Unclean Beast player says UB needs balancing

...as in, an adjustment to his damage....downwards.

By Fractallicon on April 19, 2009 10:28:10 AM from

I may be wrong here...have only played Torchbearer once...but does he not have to max out the Fireball line to get a 1050, slowish casting fireball? Unclean Beast to me (I have played him in all but 1 custom game this weekend...and that was the only game my team lost) seems grossly overpowered compared to a DG whose sole purpose seems to be damage. At rank 3 of Venomous Spit, I am doing..what, 1050 or 1500 damage? I'm already matching or outdamaging the TB who should normally be a ranged-only DG.

I start the game with Swift Anklets and buy Boots of Speed right off the bat. Add in Venomous Spit, and I can harass the *hell* out of any other DG in the game. After that, I get the basic 5% +attack speed gloves...and start saving up for Heart of Life (4250 gold). Once I get HoL, it's all over. Yeah, I may still die....rarely..but for the most part I can fly around the map Spitting on DGs, retaking flags, annihilating creep waves, levelling and earning gold without worrying. Every 30 seconds, I can refill my HP and mana to full without going back to the crystal at base. Add in another set of gloves (Wyrmskin) and the Hauberk of Life and Vlemish Faceguard for +mana regen, and the UB becomes a fast-moving, hard-hitting ridiculous killing machine.

Torchbearer: A) Decent "sudden" damage at range with maxed out fireball, but it's slow to fire and does less damage than Spit when Spit is maxxed. Can't match UB's speed even with the same items due to Inner Beast.

Essentially, the TB does less damage at range (though he does it faster) and has to get into near-melee range to use things like Fire Nova or whatever the fire/ice Nova PBAoE spells are....which means, faced with Spit+Melee+Grasp...he's dead. The only thing that can save him is a good Sedna player healing him, or a QoT with Bramble Shield. But if they react too slow, and the Spit hits the UB...he''s gonna run. Guaranteed.

Overall I am thinking that UB's base melee damage needs to be lowered by about 10-15% to offset his ridiculous attack speed with items, and his Spit ability needs a good readjusting....on the order of about 20% when maxed, and maybe 10% less per rank before that. Alternately, TB needs a boost on his HP so he doesn't have to run every time he gets hit by a single Spit blast from a UB player.

Thoughts?

+3 Karma | 152 Replies

I don't believe items should be used for balancing purposes. If a skill has issue it should be changed.

Quoting Fractallicon,

reply 7

Quoting Luv3rboy, reply 2You are correct on most of the points you brought up. While there are ways to make UB an extremely powerful character, you can totally screw up on some points and never be able to come back.

Personally, I have found that as long as you max out Spit and Inner Beast, with a point in Grasp...you've got 75% of the Unclean Beast's potential unlocked right there. Any other choice in point distribution comes down to playstyle.

that is true, but my first time playing i wnet for full ooze first and never gained a lvl past 6 lol, now im all about the spit + inner, then i get + health per second armor and glovbes to use ooze, i rarely get grasp though, not until 15 lol

Quoting Vid-szhite,

reply 14

He also HAS a really powerful melee ability that stuns the enemy while it drains their HP. It does a LOT of damage. I don't think you really play UB, do you? You would know this stuff if you did.

Yes, I do. Re-read my original post. I mention his (Foul) Grasp ability, which is mainly useful for its stun component. It actually doesn't do that much damage, far less than Spit does (or even base melee damage over the same period of time). I'll turn the question around; do YOU play UB at all? If you did, you wouldn't think Grasp did anything useful beyond interrupting and stunning your enemy. The heal/lifedrain is...meh. And I know his melee damage is tremendous.

How, exactly, did you not get that from reading my posts?

Quoting pyrosmurfs,

reply 19

I'm also an UB player and I will say that he's fine as-is.

Perhaps it would open your eyes a little if you were to play the TB more than -ONCE-. He's the one I feel is the real play-maker on the assassin side but would never call for a nerf. Sometimes I wonder about these people who feel something is too OP and what their intentions really are. Especially if they're calling it on "their most played/preferred class". I guess I could assume you're a completely selfless and righteous person, a do-gooder for all that is fair and balanced... but this is the interwebs, after all.

I'm not righteous. I'm simply saying that on average, I find the combination of an easily attainable, high damage, medium range DoT on a mainly melee character is a design...oddity. Nothing more. And you're right, this being the "interwebs" I already have a bunch of people waving their e-phallus at me, telling me that they understand the class and game mechanics better than I do etcetera etetera....

I'll just let it drop, go play and kill them instead.

Quoting The_Regicide,

reply 22

Spits, runs in, grasps, berserks and slashes you for a bajillion damage. You somehow manage to run away, but can't use Heart of Life for a minute or so due to the plague. Yeah, I'd say it's kinda OP.

This guy is getting it.

don't be silly. you can't run away from Beast. he runs faster than you, definitely. his attacks slow you down passively. running won't stop DoT damage anyway. don't even try to run from beast. once he's on you in melee only one of you is walking out of there alive.

Quoting transitive,

reply 6

yeah, but if u have at least 1/3 of ur health or we feel u will die from Dot, a UB might not chase, especially if u r running into ur base defneses. UB is a fast DG but if we see a possible scenary where we may die, we run away not chase. UB is the perfect fast attack, rape you, run away. Not the run in, rape you, and chase you past ur towers where we get raped ourselves.

So while you can't run from UB, there are many situations where UB will just let u go.

Which is why you don't go wandering alone, there's a Beast lurking outside. For most part of the games, if you're close enough to towers, you're relatively safe even is UB is faster than you.

And mostly every demigod has answers to UB harassing.

Oak has shield, and his passive skill helps recover from spit too.

Erebus.. well, really, Erebus can run away from anything. But mistform negates spit easily.

Queen's shield negates spit.

Rook may have some trouble with UB. But if UB misses with stun, it'll get Slammed, and Rook is tough in melee. Besides, Rook can have his own towers nearby.

Erebus has range and mines. Erebus can harass UB back, just staying near towers is even more important.

Sedna has passive and active heal, and is just so annoyingly durable she shouldn't have that much problem with Spit.

I imagine Torch bearer could also have trouble with UB. But TB has his own slow and stun, plus good ranged damage, so with harassing it should go pretty even at best.

UB is very offensive demigod, but doesn't really have any defensive skills. It's just common sense to stay close to towers. Melee classes are naturally at disadvantage versus ranged classes, they should also be more deadly once they get to melee range.

Edit.. took so long to write this Luv3rboy already pretty much said it all, in a tighter package

quoting Luv3rboy:

So while you can't run from UB, there are many situations where UB will just let u go.

----------------

absolutely correct. but thats up to the Beast, not up to the victim. if a beast wants to chase you you can't get away. the chase only ends when one of you is dead.

Quoting transitive,

reply 9

quoting Luv3rboy:
So while you can't run from UB, there are many situations where UB will just let u go.
----------------
absolutely correct. but thats up to the Beast, not up to the victim. if a beast wants to chase you you can't get away. the chase only ends when one of you is dead.

It is up to you to convince the Beast not to chase you. It isn't an issue of the Beast feeling generous or kind-hearted at the moment. If the Beast "lets you go" he probably had a very good reason for doing so.

Static defenses are a major threat to a Beast due to his low health. Sure, he is faster than you and could catch/kill you by the time you reach your health crystal, but he can't survive the beating towers will give him. I've probably played more Beast than any other Demi at this point and I can definately state that towers scare the living daylights out of me. They do quite a bit of damage that the Beast can't stop. As stated above, he is entirely offensive with little to no defensive ability.

Basically, if he "lets you go" it is probably because he would have died chasing you. Just getting behind a tower or two is usually enough to deter a wounded Beast from chasing you down. Remember, he not only has to close the distance, but finish killing you and run all the way back out. That's a lot of time to be pelted by lasers.

Quoting Random_Guy,

reply 10

Quoting transitive,
reply 9
quoting Luv3rboy:
So while you can't run from UB, there are many situations where UB will just let u go.
----------------
absolutely correct. but thats up to the Beast, not up to the victim. if a beast wants to chase you you can't get away. the chase only ends when one of you is dead.

It is up to you to convince the Beast not to chase you. It isn't an issue of the Beast feeling generous or kind-hearted at the moment. If the Beast "lets you go" he probably had a very good reason for doing so.

Static defenses are a major threat to a Beast due to his low health. Sure, he is faster than you and could catch/kill you by the time you reach your health crystal, but he can't survive the beating towers will give him. I've probably played more Beast than any other Demi at this point and I can definately state that towers scare the living daylights out of me. They do quite a bit of damage that the Beast can't stop. As stated above, he is entirely offensive with little to no defensive ability.

Basically, if he "lets you go" it is probably because he would have died chasing you. Just getting behind a tower or two is usually enough to deter a wounded Beast from chasing you down. Remember, he not only has to close the distance, but finish killing you and run all the way back out. That's a lot of time to be pelted by lasers.

This. About the only thing that will stop me from chasing another player is towers. Hammer slam? I'll Grasp stun before Rook can get it off. Regulus? He's a pain, but at best it's a standoff. I'll Spit him, he'll Snipe me, and we'll go our separate ways...until I can sneak up on him (if he has the Goggles for Sniping, I imagine that won't happen). Sedna and Oak are my biggest pains really. The other DG *can* negate damage, but for the most part your assesment is correct. If someone survives a fight with UB it's usually because the UB broke it off to save his own hide.

I just played my first match as unclean beast and was surprised how easy it was to dominate. I'd been struggling thus far and occasionally getting wins as oak/rook/torchbearer, so I really wasn't expecting it to be so easy. The venom spit + fast attack speed leads to so many DG kills and therefore more gold, it's a slippery slope. I haven't played as the beast enough to have any good suggestions on how to balance it but I think something needs to be done.

Hrm?

Of course a good UB is scary, but that's the same for any DG (except maybe Sedna).

I play Rook and Regulus often, and I find UB not too much of a problem with either. As Rook his low hp means he can't tank my towers/hammer slam, and spit does little to my massive hp. As Regulus, my mines + MotB mean he usually loses 1/2 or 3/4 of his HP before he gets a spit off, so he either runs away real fast or dies half the time.

And yes, I do do a lot of running away with Regulus and Rook against UB, but that's no different from any other DG.

Quoting liq3,

reply 13

Hrm? Of course a good UB is scary, but that's the same for any DG (except maybe Sedna).

Sedna scares me. A lot.

I'd like to see the spit do quite a bit less damage, keep the range and have a snare effect. Makes it slightly easier to catch up to people and use the beast's primary weapons and makes less of a focus on the spit.

As it is, spit is soooo much better than frenzy for example, that I find that not focusing on spit makes my UB feel weak.

I'd be fine with the spit doing the damage it does now if the scrolls in the store would cure plague/spit form a demigod, but they only affect the army troops.

Also, am I incorrect in saying that TB actually has some scaling issues during the later stages of the game, so perhaps a comparisson to TB might not be the most fair?

This sounds a lot like a buff TB post. ( I think that is definately accurate though that TB needs help.....with casting times or something)

Is it me or is TB's caster itemization shitty ? Carry heroes = regulus / UB

It's not impossible to get a UB to stop chasing you. Sometimes you can even use this chase mentality to your advantage. If you're having a problem killing one, you're not fighting one properly. I dominate UBs ten times more often than they dominate me. In fact, only one UB I've ever faced really sticks out in my mind and his team still lost the game.

1 UB + 1 TB + 1 AI UB = we got owned

I only play Oak so far, but I cant for the life of me figure out why UB has so much speed built in. Between stuns, damage over time, and the speed, you cant stop them without great coordination.

Looking back I would say the best strategy for this would to be kill spam their UB. But the problem is, even the AI UB's play right! They run away the moment they are at a disadvantage, where our Regulus was just shooting at thing until he was past half health, and then he died every time.

---

Actually now that I think about it, the way ive been playing Oak - UB is the rock to my scissors... he prevents me from getting off my crucial abilities that put me on top of a fight and so I can't ever win against a well played one without a head start or good backup.

Your can choose the favor item Symboly of Purity. Theres better items for sure but if you find it that hard to deal with the spit theres a way to help every 30 or 45 sec whatever the cooldown is.

Quoting MrThePlague,

reply 12

Yes, you are now perfectly qualified to make these assessments. Come on people! Use some judgment and give it at least a month before taking up your pitch forks and torches. I see so few rational level headed people on these forums, I think you could take everyone else and mush them together to form one of the new Demigods.

If I was more clever I'd even write up a bio and make powers for this new shambling creature, but for now I'll just call him Overreactasaurus. Yeah, he'd be a dinosaur. We need more of those around here. The catapultasauri can't cut it on their own.

Quoting Bluegobln,

reply 19

1 UB + 1 TB + 1 AI UB = we got owned

I only play Oak so far, but I cant for the life of me figure out why UB has so much speed built in. Between stuns, damage over time, and the speed, you cant stop them without great coordination.

Looking back I would say the best strategy for this would to be kill spam their UB. But the problem is, even the AI UB's play right! They run away the moment they are at a disadvantage, where our Regulus was just shooting at thing until he was past half health, and then he died every time.

---

Actually now that I think about it, the way ive been playing Oak - UB is the rock to my scissors... he prevents me from getting off my crucial abilities that put me on top of a fight and so I can't ever win against a well played one without a head start or good backup.

Funny, because me (Regulus) + Sedna + QoT just owned that exact same team you described. They had two human UBs though. I got a 7-kill streak, the sedna got a 12-kill streak. The QoT didn't kill anybody, but she used her shield on us a whole lot.

Spit can be countered with healing potions and debuff removals. Fireball can not.

Also you can't stack spits. With -cooldown items and flag TB does fireball every 3 seconds.

You can't stack spits.

Sighhh. Getting annoyed at people who don't know how to play saying things are imba.

But yes, spit is great early on for telling people to gtfo away flags, or adding to your dps in a fight.

My only complaint is watching myself die slowly, hehe.

I think it's perfect and should just have less of a duration for less frustration factor.

Most of them who complain never heard of potions:> Stop crying and learn to handle all heroes.

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Unclean Beast player says UB needs balancing

...as in, an adjustment to his damage....downwards.