Unclean Beast player says UB needs balancing

...as in, an adjustment to his damage....downwards.

By Fractallicon on April 19, 2009 10:28:10 AM from

I may be wrong here...have only played Torchbearer once...but does he not have to max out the Fireball line to get a 1050, slowish casting fireball? Unclean Beast to me (I have played him in all but 1 custom game this weekend...and that was the only game my team lost) seems grossly overpowered compared to a DG whose sole purpose seems to be damage. At rank 3 of Venomous Spit, I am doing..what, 1050 or 1500 damage? I'm already matching or outdamaging the TB who should normally be a ranged-only DG.

I start the game with Swift Anklets and buy Boots of Speed right off the bat. Add in Venomous Spit, and I can harass the *hell* out of any other DG in the game. After that, I get the basic 5% +attack speed gloves...and start saving up for Heart of Life (4250 gold). Once I get HoL, it's all over. Yeah, I may still die....rarely..but for the most part I can fly around the map Spitting on DGs, retaking flags, annihilating creep waves, levelling and earning gold without worrying. Every 30 seconds, I can refill my HP and mana to full without going back to the crystal at base. Add in another set of gloves (Wyrmskin) and the Hauberk of Life and Vlemish Faceguard for +mana regen, and the UB becomes a fast-moving, hard-hitting ridiculous killing machine.

Torchbearer: A) Decent "sudden" damage at range with maxed out fireball, but it's slow to fire and does less damage than Spit when Spit is maxxed. Can't match UB's speed even with the same items due to Inner Beast.

Essentially, the TB does less damage at range (though he does it faster) and has to get into near-melee range to use things like Fire Nova or whatever the fire/ice Nova PBAoE spells are....which means, faced with Spit+Melee+Grasp...he's dead. The only thing that can save him is a good Sedna player healing him, or a QoT with Bramble Shield. But if they react too slow, and the Spit hits the UB...he''s gonna run. Guaranteed.

Overall I am thinking that UB's base melee damage needs to be lowered by about 10-15% to offset his ridiculous attack speed with items, and his Spit ability needs a good readjusting....on the order of about 20% when maxed, and maybe 10% less per rank before that. Alternately, TB needs a boost on his HP so he doesn't have to run every time he gets hit by a single Spit blast from a UB player.

Thoughts?

+3 Karma | 152 Replies

The only op thing about spit is that with putrid flow it beats uproot for the best fire and forget tower killing spell. If you want op abilties look no further then Bite.

Quoting MrPipe,

reply 25

Most of them who complain never heard of potions:> Stop crying and learn to handle all heroes.

Its not that people don't know of potions. I play UB only so far and i feel i am decent. I can take 3 DG's either in 3 1v1 or a 2v1 1v1 if they are also decent. Most DG tend to usetheir potions too quick. I go in, grasp, and let ooze and melee bring them to about half. Then they heal, i attack more and end witgha spit when they are near 1500. If they run they are dead anyway.

And to people who say Oak and Sedna aren't annoying, i feel oak, if skilled and armored properly kicks major ass. I played a game yesterday. We raped their whole team except for one Oak player who had major DPS. He killed our whole team and then raped our Citadel solo. And i mean raped. It was dead in less time than it takes to respawn, but he did have some giants with him lol

a good beast early game, will harrass people with spit al the time, this is deadly of lower hp target early game, especially spit lvl 2-3

considerign ub is suposed to be a melee fighter, its kinda stupid that spit is so destructive early game

thse peopel who think they now somwthign abotu the game says pot, buy pot, but they fail to reallize the 1-2 spit = 1 pot needed early game

its oblivious their buff for early spit was bad, its was already strong before

but its kinda hard to balance in a way, if they nerf spit, they might have to buff his melee abilities a bit, or soem base stats

I don't really see how you can say that the UB is "supposed to be" a melee fighter. His high-speed and low-hp is obviously designed for a quick-strike harrasment play-style.

Complaining about Beast's DoT is like complaining about Regulus' snipe, or TB's fireball that will track you across the map even if you teleport. A very simple way to undo Beast's poison, if you're low on health, is to teleport back to your healing crystal.

Aside from that, all I see in this post is people bragging how they mastered playing the Beast and how they feel uber against newbs. Perhaps (this goes to the original poster) you should put as much time into TB as you have into UB, and only then compare the two classes. From my personal experience, a properly played TB will not every let you touch him as UB. He will freeze you, he will burn you, he will shoot you from the distance. A well played and specced out TB can take on any UB, hands down.

I've played the game a lot and against good players over the course of the game UB can be killed with proper strategy.

I played a few Pantheon matches yesterday with the Beast and it was just entirely too easy. I used spit and chased them down until close to towers then retreated. I got the Diseased claws I and Inner Beast until I could get Foul Grasp. Once I got Foul Grasp it was over. Multiple times I would spit then melee and they would start to use a portal scroll and I would save Foul Grasp to interrupt it, then they died. I had 12+ kills in a slaughter match with no deaths. The very last boots + Crit Gloves and Crit Armor with the HoL. When in trouble the speed buff from the boots kicks in and I run away at a blistering pace and just pop HoL. Oh and spit is amazing against towers, maybe better than QoT's ability since the cooldown is shorter.

Odds are that the people I was playing against didn't know what they were doing, but it was still ridiculously easy.

If I were to change anything I would lower spit's dot and raise his melee damage to compensate. That way he has to stay in melee. Maybe reduce the range on Spit? I dunno I'm probably not good enough to know.

Just my 2 cents.

nerf spit

Again, its not unbalanced at all, its the player. I think its very funny how many posts include "I played a few games" or something to that effect. I have seen a variety of demigods own...its how you play.....play 50 games then have an opinion..........

Quoting wildwal,

reply 8

nerf spit

Spit's fine

Nerf complaints.

If you are looking at this issue from the perspective of Spit being better than fireball... well it IS better than fireball, but does that imbalance UB? I dunno, its a bit early to tell without some real organised matches or a competitive league going...

Spit should not be able to target buildings. That's the only issue with UB.

For reference, Spit is 164DPS vs. buildings. Uproot is 133DPS. This is lvl 4 for both. Uproot is building only, while spit can hit players to. So.. yeah.. spit shouldn't be able to hit buildings. He wrecks them good enough with bestial wrath.

except that your numbers are wrong. check again.

level 4 Uproot has a base of 2000 damage over 10 seconds, which is increased up to 3000 damage over 10 seconds if you've also got maxed out Compost.

300 dps is a much bigger number than 164 DPS. not sure where you got 133 from.

Quoting Harkonis,

reply 15

I'd like to see the spit do quite a bit less damage, keep the range and have a snare effect. Makes it slightly easier to catch up to people and use the beast's primary weapons and makes less of a focus on the spit.

As it is, spit is soooo much better than frenzy for example, that I find that not focusing on spit makes my UB feel weak.

I'd be fine with the spit doing the damage it does now if the scrolls in the store would cure plague/spit form a demigod, but they only affect the army troops.

I created a different build yesterday night focused mainly on melee abilities, equipment, favor items and artifacts, with Spit left in as a minor harassing weapon...or to splat on a fleeing demigod I was not going to chase. Suffice to say, taking a full health Tower down in under 4 seconds is sweet. So was surviving a fight with TWO Oak players, killing them both.

Quoting Xinoxlx,

reply 10

Quoting wildwal, reply 8nerf spit
Spit's fine

Nerf complaints.

Nerfing complaints is OP. There goes 1/2 the forum posts...

Honestly, the only DG I've played is UB, and the complaints against it are rather stupid, and don't hold a candle if put in a setting where the opposing team is even somewhat team-oriented (we all do know DG is a team game, right?).

Spit is UB's only early-game tool, basically a decent GTFO manuever, removing/nerfing it, coupled with its low HP would cripple UB. Besides, in the late game it wont kill anyone who's properly built--rather, it's a regen remover. UB's low HP results in other DG's easily being able to pop it with teamwork. Of course you'll die if you decide to 1v1 UB away from any and all support...that goes for most DGs as well. This game is about teamwork, and within that context, UB is nowhere near OP.

...so it's OK for one demigod to completely slaughter every other demigod and require teamwork to be defeated?!

...

WHAT THE F***?!

Quoting The_Regicide,

reply 16

...so it's OK for one demigod to completely slaughter every other demigod and require teamwork to be defeated?!

...

WHAT THE F***?!

I believe he meant UB just pops easily against teamwork. As in, he can be defeated otherwise too, but UB doesn't have many panic buttons nor health against ganking. Compare this to say, Erebus or Oak, who.. well, can't be taken easily even with teamwork, they have a higher chance to run away than UB.

I find that in Demigod dying rarely happens unless facing two or more or an enemy demigod is clearly ahead in exp and/or items. And UB is at disadvantage here, as beyond being fast it really can't do anything special to escape.

Artifacts cover any weakness nicely. Elfinkind anyone?

Quoting The_Regicide,

reply 18

Artifacts cover any weakness nicely. Elfinkind anyone?

Artifacts are also expensive. Items can be used to cover hero's weaknesses, but it always costs gold. And opponent demigods get items too.

I haven't had any more problems with UB than with any other demigods. Spit is the annoying bit especially early game, but it's not like other demigods can't harass. Of course UB can get a kill after a few spits if enemy DG is still hanging around on low health. On many demigods I'd rather face UB than Regulus for example. UB is way easier to counter than a kiting Regulus.

Quoting Keemossi,

reply 17

Compare this to say, Erebus or Oak, who.. well, can't be taken easily even with teamwork, they have a higher chance to run away than UB.

Not even remotely true. The same speed that allows UB to catch up to a fleeing Demigod is the same speed that will let him get away. Slightly before the midpoint in an average game, when I have the Heart of Life coupled with speed boots and Swift Anklets, you aren't killing me if I decide to run. Conversely, you aren't getting away if I decide to chase you down.

I feel the thread has gotten a bit out of hand. I started it regarding Spit's damage alone, and it has degenerated into the usual "OP/Not OP" and "Balanced/Imbalanced" stuff. I was only stating that at equivalent levels, UB's Spit ability is more damaging than the best spells of some purely ranged DGs. I stand by that claim, and I still think the ability itself needs to be given a once over.

I'm not calling for a general nerf or claiming the UB "pwnzors all".

Well, whether a skill is op or not also has a much to do how the demigod does in general. Yes, Spit is really good, basically no build should skip it atm. But most demigods have such skills. But Spit doesn't really make UB overpowered, and so I think it's balanced.

Admittedly especially UB early game is just running around and Spitting, UB rarely gets to melee demigods then. But if Spit were nerfed much, what could UB do against ranged demigods early game? Can't really run near towers, so melee is out. UB is fast, but usually not fast enough to close the gap when the other demigod backs off early. So Spit tends to be pretty much the only way to damage demigods (besides working in teams or enemy demigod overextending) while towers still are a threat.

Heh, sorry, I just like arguing

Quoting Keemossi,

reply 21

Heh, sorry, I just like arguing

No, don't apologize. I think it's great that someone who's able to think things through also has the patience to stick around in here and deal with this mess...

What if, instead of uber damage, spit had a 5/10/15/20% cripple for 10 seconds, and some minor DoT?

Ok, so spit does more damage then fireball. You're forgetting UB only has 2 nukes, both of which are DoT. TB has 4 nukes, 3 of which are near instant. He also has several AoE buffs/debuffs, as well an as AoE stun that is crazy against creeps AND a ranged interrupt that casts near instant.

UB is pretty much the best DG in the game at dealing damage, while TB is more of a support/utility role. I don't see a problem here.

Quoting The_Regicide,

reply 23

What if, instead of uber damage, spit had a 5/10/15/20% cripple for 10 seconds, and some minor DoT?

Yeh, but this wouldn't necessarily be a nerf but changing how the skill works. At least with those numbers UB early game would be a lot harder, 5/10% is so-so, especially if the range remains same. Basically, the movement speed reduction would have to be enough that UB, assuming it already has a slight movement speed advantage, would be able to reach enemy demigod on a relatively small distance. Otherwise UB would require heavy team support when facing a ranged demigod.

It's all up to numbers ofc. But imo the end result should be that UB gets to deal some noticeable amount of damage. A snare works a lot differently than a dot. It may allow UB to gain melee range, but it also allows UB's team mates to reach target easier. Also UB becomes a lot more vulnerable, as it probably have to run past enemy creeps, maybe an assisting enemy demigod etc. In a way I would like UB get more chances to melee earlier, but changing Spit like this would also take something away from UB's hit and run style.

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Unclean Beast player says UB needs balancing

...as in, an adjustment to his damage....downwards.