gg » Forum Post by aias

gg

why we need this, and need to let a team/individual concede defeat

By aias on April 24, 2009 7:30:32 AM from

If you've ever watched a starcraft match, you'll notice they nearly never play to the complete destruction of the other team. This is because of a simple thing, the concession of defeat by the defeated when it's obvious that they have lost. Here, we're facing a similar thing with demigod. People leaving the game once it becomes obvious to them they have lost, giving a concessing 'gg' is nothing terrible. You've won by concession. There is a problem in that right now in that it is a team game, and having one person speak for everyone else is unreasonable, and not fair to the team, because it leaves them with an AI in place of a real player.

So what we need is probably the ability to vote to concess. It's boring to stick around a game that you've obviously lost, being a substantial level below other players, being outgunned in resources, greater troops by the enemy making it impossible to stage a comeback, all of this stuff can add up to a lousy time for the losing team. Playing the whole thing out isn't neccesary. A day ago, I played a game on Crucible that we certainly lost. We were, 6 levels lower in total, had our towers, fortresses and archer towers destroyed (the first set, closest to the neutral center line of the map), were unable to hold any of the neutral flags, and they had purchased catapultsaurs against our priests. At this point I decided it was time to go, gave the enemy a gg, since I didn't want to go through a length loss fraught with long respawn times I couldn't afford to shorten because our income was low, and there were more pressing concerns.

This was met with...some sort of negative reaction by the enemy team. I get that they still wanted to play, but I didn't think it was necessary, a concession is enough in that or worse situations, I don't think we need to play the whole thing out if you're not having fun with it anymore, or it's obvious that you're going to lose. If you're having fun, if you're learning from your mistakes and consider it worthwile to play out every iota of the game, by all means do so, but I think a mechanism needs to be in place to allow concessions of defeat, and right now there is none.

I'm not sure how this should be implemented, right now I'm thinking a vote, but maybe there is a better way. As it stands right now, you're leaving the situation open to people quitting without any way to leave in a dignified manner, and we need that. It is a game, remember.

+10 Karma | 52 Replies

I'm all for concede votes going in.

Even if you concede defeat, the opposing team still has to fight the AI to win. Something that should be considered as well.

IMHO the best thing is to realise that we play on line to play with each other because it's fun.

that said, as long as someone's still having fun then, even if i've lost horribly, then i have a kinda duty to let them have their fun.

why do i do this?

because i want to game with a comunity that likes to have fun and encourges each other to that end.

now, more specifically, if I say GG and the other team wants to continue, i'll just send my DG to a corner and go check my mail or something (it helps to play in windowed mode).

there's a limit though. playing soase, i was 5 mins from losing and had to go do somehting. i said GG, to which i got a DON@T LEAVE!!. i said cool and walked away. came back 2 hours later and he was still playing just to see how uber he could get. by then, though he didn't want to finish, he thanked me and we started a new game.

'im not sure if a vote system can really sort this out, best just foster a comunity that respects each other.

/ramble

MrL

Quoting bug,

reply 2

Even if you concede defeat, the opposing team still has to fight the AI to win. Something that should be considered as well.

That's part of the point, is a mechanism, in the game, allowing a team to concede, that gives the other team a win.

oh!

yes, if peeps conceed and everyone's happy there should definitly be a surrender button.

Quoting mrlarone,

reply 3

IMHO the best thing is to realise that we play on line to play with each other because it's fun.

that said, as long as someone's still having fun then, even if i've lost horribly, then i have a kinda duty to let them have their fun.

why do i do this?

because i want to game with a comunity that likes to have fun and encourges each other to that end.

now, more specifically, if I say GG and the other team wants to continue, i'll just send my DG to a corner and go check my mail or something (it helps to play in windowed mode).

there's a limit though. playing soase, i was 5 mins from losing and had to go do somehting. i said GG, to which i got a DON@T LEAVE!!. i said cool and walked away. came back 2 hours later and he was still playing just to see how uber he could get. by then, though he didn't want to finish, he thanked me and we started a new game.

'im not sure if a vote system can really sort this out, best just foster a comunity that respects each other.

/ramble

MrL

What happened to you was basically a concession. Your RL issues prevented you from finishing a game you were on the verge of losing. And when you came back you restarted, probably because he was way too powerful to deal with at that point (in part at least). I think people having fun is the issue as well, forcing people to play a game they've clearly lost just sort of sucks. I get that the winning team is having a gas, they often are, but they need to allow the other team to leave if their end of the game sucks. And as it stands, they have no choice in the matter, and get nothing if the other team leaves. Not that this will give them a choice to play the whole thing out, but it will give them their victory, maybe that's not as satisfying, but it should be.

I get that you allowed him to keep playing by not leaving (even though in essence you did), and that was a concession to him, so that he had more opportunity to play, and I've stayed in games for other people myself, and I think people should do that some, but there's a limit. If 3 of the 4 people on your team want to leave, the game is essentially over. In fact, if 2 of the 4 leave, the game is essentially over, your team is crippled if two of them leave.

Which brings me to another point, if half of your team wants to leave (on games with even numbers of players on a team) I think you need to be able to concess. But I digress.

I think your point is that other people may want to continue to play, even if there's noone there to play against. That's fine, let the game continue after the concession, and the people who need to keep fighting until the final animation can do so, that seems perfectly fine. Supplant the defeated team with AI and they can go at it.

Or simply count it as a loss to the players who concess, and if the remaining players pull it out...more power to them.

for the mechanic of this game its possible to have great comeback

some demigod scales way better than other and so at lvl 20 could outperform even with less equip

i won a game 2 v2 where we started really badly, we were like lvl 16-15 and they were both lvl 20, the map was 90% for them too, with more mines and bonuses but couldnt push the last part of the map, as soon as we got flooded by troops and we lvled too we killed them about every time and won the game

one idea would be to look at the favour point system.

not sure if it's possible but i'd think the 'gods' would be more impressed with someone who fought to the last.

so, say there's a modification of favour point allocation once the teams come unbalanced. e.g. you starting get 1-10fp's for (demigod) kill you get.

basically a system that allows for you to lose the match (as seems inevitable) but still worthwile in terms of your ultimate goal of asscention to the pantheon (which i think is what SD and GPG where shooting for).

ubersmurf - not sure i really had a point in that post

In my opinion this is how it should work.

It's fun winning 2v3's and 1v3's in other tactical online games.

The real problem here is that AI in DG is pretty bad and if you get stuck w/ AI on your team, it's a massive disadvantage.

Quoting ddd888,

reply 7

for the mechanic of this game its possible to have great comeback

some demigod scales way better than other and so at lvl 20 could outperform even with less equip

i won a game 2 v2 where we started really badly, we were like lvl 16-15 and they were both lvl 20, the map was 90% for them too, with more mines and bonuses but couldnt push the last part of the map, as soon as we got flooded by troops and we lvled too we killed them about every time and won the game

I think that is a question of times and places. I have had a couple of great comebacks myself. I remember playing zikurat 4v4, the game started out fine, but eventually my team started to backslide. Eventually, we were nearly back at the citadel defending, and the other team I think thought they had it in the bag, but I went and captured a neutral portal flag, and drove into their territory and captured one of their portals, destroyed everything between the portals and the enemy citadel (both teams had giants at this point) and tried to get their other portal, I couldn't and had to retreat, but we won while I was walking back to my citadel to buy stuff and go at the other enemy citadel portal. So I know it's possible to have great comebacks, and they are particularly great considering the slippery slope the losing team is invariably on, but I think it's not always like that, I think the large majority of the time, the opportunity to win fades, and the opportunities for a comeback can dwindle to nothing.

And more importantly, people can stop having fun, and that's a problem. If your k/d is 0/6, you're not accumulating any gold nor are you able to keep and hold flags etc. It can just suck. I think often people in that situation should stay in the game for their teammates, since they're (likely) better than AI, but there are points after which you're just waiting for the game to end, have few options, and defeat is a matter of time.

Bloody coward ! Fight till death !

Quoting mrlarone,

reply 8

one idea would be to look at the favour point system.

not sure if it's possible but i'd think the 'gods' would be more impressed with someone who fought to the last.

so, say there's a modification of favour point allocation once the teams come unbalanced. e.g. you starting get 1-10fp's for (demigod) kill you get.

basically a system that allows for you to lose the match (as seems inevitable) but still worthwile in terms of your ultimate goal of asscention to the pantheon (which i think is what SD and GPG where shooting for).

ubersmurf - not sure i really had a point in that post

I think forcing (and I use that term loosely) someone to stay in a game they've stopped enjoying is a bad idea. Though a perk may be better than a punishment, and something like that could be added. Honestly I'm more likely to stay for the benefit of my team than myself, a loss of karma isn't going to bug me too much. I do care that others have a good time as well as myself, but I'm not going to do anything masochistic.

I wasn't sure the point either honestly I guess I just interpretted it...somehow

Quoting Eternal_Silence,

reply 9

If one of my partners gives a GG and "concedes" let him...but instead of letting him be controlled by AI, let me control his character as well as my own. Or if my other partner is better than me, let him control the other character as well as his own.

In my opinion this is how it should work.

It's fun winning 2v3's and 1v3's in other tactical online games.

The real problem here is that AI in DG is pretty bad and if you get stuck w/ AI on your team, it's a massive disadvantage.

Maybe that should be an option for the teammate that concesses, but controlling two of them seems like it might be difficult and impractical for the purposes of gameplay and implementation. But it doesn't seem like an unreasonable suggestion either.

Quoting Silencer8306,

reply 11

Bloody coward ! Fight till death !

Uh...it's not real, it's a game.

Quoting theubersmurf,

reply 14

Quoting Silencer8306,
reply 11
Bloody coward ! Fight till death ! Uh...it's not real, it's a game.

And that's humor

(btw i love your avatar )

Quoting Silencer8306,

reply 15

Quoting theubersmurf, reply 14

Quoting Silencer8306,
reply 11
Bloody coward ! Fight till death ! Uh...it's not real, it's a game.

And that's humor

(btw i love your avatar )

I'm glad to hear that, and thanks!

I'm against it. This will ruin most of the game as full games will never be played again.

I agree with the OP.

There should be an option to give the other team the win without having to watch you base get destroyed for minutes.

On the other hand, my experience so far is that once the chances of a turnaround are gone, the game ends very qiuckly. But yeah, it sucks when you want to give the other team the honor of defeating human players rather than AI's and then one of your teammates leaves. I'd say give us an option for a poll to concess and on top of that award the win to the dominant team anyway. If one player leaves, get a loss on his record.

Obviously, this can only be done once the damn netcode and network architecture is optimized/fully set up. I hope they will be finished soon, as my experience has somewhat suffered from the latest patch. Well, I'm in EU, maybe it's thanks to this new separate regions thing.

Anyway, once a leaving player is most probably leaving because either his computer/router crashes or he is doing it on purpose, I'd say it's okay to punish him and reward the other team appropriately. It's a matter of incentives. If a player can't get out of a losing game without actually getting a loss recorded, no matter what he does (pulling plugs, crashing the game on purpose,...) he'd probably stay anyway and try to throw it around somehow.

Here's my take on it:

Similar to DotA, I think you should play to the end. Leavers suck, end of story. However, people are going to leave anyways, regardless of what you do about it. So, I think as far as matchmaking goes (and favor points) you should be penalized more for leaving than for a loss. However, if all of your opponents leave I do think you should just be given your victory. Playing against an AI that's already losing isn't fun... it's just pointless.

Quoting TravCarp,

reply 17

I'm against it. This will ruin most of the game as full games will never be played again.

what are you against in particular?

personally my feelings on his avatar are neutral, but i certainly don't think it'll lead the game to ruin.

Quoting Moonlapse,

reply 19

Here's my take on it:

Similar to DotA, I think you should play to the end. Leavers suck, end of story. However, people are going to leave anyways, regardless of what you do about it. So, I think as far as matchmaking goes (and favor points) you should be penalized more for leaving than for a loss. However, if all of your opponents leave I do think you should just be given your victory. Playing against an AI that's already losing isn't fun... it's just pointless.

I don't entirely share your point of view, but doesn't a concession of defeat amount to the same thing? I don't want people to be penalized for leaving, there are too many network issues for that to be fair to all players.

Quoting TravCarp,

reply 17

I'm against it. This will ruin most of the game as full games will never be played again.

Does the final animation really matter that much? If you've won you've won, I don't see how it makes a difference.

Quoting Moonlapse,

reply 19

ya i agree... if your enemys leave you should win. In pantheon you shouldnt have to keep fighting AI just to make sure your standings (if working) remain in tact. Almost every other strategy game does this, why not demigod?

or you get favor points for an honorable loss.

or you lose favor points for leaving.

or both.

Quoting Aroddo,

reply 24

or you get favor points for an honorable loss.

or you lose favor points for leaving.

or both.

I like one but not two, like I said there are too many connection problems to penalize for leaving a game.

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gg

why we need this, and need to let a team/individual concede defeat