lot of DOTA's dynamics, tried to follow exactly the same route, including right down to battlenet's set up. Scheduled matches probably aren't interesting for the lone wolf or the player with 2 or 3 buddies who just wants to sit down and play, but luckily for them there's the pantheon, skirmish and custom game which (it sounds like) will soon all support arranged team activity. Scheduled matches could only help to DEEPEN the game community, hopefully spreading rivalry between clans and making tournaments and casual matchups that much more interesting.

Big thumbs up to the dev team from me on this one. Game finally shapping up into a juggernaut of a game and I hope sales jump up with this fact.

I'm gonna post a suggestion in the next message. I know double posting is lame but I don't want it to get mixed in with my counter-whine.

Naz

I deffinetly think that with forth-coming balance changes and the advent of Clan Wars, the dev team should consider implementing random hero selection. I'm contradicting myself a little as I JUST said I would hate to see DemiGod follow DOTA too closely, but I think the option is always interesting (random selection goes back to Street Fighter imo I guess it's really not recognizable as DOTA cloning).

The option could also include a setting for #Assassins #Generals to be allocated to each team. This could keep games fresh, balanced and interesting. It would deffinetly be a higher level of play than arranged games where you have the strat all set up.

Furthermore, in the same vein, I think the arranged team options should by default hide the identity of your opponents heroes in the lobby whether heroes are random or pre-selected.

Either way, keep up the good work devs. Hope this suggestion isn't too over the top.

Naz

Quoting mehoo462,

reply 11

Well Jara, interesting Analysis, but actually uberShade in reply #16 brings up an excellent point.

Custom Games are essentially team lobbies. Especially now that single players should be able to get into skirmish and Pantheon more reliably, the only reason to go to custom games is to play a team game. Which means all your team has to do is look in the custom games list to find another team that wants to play.

I imagine once people start using automatch more, custom games will be most exclusively for Pre-made teams. If you don't have a pre-made team why not play via pantheon where you're at least more likely to get placed on a team with somewhere of your level.

So yes, my position is changed. I think pre-made teams are totally workable via Custom Game in the current version.

While you are partially right that method is also hugely inefficient and has many other problems.

You have many people hosting games and waiting for others to join, while others are doing the same. This results in others waiting for you to join while your team is doing the same.

The biggest factor is there is no automatching based on skill of your opponnets, just pure random luck of who joins your game.

I want to be able to arranged a team and play games and still gain favor or score towards the Pantheon and last I heard, custom games (due to how easy it is to cheat in them Vs all the options/settings against easy AI) won't be giving favor in the near future.

Custom games in my mind is great if you have 10 friends and want to do a 5v5. Or 8 friends and want to do a 4v4, etc, etc.

It's also great for LAN parties but they are not competitive in any way due to the factors above and are not conducive to internet play and efficient matching.

-Jara

Also i think that Demigod needs to have a replay system, so you can view matches from every player's view, fast farward, see what items players got, etc. This imo needs to be done before the Clan Wars thing. Every competitive game out there has a replay system...Auto-matching too. Not to mention needed UI tweaks, more informative ability and units descriptions (type of dmg, how much dmg -> for example rook's towers), etc....Oh boy, there is much to be done with Demigod in order to be a true competitive game. Clan Wars isn't needed right now and imo, the time spent with it could be used for more important issues.

Quoting Dead Ghost,

reply 16

Also i think that Demigod needs to have a replay system, so you can view matches from every player's view, fast farward, see what items players got, etc. This imo needs to be done before the Clan Wars thing. Every competitive game out there has a replay system...Auto-matching too. Not to mention needed UI tweaks, more informative ability and units descriptions (type of dmg, how much dmg -> for example rook's towers), etc....Oh boy, there is much to be done with Demigod in order to be a true competitive game. Clan Wars isn't needed right now and imo, the time spent with it could be used for more important issues.

I agree with Dead Ghost. Replays in a competitive environment are how you learn how to get better.

But reciently when talking to another developer I was told that the % of players that actually watch replays is very low. If true, that makes adding a replay feature not the most efficient use of a developer time. That said it is still something I would like to see added.

(FYI, to do replays the right way is actually a very complex issue as the right way includes being able to always view a replay even if the game has been patched and you want to view an older replay).

On the subjects of improvements I think the UI needs to support more player feedback. Can you imagine how much the game would change if you could:

See what gear a demigod had equipped!

I think you should be able to know what gear your opponnet is using! I'm not sure the best way to incorperate this feature and the trick of course would be coming up with intuitive, non-cluttering UI that is easy to use.

Anyway I'm digressing away from the subject of multiplayer match ups and Clans.

I'm not against Clans, depending on how it's done it could be cool. I just would prefer some of the other basic necessity's (Team multiplayer w/match making based on skill and UI feedback improvements) first.

-Jara

(FYI, to do replays the right way is actually a very complex issue as the right way includes being able to always view a replay even if the game has been patched and you want to view an older replay).

I don't think that one is ever going to be possible, not without far more coding than should ever occur.

Quoting Ron Lugge,

reply 18

(FYI, to do replays the right way is actually a very complex issue as the right way includes being able to always view a replay even if the game has been patched and you want to view an older replay).
I don't think that one is ever going to be possible, not without far more coding than should ever occur.

It is possible, but not at all easy. (I know someone who is doing it but I can't say any more)

It requires the game to check which version and then on your computer you basicly have to keep multiple files/version of the game so that the replay system would basicly use an older version of the game if it needed to. Of course you'd also need server support so that if you don't have said version attempting to run a mid-way or older version would first connect you to said server get the data set up that version and then launch the replay. Anyway it's not a mild under taking in any way shape or form.

I'm a fan of baby steps

Having a replay that will play replays from the current updated version of the game would be a great start.

As far as i know, the replay system is already build into the game, but it's not fully functional at this time. You can try to run it, but it won't work properly. That's why i think it wouldn't be too hard for them to finish the work on the replay system.

Wow Late summer. Epic fucking fail. This is a team based game so a clan feature is pretty important for it to be competetive. This game will be dead way before clans wars comes out.

Quoting Ron Lugge,

reply 18

(FYI, to do replays the right way is actually a very complex issue as the right way includes being able to always view a replay even if the game has been patched and you want to view an older replay).
I don't think that one is ever going to be possible, not without far more coding than should ever occur.

C&C3 already does it. And yes, it's a huge amount of work - but EA had money to burn on that game (which also resulted in an app to view replays without owning the game).

Use the guildwars system, completely randomized clan matches based on ladder position (so more experienced clans don't totally crush less experienced).

Quoting Jaradakar,

reply 15

Quoting mehoo462, reply 11Well Jara, interesting Analysis, but actually uberShade in reply #16 brings up an excellent point.

Custom Games are essentially team lobbies. Especially now that single players should be able to get into skirmish and Pantheon more reliably, the only reason to go to custom games is to play a team game. Which means all your team has to do is look in the custom games list to find another team that wants to play.

I imagine once people start using automatch more, custom games will be most exclusively for Pre-made teams. If you don't have a pre-made team why not play via pantheon where you're at least more likely to get placed on a team with somewhere of your level.

So yes, my position is changed. I think pre-made teams are totally workable via Custom Game in the current version.

While you are partially right that method is also hugely inefficient and has many other problems.

You have many people hosting games and waiting for others to join, while others are doing the same. This results in others waiting for you to join while your team is doing the same.

The biggest factor is there is no automatching based on skill of your opponnets, just pure random luck of who joins your game.

I want to be able to arranged a team and play games and still gain favor or score towards the Pantheon and last I heard, custom games (due to how easy it is to cheat in them Vs all the options/settings against easy AI) won't be giving favor in the near future.

Custom games in my mind is great if you have 10 friends and want to do a 5v5. Or 8 friends and want to do a 4v4, etc, etc.

It's also great for LAN parties but they are not competitive in any way due to the factors above and are not conducive to internet play and efficient matching.

-Jara

Would this be as simple as scheduling a game 5-10 min in the future and get players? There's something to get said about trying to get team automatching sooner than the scheduling, but you can't say that they're exclusive.

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