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Demigod: A new day

By on May 4, 2009 11:24:27 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001
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Our story so far...

The initial release of Demigod was marred due to us not taking into account pirates trying to get validated when we set up our network infrastructure. This resulted in the multiplayer game being basically unplayable which resulted in some pretty negative first day reviews.

48 hours later, we set up an alternative network for legitimate players, released a Demigod update and most people were able to connect - but with a big catch:

Demigod also debuted with a technology internally referred to as "Super NAT". The idea was to let people be able to connect to other people without having to mess with routers or anything.  And it worked great in theory.  In the beta, we noticed that the connection servers required a lot of resources to do their thing quickly. No problem, we added more servers and added still more again for the release.  But that turned out to have been a vast under-estimation still as it wasn't a linear progression but an exponential one.

So over the past 2 weeks, we ditched what we had and started from scratch.  Late last week, because we realized that time is of the essence, the Impulse team at Stardock got assigned to the project and we began to use Impulse tech to build something new.

The new system supports Direct Connection (which is pretty traditional - port forwarding). If that fails, it will use NAT negotiation. And if that fails it'll hook up to a series of Proxy servers to handle it.

Tonight

The proxy services will not be in tonight's build because of the lateness and we don't want to put that up and then leave for the evening only to wake up in the morning, go over to Shack News or Voodoo Extreme and see a headline "Stardock's Network becomes sentient, begins world conquest!" or something. So we'll wait until Wednesday during the daylight hours to turn that part on.

We are marking this build as a BETA still since it's so late into the evening we don't want to take any chances.

Expected Results

This update isn't the end all, be all update. This week is the week of putting this pain behind us.  Tonight's update is just the first step. Without the proxy, you'll still have people who will fail on the NAT and we are sure, given the sheer quantity of changes, that there will probably be some problem in there since we've had to take out most of the licensed code and replace it with Impulse code. But based on what we're seeing it should be much better for most people.  

If you are one of the people who it doesn't work for, hang in there.  If you are part of the majority who is having no problem with Demigod, I realize that we keep focusing on connectivity versus game enhancements or improving the Pantheon and such it's just that my first priority is to make sure everyone can play the game online as well as single player.  

The team at GPG and at Stardock are already working on v1.01 which will have the kinds of new features and such our users are used to seeing in Stardock games.  But we have felt it would be in bad taste to talk about new features while there are people who couldn't play online so I hope you understand why we've not been talking about that yet.

Testing

So now we’re testing it with people on the chat channels and learning lots of things that we can now pass on to you.

Below are some suggestions for connecting faster. You don't have to do them but they will make a huge difference in how fast you connect and how widely you can connect to other people.

First if your router has an SPI “firewall” you may find you have a better experience if you turn it off. SPI firewalls provide good protection against random packets coming in but the downside is that on some consumer routers, it will prevent you from directly connecting to another player forcing the NAT servers (which are far slower) to pick up the slack.

image

 

Next: You need to make sure your router is port forwarding to ports 6100 through 6200 to whatever IP address your computer is using.  Don’t assume your machine is that IP address because there’s a good chance it’s not.

image

 

If you do these things right, you’ll be able to DIRECT-Connect with the new Impulse Reactor we’re releasing tonight. If you don’t, it will fail over to the new Impulse Reactor NAT negotiation system we’ve been working on the past 2 weeks which is a thousand times better than what we already have out  but it will slow everyone down.

If THAT fails, then it really gets painful because then you’re going to be sent over to one of the Proxy servers. These sound great in theory and they have the nice advantage of working basically 100% of the time but it will probably take us weeks to set up enough of these to make everyone happy because we have to locate them near you otherwise lag will be high.

If you're afraid of port forwarding go here: http://www.portforward.com/

ONCE IN GAME

The next thing we’ve discovered: There is a lot of software out there now that packet sniffs.  Anti-virus programs even Google Desktop.  How do you know if something is sniffing packets on your system? The game will stutter – go for a couple seconds, then pause a bit, go for a couple seconds, pause, and so on.  There’s not much we can do on our end to stop that. You can try lowering your graphics settings but odds are, someone you’re playing has something that’s sniffing through your packets and slowing things down. And it only takes one person in the game to have this to make it stutter for everyone.

BTW, in the 10 person game we were playing, *I* was the one with the firewall applet I had forgotten to turn off that was monitoring packets. So it can happen to the best of us.

The update status

So they’re putting it together now.  It’ll still be a couple hours because of all the uploading that has to do. Everyone’s very excited.

Again: If there are any IT people hanging around reading this, I’m not a network guy but I am being told by people that the fact that the entire backend for this game has been completely re-designed and re-implemented in 2 weeks is super insane.

Once this is up, our team will be talking at length at what was learned.  What I keep being told is this: What works fine for 500 people can totally fall apart for 5,000 people and that’s what we’ve run into in a nutshell for these past 2 weeks.

Known bugs

Tonight's build does have an annoying bug in that it says Sim speed is 0 for you so you can't tell how well you're running. We've informed GPG and it'll get fixed in an upcoming update.

Favor points should acrue without a problem with tonight's build as well.  

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May 6, 2009 12:56:56 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

ooooooohhhhh.....so you make a few comments, and now you feel you are entitled to make the developers work hours are that humanly impossible?  Then do something instead of complaining.....fly your ass down to Michigan and become their own personal coffee boy or something.

 

For people who work in retail, they know that some customers can never be fully satisfied....even when they see you working the best you can.  To them, I say "Piss Off"

So, you suggest that Stardock tells customers to bug off?  Sorry, I fail to see what you are saying by quoting me.  I never said I wanted them to work til they die, I said what I meant and explained it.  I would happily fly down there on my own dime just to help and give assistance. 

I even emailed Stardock asking if they were employing such type jobs to test all these problems.  I would happily do anything it took to get it done.  Just like they are.

We are all human beings and we should treat each other as such. It's so easy to hide behind a computer and be a complete tool like that Ex guy. And I understand why you would post such an angry reply.

I'd advise you not to get angry over a tool. In fact, ignore them totally, IMO they've lost the right to support from the moment said tool ordered you not to sleep, not to go back on weekends and to work on the game 24/7. No decent human being would order that from a fellow human being. Only a tool would do that.

Easy to hide behind a computer?  lol. What am I hiding from?  I am saying what I think of a game that I beta tested, purchased, visit the fourms every day for months, and give great input about.  Why should I hide my opinion?  I shouldn't.  As many others feel the same.  Because I never even would mean such a thing for them to do, as they have famlies and whatever.  I can hardly take your post seriously, would you like my hammer?  Seems you lost your tools.

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May 6, 2009 1:16:38 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I actually sorta agree with Ex's rant, except for the part telling them to stay up until its done.  It is difficult getting into games and much moreso when doing it with a small group of friends, and like he said, we expected more progress sooner than what we've got.  3 weeks later and my friends and I can't play together any more consistently/quickly now than we could then, and gameranger should be renamed pirate's lagoon since there are rarely any non pirated version games hosted there.  He has every right to be frustrated but no right to tell Frogboy and Stardock what they need to do - particularly because he can return the game for the purchase price if he chooses.

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May 6, 2009 1:19:24 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Tidus1492,
I actually sorta agree with Ex's rant, except for the part telling them to stay up until its done.  It is difficult getting into games and much moreso when doing it with a small group of friends, and like he said, we expected more progress sooner than what we've got.  3 weeks later and my friends and I can't play together any more consistently/quickly now than we could then, and gameranger should be renamed pirate's lagoon since there are rarely any non pirated version games hosted there.  He has every right to be frustrated but no right to tell Frogboy and Stardock what they need to do - particularly because he can return the game for the purchase price if he chooses.

 

Really was not what I meant for them to do.  Probably should have gone more in detail, I did not think the post would have even been replied to in the first place lol.

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May 6, 2009 1:28:01 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

played some on the beta patch and connections were alot more consistent and alot faster

still had the occasional blip here and there with someone that got a 0 ping but a reconnect usually fixed it.. was able to get some 4v4s and 3v3s going with ease.. didnt try 5v5s yet

lookin good so far

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May 6, 2009 1:33:54 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

[quote who="eX^" reply="3" id="2189085"]


Quoting Tidus1492,
reply 2
I actually sorta agree with Ex's rant, except for the part telling them to stay up until its done.  It is difficult getting into games and much moreso when doing it with a small group of friends, and like he said, we expected more progress sooner than what we've got.  3 weeks later and my friends and I can't play together any more consistently/quickly now than we could then, and gameranger should be renamed pirate's lagoon since there are rarely any non pirated version games hosted there.  He has every right to be frustrated but no right to tell Frogboy and Stardock what they need to do - particularly because he can return the game for the purchase price if he chooses.



 

Really was not what I meant for them to do.  Probably should have gone more in detail, I did not think the post would have even been replied to in the first place lol.
[/quote]

 

You said your piece, Frogboy said his, let's move on now......When this game is completely fixed, and we're all enjoying ourselves, we'll look back on this thread and laugh at how upset and frustrated we became with each other.

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May 6, 2009 2:12:14 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

As said in the manual, We don't care if you drive a nice car and are chick magnets.  We don't care if you work 22 hours a day for 7 days.  We don't care if you re invent the whole multiplayer nat proxy whatever in 2 weeks.  

We just want the game to work in multiplayer!  I think we have the right to complain as customers, it's 3 weeks since launch.  I guess we are so used to having multiplayer work in other rts games that when it doesn't work, we wonder why it works for other rts games.

 

 

 

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May 6, 2009 2:24:11 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Blitz64,
As said in the manual, We don't care if you drive a nice car and are chick magnets.  We don't care if you work 22 hours a day for 7 days.  We don't care if you re invent the whole multiplayer nat proxy whatever in 2 weeks.  

We just want the game to work in multiplayer!  I think we have the right to complain as customers, it's 3 weeks since launch.  I guess we are so used to having multiplayer work in other rts games that when it doesn't work, we wonder why it works for other rts games.

 

 

 

qft

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May 6, 2009 2:32:05 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

The multiplayer system not working wouldn't be such an issue if the game wasn't entirely multiplayer focused. Instead of a component of a whole product not working, the key feature of the product isn't functional. This would be simillar to purchasing a brand new Car, only to find that the Engine doesn't work. The radio still works though, so you can pretend your driving with the tunes blaring until the mechanics get the car up and running.

Personally, I think Brad's response was warranted. I work in a Law Firm, and during one hell of an audit I basically had to pull a 48 hour work period - no breaks - to get everything done on time. It was a nightmare. If someone had of turned around to me and basically said my work wasn't good enough and that I should stop slacking off and get it done I would have responded in exactly the same way. If Brad was rude, which I don't think he was, than eX was rude + 10. He's a typical example of the underappreciative user who vents on the forums with abandon. In this case however, the Publisher actually responded.

Anyway, my understanding for this problem is reaching the end of it's rope. I have tried every forseeable solution to the problems I have encountred and have made a couple of posts about it to get some help from others and I still am unable to play. I'm glad that my problem isn't shared by everyone, and that people are enjoying this game. Since I downloaded the Beta patch, which Brad said could cause more harm than good, I can't really blame anyone for my game functioning less than before but myself. Having said that, once the next proper release patch goes live and the Proxy servers are up - if my connectivity is still not acceptable, i.e. I can connect more often than not, then I don't really have any choice but to arrange for a refund. This isn't saying Stardock did a bad job - EA Games refused to give me a refund at all for SPORE after I finished the game in 8 hours and realised that they had misled the public in regards to the content - rather that my situation falls outside of the acceptable solutions. Xbox Live doesn't work for me either - not because of connection issues but rather because Match Making throws me in with the American gamers which means my Ping is at least three times the acceptable limit. My solution? Don't renew my Xbox Live subscription and play something else.

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May 6, 2009 2:40:57 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

First off, I think Frogboy and the gang are doing an excellent job.  Never have I seen such dedication for improving a product and such great communication.

Secondly, my experience and understanding of the beta patch is this:

It's like having a bunch of kids lining up behind a waterfountain and waiting their turn to drink.  The first few drink their fill and move through the line smoothly.  But then, inevitably, one kid starts to drink the water then chokes and dies.  This dead kid stalls everything and screws up the line completely.  Causing some to sit there and wait in line, others to unsuccessfully skip ahead in line and get the water. 

Translation:

For most of the games I tried to play tonight, the first 3-5 people could connect just fine. However, there were a few that kept stalling on one person or another.  This caused major problems.  When kicked, it would bug up the Queue.  Others would then try to connect afterwards and things would mess up.  People would then get frustrated at being on the edge of a great 3v3 or 4v4 and leave.  Others would wait and stay. And I would get frustrated with the "problem children" (those who keep trying to connect when they don't have their router configured correctly etc.), and end up having to rehost. 

All in all, I have faith that MP will work smoothly eventually.  Until then, I'll keep trying to play this game because it's great.  Thanks for your dedication and communication. It is much appreciated.

 

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May 6, 2009 2:53:09 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting ZehDon,
Personally, I think Brad's response was warranted. I work in a Law Firm, and during one hell of an audit I basically had to pull a 48 hour work period - no breaks - to get everything done on time. It was a nightmare. If someone had of turned around to me and basically said my work wasn't good enough and that I should stop slacking off and get it done I would have responded in exactly the same way. If Brad was rude, which I don't think he was, than eX was rude + 10. He's a typical example of the underappreciative user who vents on the forums with abandon. In this case however, the Publisher actually responded.

Still, during a 48 hour work period to get something done, you do not tell your frustrated or basically helpless customer to screw off and return the product.  My post was not intended to be rude in a disrespectful manner, I have already said that numerous times.  Underappreciative?  Slightly.  Though, not so much because of how much I have tested the game, gave my input, and really did try as much as it could with the current state to play the game.  I have every right to say what I feel, as I know I speak for other people who do not visit the forums or bother to post.  To my suprise, through my other topics and Demigod suggestion, I get a reply from a publisher to this post of everything .

 

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May 6, 2009 3:57:30 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

eX^ said some stuff and Frogboy said some stuff and now i think we should just get past that.

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May 6, 2009 4:04:05 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Hello,

Hopefully this question will get an answer...

 

Will you, in time, remove the requirement that we will have to turn off our Firewall in order to play?

I understand forwarding being a requirement, but I have never been asked to turn off our router's firewall in order to play a computer game online. Im just a little bit shaky on the idea of having my firewall down...

 

Thanks...

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May 6, 2009 4:10:41 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I'm pretty sure that is what they were trying to do from the beginning, get p2p working without anyone having to stuff around with their firewall or ports - unfortunately it just didn't work out.  So once their 3 teir connection method is in place, you shouldn't have to disable your firewall or even forward ports - but doing so might make you connect a little quicker or something.

 

That is my understanding at any rate - could be wrong.

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May 6, 2009 4:13:04 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Even with the Firewall down, I am getting stuck on the "Connection Info" screen.

 

I forwarded the respective ports, maybe I am doing something wrong? If so, anyone with a Westell router can help me... (I have model 7500)

 

Thanks a ton.

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May 6, 2009 4:45:24 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting pugmastaflex,
I am getting stuck on the "Connection Info" screen... I forwarded the respective ports, maybe I am doing something wrong?

I had exactly the same problem with the Beta patch. Something's not quite right. I'm not sure what. I reverted back to the last release version, and I was able to get past that screen again.

 

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May 6, 2009 4:55:33 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Did you reboot your PC?  After I patched impulse actually asked me to reboot for some unknown reason, I tried to play without rebooting and it wouldn't connect properly and was crashing.

 

Seemed to be okay after rebooting - I really don't know what they did that would require a reboot though.

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May 6, 2009 5:23:58 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Yep, re-booted more than once. No help.

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May 6, 2009 6:39:01 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Well, yes ex was rude. But at this point, it's not hard to understand why. It's not like we're having day 1 pirate related problems now. Three weeks later, and I still can't play online with anybody. Every test I can run shows that it *should* be working, and yet it doesn't.

Now I really like Stardock, but this is testing my patience. Launch bugs aren't that uncommon, not being able to play without Hamachi after 3 weeks isn't a launch bug anymore. It's some kind of fundamental problem that should have been caught during testing. People can be forgiven for being frustrated when they bought a multiplayer game and didn't get a multiplayer game.

Besides, the real fear isn't someone like ex. That he's here posting about it shows he cares. The real problem is someone who buys it, tries it once, then tells their friends that they got ripped off becuase the game doesn't work. I mean I was all set to pre-order Elemental, but this experience is making me hold off.

 

As for Frogboy, part of his personal popularity is that he's a real person who says what he really thinks, instead of being one of those corporate hacks that tries to say nothing. But this time his company shipped something that is fundamentally broken for a lot of people. Getting pissy at them for being pissed off about something that should never have happened in the first place isn't terribly fair (and lets be honest, the game shouldn't have shipped with connection problems this serious).

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May 6, 2009 7:25:13 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Brad's stated numerous times that he's not happy with how the MP came out.  That was not the issue, and not why Brad got "pissy".  What he took issue with was at a disgrunted, rude, and poorly worded post implying that Stardock wasn't working hard enough (keep in mind that they're the publisher, not the developer), and in turn telling Brad that he should push his people even harder--telling him how to run his company.

I'm sorry, but Ex's post WAS rude, and uninformed, even if that was not the intention.  Saying afterwards that people misinterpreted it as being rude is rather naive, as you can clearly see the tone of the post was very much indeed rude/inconsiderate.

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May 6, 2009 9:37:39 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

+1 to Brad. He wins end of story.

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May 6, 2009 11:40:03 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

regarding the issue of the broken multiplayer connectivity at release, Brad's conduct has been exemplary of how every software company should behave. if your product doesn't work as well as you'd like to (or as well as your customers expect it to) then you need to do what Brad did and get out in public and communicate about exactly what they're doing to make it better. 

 

regarding eX^ and Brad's stupid little argument here: poor form on both sides. mostly from eX^ though for saying something so deeply insulting and insensitive without even checking to see whether or not its true. its totally reasonable that the comments infuriated Brad. i think a private message or a forum moderator should have handled the situation though, airing all this in public leaves a bad impression.

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May 6, 2009 11:40:57 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I think we should move on from both posts. Clearly ex^ was pissed, and he had stated some reasons that we all have experienced, and clearly Brad and the rest of Stardock HAVE been working an INSANE amount of hours to get these issues fixed, and the fact that Brads not going to sit around and take someones shit is a nice reminder that he is human.

With that being said, ex^ shouldnt have been as rude although he did pay for the game, they are offering full refunds. And Brad should have just let it roll off his little froggy shoulders. All in all, I think we should ALL stop discussing it. Move on, and be done.

Lets all just END IT and stop feeding an ugly monster.

 

Stardock, continue to work, most of us know you are constantly working hard.

- Mord

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May 6, 2009 11:59:49 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

BTW, yesterday, our team came in at 9am and did not leave until the following morning (7am). That's a 22 hour day. Sorry that's not good enough for you.

Brad:

I placed an order today on the faith that you guys will get this working, and will make it up to your customers. I don't agree with you on all of your positions, but I do like that you're open and approachable. I don't really have the authority or the grounds to expect you to change your tone, but it would be nice if you didn't reply and take people's heads off. I know you get a lot of crap you probably don't deserve, but others look to you to set an example.

I didn't come here to "preach" or nitpick, just wanted to share my thoughts.

I'm not a Stardock fanboy, but I'm not a hater either. I'm just genuinely interested in how this will all work out and am wishing you guys the best.

P.S.

Could you release some updated information regarding what customers have to do to qualify for the coupons you mentioned in a previous topic? One thing that wasn't (completely) clear to me was how do you know if they bought it retail before May 10th? Are you going off of when the game was registered or do we contact support with a pdf of the receipt? I contacted support and they mentioned the details are not worked out yet.

Thanks.

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May 6, 2009 12:16:20 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

That was a harsh response from Frogboy. Ex shouldn't have said that, it was pretty rude. He and i am sure many others, my friends and i included, are just frustrated that we can't play this fun game which we spent money on.  

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May 6, 2009 12:27:01 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Why not use UPNP?  Sure not all routers support it but for the growing number that do, wouldn't you get all the benifits of port forwarding without requiring the user to be tech-savvy enough to do it themselves?

We have asked RAKnet this very question today.

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