Demigod: Breakthru

Yes!

By Frogboy on May 2, 2009 8:25:44 PM from

Okay, I now feel confident in publicly saying that I think that the connectivity issues some have had is going to go away next week.

Here's what we've built:

1. If you open ports 6112 to 6200 and port forward them to your IP on your router (this is for people who are familiar with this stuff) you'll get what is called direct connect.

2. If you don't do this, we will try to do a quick NAT connect. This takes longer but works for most people.

3. If NAT fails, you will be connected to our Proxy server system. This is not going to be super desireable at first because the physical location of the Proxy server is going to make the difference between a good and a lagfest. When the proxy server is nearby (east coast US player for instance to the east cost proxy server) it's perfectly good. But, for instance, if you're in Japan and it uses a proxy server in Singapore, you're adding 200ms to your latency which can make the game a total lag nightmare. so this is clearly your last result.

...

Now, right now, the current version of Demigod uses a connectivity server that ONLY does option 2. That's because it was decided early on that users shouldn't have to open ports. This, IMO, should NEVER have been the first option because when you force even technically sophisticated users into this system, you end up having a LOT of unnecessary connections to these NAT servers.

...

So, I feel confident that this next week is going to be the turning point for those people who have had connectivity difficulties PLUS the whole range of stat stuff, pantheon stuff, etc. will all come into line as well because, as I've said elsewhere, because the connectivity thing was our #1 priority, everyone, including the people who would resolve favor items and favor points and accurate win/loss stuff have been pulled onto this.

Heck, this past week, I had the ART team from Elemental working on doing benchmarks for speeing up NAT (That's where we finally concluded that NAT, for P2P is just feasible when there's thousands of players, it would simply require so many NAT servers, located around the world, to make it not totally awful that it wasn't financially logical - we'd be better off just hosting all the traffic which is better anyway).

We absolutely do not want to do any more "betas". The betas don't really solve our problems. We're getting rave emails from people in support today saying how this beta "totally fixes connectivity". NO, it doesn't. The only reason it seems that way is because there's so fewer people using the beta servers. If you check impulsereactor.dll, it's still the same one from day 0. So the betas don't really help because it gives us the same false sense of success that the actual open beta had.

The other problem with the beta is that it splits the multiplayer community which is really a problem. Right now, the Demigod MP community is fragmented. You've got a ton of people on Game Ranger. a Bunch of people on Himachi, others on Demigod release and some on the beta. And you get some very poor results hwen you play Skirmish or Pantheon or just find games.

Now one of the things that I've always been painfully aware of in online games is that you need a critical mass of users to make it work. With Demigod, we have some plans on how to make sure there's always lots of people to play with once the MP is bullet proof both in terms of connectivity and stat tracking. As someone who has been ejected from a pantheon game during connection, I know we have to do some QUICK changes to some of this stuff in order for the MP experience to have any integrity.

First, one of the things we did is we have everyone's email address who has updated the game. When we start the next-gen pantheon with favor points, achievements, favor items, stat tracking, disconnects dealt with and of course bullet proof MP (all of which I expect to be done this week) we will email everyone letting them know where we are at.

Second, the Stardock marketing push will actually begin. After that day 0 debacle with the MP connectivity being so crummy, I made marketing halt all Demigod marketing efforts. Those will go into high gear probably in the third week of May.

Third, and this is where we need your help: The demo. We will be working with GPG on the demo but I was thinking of proposing that the demo for Demigod be multiplayer ONLY. Moreover, I would like the demo players to be able to play online with legitimate players. Here's where we need your help: What do you think would be a good way to limit this demo then in order to get people to still buy the game?

Fourth, we plan to start formal Demigod tournmants with cash and prizes for the winners.

Fifth, Stardock is working on an update to Impulse Reactor that will allow people to have more control over the types of people people are matched up with. Think of it being like eHarmony but for gaming. You'll be able to describe the type of gamer you are and the match making system will pick out people for you. This feature is actually being developed for Elemental but because Demigod uses Impulse Reactor, it'll get that for free.

Sixth, Stardock moderators will soon be introduced into the online community. This will probably happen in mid-May. The idea is, if we have forum moderators, why not multiplayer ones? Their job will be to provide enjoyable multiplayer experiences (i.e. good sports, skilled player, etc.) PLUS they will be able to add or subtract in-game karma from players. People who are just nasty or horrible to other players will lose karma points. People who are good sports and good citizens will get points. Those with higher karma will tend to get matched up. Yes, we know this is controversal. Players will see the karma as part of their account and there will be a way for users who feel they were unfairly negated to appeal.

Seventh, all people who have bought Demigod at retail or direct up May 10th (and didn't return the game obviously) will be getting a coupon that will let them purchase a second copy of Demigod for 50% off for a limited time as a way for us to show appreciation for this community that has put their faith and trust in us.

Thanks everyone!

+912 Karma | 288 Replies

sounds good, i think that having:

2 DG, probably rook(because he has been used a lot in marketing and people will want to try it) and QoT/Sedna for the other... they get to sample both assassin and general playstyles

one map (crucible)

2v2 matchups only

no favor (though still viewable)

limited items (anything over 5k gold greyed)

1. If you open ports 6112 to 6200 and port forward them to your IP on your router (this is for people who are familiar with this stuff) you'll get what is called direct connect.

Is there a way to specify a different range of ports? I have a public Internet address from my ISP (University) and many many thousands of available ports. It's just that a few incoming ports are blocked, including quite some in the 6112-6200 range.

But for example the whole range from 50000 to 60000 is totally unblocked here, so Demigod could easily use those.

To summarize: No NAT, few blocked ports, plenty of alternatives, custom port range would work great.

Excellent! I am confident that this willy resolve my problem too . But can we still use ImpulseReactorOptions.exe to specify the ports?

All sounds great, superb suport again.

About the demo, if you are insistant on making it an online demo: make it skirmish only and have two ways of setting it up. Either the demo player creates a game in which case all can join OR if a paying customer sets up a skirmish game they have the option of letting demo players see it or not (and so join). This way, those of us who are interested in playing with new players and trying to help them can and those who dont want to play against demo players can avoid them. Also, letting us know who are demo players before the match starts might help with side balancing as well.

Obviously this means not limiting which maps are available and would imply that 2-4 DG's should be available for demo players.

Just my thoughts, cant wait for the new patch!

If the demo is limited in what demigods are playable, it will really warp gameplay by ensuring that at least 50% of the demigods you encounter will be those. This will most likely degrade the gameplay experience of the people who actually bought the game. It seems a much better idea to somehow limit the demo players otherwise, for example limiting the level they can achieve, not allowing them to play on more than 1 map and not giving access to favour items, to name a few options.

Still, all those things will also ensure that if you are in a match with a demo player, that demo player will be less powerful than people who've bought the game, which is again no fun if the demo player is on your team (or on the other team if you like a challenge).

In short, it's probably best to only let demo players into custom games so that everyone knows what they're getting into beforehand.

regarding the demo players being able to play, I think limiting to 1 assassin and 1 general and also limiting the level to say 15 or so would be sufficient.

I feel that limiting the level is as important as restricting to only 2 of the demigods, because some people have been known to just stay forever on demo versions You could also restrict the demo to only playing the initial maps - thus dissallowing user created maps and any new maps that may come later.

Third, and this is where we need your help: The demo. We will be working with GPG on the demo but I was thinking of proposing that the demo for Demigod be multiplayer ONLY. Moreover, I would like the demo players to be able to play online with legitimate players. Here's where we need your help: What do you think would be a good way to limit this demo then in order to get people to still buy the game?

I can think of two good ways to do it. Both have been suggested slighlty diferently by other posters.

The first and this is my favourite:

Give demo players full access to the multiplayer game, but limit them to a set number of matches in total, I would think about 10 or 20 matches is plaenty to whet a players appetite for more. So, you download the game and you can play online but after 20 matches as you are really getting into it you will be told that you need to buy the full game to play further. Then you can eithey buy a boxed copy and wait for that to arrive or pay via impulse and continue playing staight away with no further downloading or installing, it would just unlock via impulse. Seems to me that would be relatively simple to implement and would be most likely to get the most paying customers. Also, it would add players to the multiplayer side all the time as demo players join in!

The second way:

Make a cut down version of the game for the demo. Only 1 map/arena and only unranked skirmish matches. No favour or favour items. The demigod you play is picked randonly for demo players so that they get to try at all the demigods. Only one small demo map that plays out in about 5 mins or less just to give a flavour of the full game. The demo players would only play vs demo players otherwise it wouldnt be fair on them with the full game owners having big advantages and just farming the demo players.

There, my ideas, hope they are useful

Never seen a game where the developer is this close to the community, even though demigod has it problems atm, seeing Frogboy writing all these updates, tells me that this game has a great future in store for it, keep the great work up

"Third, and this is where we need your help: The demo. We will be working with GPG on the demo but I was thinking of proposing that the demo for Demigod be multiplayer ONLY. Moreover, I would like the demo players to be able to play online with legitimate players. Here's where we need your help: What do you think would be a good way to limit this demo then in order to get people to still buy the game?"

Imo, it's really needed a small tutorial for new players, included in the demo. At least put the pdf manual in the demo and redirect the user to the manual, after the install.

I think the demo should have 2 demigods, one assassin and one general (maybe Rook and Sedna), the rest of them should be deleted from the demo files, for a lighter download size, but also for preventing hackers to unlock the rest of the demigods. Of course this would not permit online play, but would permit playing on LAN (with hamachi). And that's enough i think, it's the most problem free option i can think of. Add some skirmish with AI option and that's all. Put there one map, a 3v3 one would be ok.

"Sixth, Stardock moderators will soon be introduced into the online community. This will probably happen in mid-May. The idea is, if we have forum moderators, why not multiplayer ones? Their job will be to provide enjoyable multiplayer experiences (i.e. good sports, skilled player, etc.) PLUS they will be able to add or subtract in-game karma from players. People who are just nasty or horrible to other players will lose karma points. People who are good sports and good citizens will get points. Those with higher karma will tend to get matched up. Yes, we know this is controversal. Players will see the karma as part of their account and there will be a way for users who feel they were unfairly negated to appeal."

I think this is a good idea...but in theory. I don't think that you will have enough online moderators to flag all the bad people out there. Not even close. That's why i think it's a better idea to let players give bad karma to other players. But this idea could be flawed also because one player could give bad karma to other player just because he thinks the other guy is a n00b. So, imo, i think in the end that bad karma should not be considered for automatic match matching, but instead let players choose who to kick from lobby, based on the bad karma points they got on their profile.

"Seventh, all people who have bought Demigod at retail or direct up May 10th (and didn't return the game obviously) will be getting a coupon that will let them purchase a second copy of Demigod for 50% off for a limited time as a way for us to show appreciation for this community that has put their faith and trust in us."

This is a nice surprise. But please make it so users can give it to others as a gift. I have a friend who is not so convinced to buy Demigod, so a 50% off sure will change his mind. This move will only help the Demigod community, as people will have more of their friends joining the game and play together (in clans maybe, in the future).

quoting post

@ Frogboy

the demo should contain:

1 map (maybe Cataract or Prison)

2 Demigods : 1 General + 1 Assasin

this should be a nice deal for all interested players and would give them not to much, but much enough to want more !

For limiting the demo I would propose that people download the demo from Impulse, requiring an Impulse account. Then you could limit the amount of games a player can have to something like 5 to 10.

You can't limit the demo to 1 demigod because either 1) We get shit loads of noob rooks in multiplayer gaming, people will just quit when they enter a game and see 2 Rooks on their team etc or 2) You limit all demo people to just play with each other but with only 1 or 2 Demigods to select it will be a very stale experience.

Quoting ZiberWulf,

reply 7

The second way:

Make a cut down version of the game for the demo. Only 1 map/arena and only unranked skirmish matches. No favour or favour items. The demigod you play is picked randonly for demo players so that they get to try at all the demigods. Only one small demo map that plays out in about 5 mins or less just to give a flavour of the full game. The demo players would only play vs demo players otherwise it wouldnt be fair on them with the full game owners having big advantages and just farming the demo players.

This is also a good idea.

Some people talking about not wanting to play with others who trash talk and would thus have "low karma" or equivalent...I'd just like to say that i really don't care if you trash talk, so long as you don't suck when I'm playing with or against you. Having a skill matched game is so far up the priority list compared to not having people who trash talk its not even a consideration for me.

Playing SupCom online had its problems, but the most significant one for me was that there werent enough people playing 2v2 ranked, so my partner and I would either be matched against people who hadn't played, or people who were godlike at the game. We could make a 2v2 custom game, but the people playing custom were rarely any good.

Team matching should be a priority IMO, if I want to play a game with a couple of friends, we are limited to playing custom games at present, which means there is very little chance of our opponents coordinating at all, and leads to an absolute stomping.

Obviously its a question of player pool size, but by using a karma system you are reducing the size of that pool. Please think carefully about whether the community is large enough to do this.

I think you should give them something like 4 complete games in the demo. I think this is enough for people to get a taste, and get into it (if they're ever going to get into it) and still limit it giving them a relatively complete experience. You could go even higher in the total number of games, and really get them more addicted, but I think a simple limit on the number of launches is probably the way to go. If you do this, make sure noone can crack it so that they can set the number of multiplayer games to limitless. I'm thinking 4, 8, ten...something like that would probably work.

I think that would be really easy to implement, give the players choices, and still make it a demo. Maybe give them a single pantheon game as well.

All good news

I also think that making the coupon valid for the future SD game would be much better.

Would it be possible to provide information on which of the connection methods is being used for a particular game? I am thinking either via a debug flag, or some little status notification that you can click on to be linked to an explanation of what you could potentially do to improve your connection.

Edit: I think moderating multiplayer games is a great idea. I don't believe that the default behaviour online has to be to insult each-other, and I think the difference in atmosphere between Counter Strike and Team Fortress 2 illustrates this nicely. Even though there is a huge overlap in the people who play these games, they behave much better in the latter - people act as they think they are expected to in the given situation.

Regarding the demo, I think there are two points:

1) People with no money who would normally pirate the game will instead play the demo forever. Unless you have a very robust method to enforce a timelimit, you'll be adding a lot of traffic to game servers.

Edit: an example of this from Counter Strike: there are still tens of thousands of pirates playing using a hacked Condition Zero client, playing it over and over and over, even though it is the worst interpretation of CS.

2) You need to provide a good experience of Demigod, but only a snippet with a glimpse of some of the other things that they would get if they purchased the full game. You need to tease and entice rather than frustrate your demo players. A vertical slice if you will - so they can play up to top level and remain competitive, but will also see that people who own the game have a lot more options than them.

People have already mentioned putting in only a couple of Demigods and maps - I would suggest that you should be able to see all of the maps in the list, because they look really cool, but not select them. But there is still a problem there if you join a game and the host changes to a map which you, as a demo player, are not allowed to play. Disabling items is also interesting: I would allow items of all levels and favour items to be taken by demo players, but again a vertical slice, so they only have a choice of two at each power level.

my suggestion for the Demo is

Cataract only
choice of dark side or light side
accounts labeled as demo, perhaps a simple (demo) next to their name. this would help them find other new players, and avoid 'pro's' looking for a quick laugh.

1. Demo players only connect to each other.

2. All demigods available, but selected randomly for you when joining a match

3. Limited to skirmish only

4. Limited to 1-2 maps

5. 2v2 and 3v3 only, with AI players available

6. Have limited selection of items available in shops.

I really like points 2, 3 and 4 of your post.

In my opinion the best Solution for a reduced diversity of DGs in MP battles (it alraedy annoys me when playing against 3 Regulus e.g. on a 3v3) is to make the demo-DGs chosen on a random basis each match. This way demo players can get a feeling of all 8 DGs but won't be able to play their favorite DG every time they play, giving an incentive to buy the retail version.

The limitation to skirmish would additionally motivate to buy the game in order to play with friends more often and to participate in the pantheon.

Additionally, make it possible for retail gamers to decide for themselves if they want to play together with demo users, maybe in form of a checkbox when playing skirmish or something like that.

Point 6 on the other hand has to be balanced carfully. In my opinion every item but the most expensive of each category (no God's plate etc.) should be available. Artifact store could be limited a bit more strictly by disallowing any item that costs more than e.g. 14.000 gold

In my opinion, the demo should be one map only (cataract seems to fit), 2 to 4 demigods, maybe a capped level (14?) and the demo players should be labeled as such.

a free weekend would also be interesting, but you have to be sure that your servers can handle the stress. Valve do that from time to time to promoter multiplayer games like TF2 or L4D. It also sounds like a good idea for Demigod: one weekend- the full game, and after having a quick taste, you can pay to keep playing.

All sounds good to me! For the demo, I'm thinking you could limit it in a number of ways (I'm not suggesting you do all).

Limit the number of demigods that the player can play with.

Choose their username for them to something boring DEMOUSER01 or something.

Limit the number of maps that they can play on.

Limit the number of game types custom only?

Limit the number of levels that their demigod can reach?

Limit the amount of time that they can use the demo. Lock the account they've been using (which you chose from them), and the only way they can unlock it is by buying the full version - just like many xbox live arcade games.

Great post and interesting news. I have concern about this statement, however:

"Fifth, Stardock is working on an update to Impulse Reactor that will allow people to have more control over the types of people people are matched up with. Think of it being like eHarmony but for gaming. You'll be able to describe the type of gamer you are and the match making system will pick out people for you. This feature is actually being developed for Elemental but because Demigod uses Impulse Reactor, it'll get that for free."

--- That sounds intriguing but remember NOT to fragment and factionalize the community too much or you may have matching problems again. On the other hand, if this is an attempt to allow random players to play with random players and arranged teams to play arranged teams, I support that.

My thoughts on a demo for Demigod:

Limited time - 3 days online (only count days actually played)
Give some free weekends etc

Make sure it is a branche of the current version with all the bug fixes etc. To make sure it stays 1 online community.

Maybe just allow people to select a Demigod after installing the Demo and then be locked to that Demigod? After reinstalling multiple times to test other Demigods, they will eventually buy the game?

Very nice update very surprised hopefully some good progress

I hope this resolves it for i am almost at my wits end. Practically me and every other aussie player I know spend HOURS literally every night TRYING to play. It is seriously the biggest joke of an online gaming system i have seen in a very long time.

*edit - how does giving us a coupon to buy another copy of the game thank us for the pain we have had to endure? How about allowing US to have 50% refunded for our pain. I swear to god, if i was working for you with the hours i had spent trying to actually play the damned game i'd already have annual leave accrued.

* double edit - i am shitty as all hell having just given up on trying to play my 2nd game for the night after over an hour of pissing around with connection issues in the lobbies. And no it's not my settings, it's games where we'll be stuck with yellow pingers, or 5 in the lobby patiently waiting for 30 mins while people magically cant join, rehosts, repeat bullshit x 100

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Demigod: Breakthru

Yes!