Unclean Beast player says UB needs balancing

...as in, an adjustment to his damage....downwards.

By Fractallicon on April 19, 2009 10:28:10 AM from

I start the game with Swift Anklets and buy Boots of Speed right off the bat. Add in Venomous Spit, and I can harass the *hell* out of any other DG in the game. After that, I get the basic 5% +attack speed gloves...and start saving up for Heart of Life (4250 gold). Once I get HoL, it's all over. Yeah, I may still die....rarely..but for the most part I can fly around the map Spitting on DGs, retaking flags, annihilating creep waves, levelling and earning gold without worrying. Every 30 seconds, I can refill my HP and mana to full without going back to the crystal at base. Add in another set of gloves (Wyrmskin) and the Hauberk of Life and Vlemish Faceguard for +mana regen, and the UB becomes a fast-moving, hard-hitting ridiculous killing machine.

Torchbearer: A) Decent "sudden" damage at range with maxed out fireball, but it's slow to fire and does less damage than Spit when Spit is maxxed. Can't match UB's speed even with the same items due to Inner Beast.

Essentially, the TB does less damage at range (though he does it faster) and has to get into near-melee range to use things like Fire Nova or whatever the fire/ice Nova PBAoE spells are....which means, faced with Spit+Melee+Grasp...he's dead. The only thing that can save him is a good Sedna player healing him, or a QoT with Bramble Shield. But if they react too slow, and the Spit hits the UB...he''s gonna run. Guaranteed.

Overall I am thinking that UB's base melee damage needs to be lowered by about 10-15% to offset his ridiculous attack speed with items, and his Spit ability needs a good readjusting....on the order of about 20% when maxed, and maybe 10% less per rank before that. Alternately, TB needs a boost on his HP so he doesn't have to run every time he gets hit by a single Spit blast from a UB player.

Thoughts?

0 Karma | 152 Replies

I've yet to see human controlled UB not be seriously dangerous early game.

Rooks are very easy to play badly early game.

Reg is so easly squished its not funny early game.

Generals are also obviously weak early game.

You are correct on most of the points you brought up. While there are ways to make UB an extremely powerful character, you can totally screw up on some points and never be able to come back. Also, other assassins can have an advantage of UB. Rook can stun, Regulus can track and then kill with his extreme speed and range and attacks on the move. Othe DG can also have advantages over UB, they just have to choose armor and skills wisely.

So you are right when u say UB have major DoT with venom spit, but there are ways to control and prevent UB from dominating.

That same Boots/Anklet (and I usually get Wand of Speed too) combo makes any DG dangerously manuverable. Spit is nasty but most DGs (especially Oak and Sedna) can counter the damage from it.

You also have to be very careful with Heart of Life on a melee DG. So very easy to interrupt the healing.

This post honestly sounds like a TB player crying about UB. UB is meant to be a harassing character. If you over extend yourself, you are screwed. Playing against a good rook, Oak or Sedna I usualy get squashed. If any other character wants to sit and melee me they are going to die. You have to learn the strong points of your character.

I disagree polis59. He brings up a good point. Why is the most damaging long ranged spell on a melee character?

Quoting polis59,

reply 4

Sorry, no. I play the Unclean Beast almost exclusively, and I feel I've got him pretty much down pat. I often come out tops in damage and kills in games, and this is even at level 14 or 15. I'm not saying the UB needs to be nerfed into the ground; I'm just saying it makes no sense for him to be able to outdamage a ranged DG like the Torchbearer (and with 4th rank and above Venomous Spit, he does. ) when he is, in fact, a melee class.

@weeble1; Agreed, it's easy to interrupt the regen effect from Heart of Life once triggered. This is why, as soon as I see my health go into Orange and hear that spasm-inducing heartbeat sound, I point my UB away from the fight and run. With a minimum 25% bonus to movement speed, it takes 3 seconds or so to clear any fight...then hit F1 for HoL and wait 3-4 seconds, full HP and mana....back to the fight. 7 seconds or so max before I can go from near dead to re-engaging a wounded, near-dead enemy every 30 seconds. What's not to like?

Hmm...ya know, I'm wondering now if the damage ticks from Spit would count as "damage taken" to interrupt the effects of Heart of Life on other DGs. If so...that's awful. They have to either run and let Spit play itself out, or use HoL and waste most of its effect because of the Spit dmg ticks.

EDIT: Just so it's clear; I know that Torchbearer's 1050 max fireball is true "burst damage" and that it's a one-shot, huge amount of damage. That's a mitigating factor when looking at the overall damage disparity between Fireball and Spit. It's just that Spit is still fire-and-forget. Once it lands on you, you're going to take that 1500 damage unless you're shielded or have Sedna healing you. So despite the longer time to deliver the damage...fact is, a melee DG still has a better ranged damage spell than a ranged DG.

Quoting Luv3rboy,

reply 2

You are correct on most of the points you brought up. While there are ways to make UB an extremely powerful character, you can totally screw up on some points and never be able to come back.

Personally, I have found that as long as you max out Spit and Inner Beast, with a point in Grasp...you've got 75% of the Unclean Beast's potential unlocked right there. Any other choice in point distribution comes down to playstyle.

Quoting AngryZealot,

reply 5

I disagree polis59. He brings up a good point. Why is the most damaging long ranged spell on a melee character?

It's not exactly *long* ranged. Fireball still has a longer range, as does almost all of Regulus's abilities. The problem is, played well the Unclean Beast is so fast and that he can afford to take the hit, close the gap, Spit, and run. I know that he's meant to be a harassing DG and so that's as it should be...but given that he CAN close the distance, Spit and live...shouldn't his ranged ability therefore do less damage than a pure ranged Demigod?

I just feel that, as a primarily melee-based DG, I should be holding my breath when I decide to commit and take Torchbearer or Regulus's best hit. I don't. I just shrug it off, deliver my superior damage, and run away before they have a prayer of finishing me.

Give it time the game is 4 days and counting old.... Not everyone has tried every possible combination of all the demigods with every possible combination of items combined with skill builds....

Though you may have found something that works often (I have too as I only play UB atm but that's primarily because UB is the only pure melee class) Yes he has puke and is a harassing demon but regulus can drop you after a rook hammer, etc... once teamwork is factored in, NO single demigod becomes a true threat.

HoL and anything that breaks upon damage is affected by all damage. So yes, spit breaks it, plague breaks it, Rook archers break it, even reinforcements break it.

i don't think its a good idea to try and evaluate Unclean Beast by comparing him to Torchbearer. i think we should be thinking about general game balance. i'd only say a Demigod is unbalanced if they have a clear advantage over EVERY demigod. having one ability thats better than another DG's somewhat similar ability doesn't mean that much. you'd have to look at the whole package. Torchbearer, for example, has much more AoE damage than beast. He also has a ranged regular attack and some very strong passive buff auras that support his team. There are alot of differences between the two DGs such that strictly comparing Venom Spit to Fireball doesn't really help understand the balance.

Quoting transitive,

reply 11

strict equality is not a desirable state of the game, the differences make things interesting. its possible than some adjustments should be made but i think its too early to tell. Maybe fireball needs a longer range or a shorter cast time. maybe Spit should have its mana cost increased a little or its damage decreased a little. i'm not willing to make a judgment about it yet. for the moment i say it should be left alone pending more evidence.

i don't think its a good idea to try and evaluate Unclean Beast by comparing him to Torchbearer. i think we should be thinking about general game balance. i'd only say a Demigod is unbalanced if they have a clear advantage over EVERY demigod. having one ability thats better than another DG's somewhat similar ability doesn't mean that much. you'd have to look at the whole package. Torchbearer, for example, has much more AoE damage than beast. He also has a ranged regular attack and some very strong passive buff auras that support his team. There are alot of differences between the two DGs such that strictly comparing Venom Spit to Fireball doesn't really help understand the balance.

Hmm, I suppose so. I would just prefer my melee DG not to be be feared primarily because of his medium range attack. Gimme a high damage ability called Maul or some other fun melee attack. Maybe Hindleg Hoist or something...ya know, UB gets in melee range, lifts the back leg and pees noxious, fuming green urine on you. I can just imagine the guy sitting in front of his PC at home; "He killed me with his pee...he PEED on me!!!"

quoting post

I may be wrong here...have only played Torchbearer once...but does he not have to max out the Fireball line to get a 1050, slowish casting fireball? Unclean Beast to me (I have played him in all but 1 custom game this weekend...and that was the only game my team lost) seems grossly overpowered compared to a DG whose sole purpose seems to be damage. At rank 3 of Venomous Spit, I am doing..what, 1050 or 1500 damage? I'm already matching or outdamaging the TB who should normally be a ranged-only DG.

I start the game with Swift Anklets and buy Boots of Speed right off the bat. Add in Venomous Spit, and I can harass the *hell* out of any other DG in the game. After that, I get the basic 5% +attack speed gloves...and start saving up for Heart of Life (4250 gold). Once I get HoL, it's all over. Yeah, I may still die....rarely..but for the most part I can fly around the map Spitting on DGs, retaking flags, annihilating creep waves, levelling and earning gold without worrying. Every 30 seconds, I can refill my HP and mana to full without going back to the crystal at base. Add in another set of gloves (Wyrmskin) and the Hauberk of Life and Vlemish Faceguard for +mana regen, and the UB becomes a fast-moving, hard-hitting ridiculous killing machine.

Torchbearer: A) Decent "sudden" damage at range with maxed out fireball, but it's slow to fire and does less damage than Spit when Spit is maxxed. Can't match UB's speed even with the same items due to Inner Beast.

Essentially, the TB does less damage at range (though he does it faster) and has to get into near-melee range to use things like Fire Nova or whatever the fire/ice Nova PBAoE spells are....which means, faced with Spit+Melee+Grasp...he's dead. The only thing that can save him is a good Sedna player healing him, or a QoT with Bramble Shield. But if they react too slow, and the Spit hits the UB...he''s gonna run. Guaranteed.

Overall I am thinking that UB's base melee damage needs to be lowered by about 10-15% to offset his ridiculous attack speed with items, and his Spit ability needs a good readjusting....on the order of about 20% when maxed, and maybe 10% less per rank before that. Alternately, TB needs a boost on his HP so he doesn't have to run every time he gets hit by a single Spit blast from a UB player.

Thoughts?

With Regulus using Mines III and Mark of the Betrayer I'm doing 1200-1800 damage. If there's any problem here, it's with Torchbearer, not UB. UB has one of the lowest HP totals of any demigod. If you know what you're doing, you can easily defeat him. I've only seen one UB be any threat to me, and I could still beat him.

Quoting Fractallicon,

reply 12

Quoting transitive, reply 11strict equality is not a desirable state of the game, the differences make things interesting. its possible than some adjustments should be made but i think its too early to tell. Maybe fireball needs a longer range or a shorter cast time. maybe Spit should have its mana cost increased a little or its damage decreased a little. i'm not willing to make a judgment about it yet. for the moment i say it should be left alone pending more evidence.

i don't think its a good idea to try and evaluate Unclean Beast by comparing him to Torchbearer. i think we should be thinking about general game balance. i'd only say a Demigod is unbalanced if they have a clear advantage over EVERY demigod. having one ability thats better than another DG's somewhat similar ability doesn't mean that much. you'd have to look at the whole package. Torchbearer, for example, has much more AoE damage than beast. He also has a ranged regular attack and some very strong passive buff auras that support his team. There are alot of differences between the two DGs such that strictly comparing Venom Spit to Fireball doesn't really help understand the balance.

Hmm, I suppose so. I would just prefer my melee DG not to be be feared primarily because of his medium range attack. Gimme a high damage ability called Maul or some other fun melee attack. Maybe Hindleg Hoist or something...ya know, UB gets in melee range, lifts the back leg and pees noxious, fuming green urine on you. I can just imagine the guy sitting in front of his PC at home; "He killed me with his pee...he PEED on me!!!"

Just because his medium range attack does good damage doesn't mean that's what everyone fears about him. For one thing, that range attack is almost pure DoT. That 1500 damage you mention happens over a period of 10 seconds, so while it's good damage, it's not burst damage. It's meant to supplement his melee DPS and finish off runners. UB is a terrifying melee combatant, and I don't think anyone would say they fear his Venom Spit for any reason other than it sneaks up on you. He also HAS a really powerful melee ability that stuns the enemy while it drains their HP. It does a LOT of damage. I don't think you really play UB, do you? You would know this stuff if you did.

UB is far from OP

Not at all, a player who plays most the other demigods well can deal with UB. It seems quite balanced. I have been on both sides and it really comes down to the player.

heart is op though gief heart nerf

whats the stats on Torch bearers +attack/move speed passive skill? i'd be willing to bet he can pick up some decent speed

infact just gonna go off and test it now

swift anklets + 15% boots = 8.7 10.2 with the wand of speed, and if u get hit, theres a high chance it goes up to 13.7.. thats an insane speed to be running about.. shame how pathetic Fire TB damage is late game

I'm also an UB player and I will say that he's fine as-is.

Perhaps it would open your eyes a little if you were to play the TB more than -ONCE-. He's the one I feel is the real play-maker on the assassin side but would never call for a nerf. Sometimes I wonder about these people who feel something is too OP and what their intentions really are. Especially if they're calling it on "their most played/preferred class". I guess I could assume you're a completely selfless and righteous person, a do-gooder for all that is fair and balanced... but this is the interwebs, after all.

It's only dangerous against low HP builds. Any tank build is going to have at least 20+ hp regen by the time you're level 10, which means it's down to 1300 damage.

Also, Regulus with mines and MotB can get out 3600 damage + 70% slow. This is far worse then spit, is probably a death sentence for that DG.

Also, spit has nothing on a tank Rook. He'll have so much regen and health he'll just shrug it off.

What's REALLY scary is Spit + Ooze + Stun.

Quoting liq3,

reply 20

It's only dangerous against low HP builds. Any tank build is going to have at least 20+ hp regen by the time you're level 10, which means it's down to 1300 damage.

Also, Regulus with mines and MotB can get out 3600 damage + 70% slow. This is far worse then spit, is probably a death sentence for that DG.

Also, spit has nothing on a tank Rook. He'll have so much regen and health he'll just shrug it off.

What's REALLY scary is Spit + Ooze + Stun.

have you played rook? he's mana heavy if you want to kill a demigod

Spits, runs in, grasps, berserks and slashes you for a bajillion damage. You somehow manage to run away, but can't use Heart of Life for a minute or so due to the plague. Yeah, I'd say it's kinda OP.

Quoting woca,

reply 21

have you played rook? he's mana heavy if you want to kill a demigod

I know. Vlemish Faceguard + Plenor Battlecrown fixes most mana problems, and it's only 3250 gold for both items.

Quoting The_Regicide,

reply 22

Spits, runs in, grasps, berserks and slashes you for a bajillion damage. You somehow manage to run away, but can't use Heart of Life for a minute or so due to the plague. Yeah, I'd say it's kinda OP.

A tele scroll will get you back to base in 4 seconds (1 second to use it) and once you're at base spit is removed, as well as plauge.

I've said this before but I'll say it again.

The solution for Venomous Spit is to double the duration but keep the overall damage the same, effectively halving the DPS.

Why not make that scroll cheaper that can cure the plague?

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Unclean Beast player says UB needs balancing

...as in, an adjustment to his damage....downwards.