a few thoughts about how to make Demigod a successful e-sport game

By TheBigOne on March 31, 2009 6:41:20 AM from

There are some who say that Demigod has "not enough depth" or is "too easy to master" to become a successful E-Sport game. For those who think that is true, let me tell you a little Episode from the Year 2004: Giga TV, a german gaming Television hosted a league called "Giga League". In the first Season they picked 4 Games to be played : CS, UT, Warcraft III and Starcraft Broodwar. As the activity in the qualifiers was rather low they decided to have a qualifier between different games for the next seasons so only CS and Warcraft III were in automatically and all other games had to do a knockout-style tournament to have their game in the finals. The Price pot was about 6000 Euro per game I think. In the 2nd Season Starcraft had to face Worms 2. Worms 2 won and 3 Worms players got the 6000 Euro. I think we all can agree that Worms 2 isn't really a game suited for E-Sport and even less suited for having it commented in Television. The Worms 2 Community was also a lot smaller than the Starcraft Community, but they were a lot better at mobilizing so for outsiders they seemed to have a huge community. In the months after that a lot other online leagues had (smaller) cups for worms 2 as well as a result of this. The Cohesion, Organization and Activity of a Community is at least as important as their size

Demigod is a lot better suited for E-sports than Worms 2 and if it gets a Community large enough to have at least about 2500 players online at the same time in average, Demigod really can be established as "The Counterstrike of RTS". However simply having that Community Size is not enough. Demigod needs a good e-sport concept if this has a chance to become Reality. There are 2 ways to achieve it. Either you do the EA or Sierra way and spend lots of money on a concept which leads to an active e-sport community for a few months or a year at best (like in World in Conflict or all the C&C parts) but after that time the game in dead in multiplayer. Or you can have a smart low-budget concept which keeps the multiplayer and e-sport community alive for a lot longer.

When I speak of supporting E-sport I don't mean putting money into a few top players/teams in the first place. As all sports the foundation of e-sport is the large playerbase who enjoys multiplayer and enjoys playing a tournament or a league just for fun. So the most important thing is to cater those players by providing a tournament/league infrastructure and small incentives to participate - be that awards/icons or maybe a 10$ voucher for impulse a random participant of a tournament gets; Its crucial that everyone profits in some way, not only the top players or you will have a hardcore player only e-sport population in Demigod. Games like World in Conflict failed because there was only a few "pro" teams who played the game competively without having a large foundation .It was like having the champions league but no premier league, no 2nd division and no 8th division.

Secondly, Money Tournaments don't need very high prize purses to attract players. I have seen the whole non-korean starcraft experts playing tournaments with only had 100$ for the 1st place. Right now the ESL runs a Major Series (Qualification Tournament, Group Stage and Knockout Tournament) which has a total prize purse of 1000 Euro - enough to get the attention of everyone and all the major e-sport coverage sites. Now if you compare that to the two 5000$ Tournaments GPG hosted for Supreme Commander, they were very nice indeed for the SupCom Community, but it was a large sum which gave no return of investment in form of being covered by the e-sport media. So all tournaments should be hosted in cooperation with an established e-sport league. As the WCG is at least 2 orders of Magnitude to big, and both CPL and ESWC are having big financial troubles, that means in cooperation with the ESL. With sponsored External Tournaments Stardock has the chance to not only advertise Demigod but also Impulse while internal tournaments only get noticed by existing customers.

Its a bit of a crazy idea but what about sponsoring a 250$ Starcraft and a 250$ Quake Tournament and let the Top 3 players of both Games battle it out for another 500$ in a match of Demigod. Or maybe even having a poll where the 2 most voted for games get these tournaments. This way you reach existing audiences and have a innovative event which might get a lot of attention. Strelok/Mondragon/Nony vs K1llsen/Cypher/Winz would be an epic match both the quake and the starcraft community would watch (need observer mode for the caster first though ). Maybe its a bad idea but I think some guerilla marketing in some form or another can be nice to catch attention. And Frogboy should totally mention that he played in PGL and also does it because he likes e-sports (even when we all know that it is about return of investment in the end ), I mean the CEO of a publisher being a former "progamer" is quite a nice story which gives a lot of street nerd credibility.

Thats my Ideas and Thoughts for now, feel free to rip it apart and add your own

+9 Karma | 37 Replies

Though I have not played the game before, I think I heard that's it's possible to record replays.

To start with, we can upload replays and comment on them, give help etc. to make it more competitive. Also makes people better at the game, and it all becomes a bit more "serious" and therefore make it more eSport-friendly.

Very interesting thoughts TBO I beleive we can have a great community no matter what the numbers end up!!!! The Tourney ideas are awesome. I like the idea of sponcering a tourney for another game only to have then a Demigod Bonus match

This post is win. A clever grassroots effort will be more effective and cost developers alot less.

Guerrilla marketing - Hire some street taggers to stencil Rook on the sidewalk in LA, New York, and Paris.

Also, people will play for shinies - doesn't just have to be money. Ingame titles, bling, pets, and skins are all valid prizes.

First of all I have to say I like competive gameplay and even would say demigod is curently lacking in that position.

But on the other hand I hate the whole e-sport scene. Its all about minmaxing statspadding and cheating and most e-sport players i know are not the nicest ppl, not to say elitist assholes

But you talked about getting people to play demigod for some money tournaments.

The first thing which needs to be done first is make demigod higly competetive.

Alone this task alone destroys demigods casual friendliness. And it brings demigod much more in the same niche like DotA which has a larger e-sport scene than the whole "Giga league" you mentioned.

And I have to admit your ideas are nice how you could catch some ppl but other companies have tried that too and it has no substantial effect. Best example S2 Games and Savage 2 where they tried exactly what you suggested.

And its quite logic why it doesnt works: No one from outside the scene will win any tournament because of the large lack of knowledge when you start. And most competetive players are quite fixed on their main game and just a little bit of money wont take them away from that.

I would rather see demigod a little more competive but mainly in the casual gaming sector.

We'll need:

- At least one major fansite mostly devoted to competitive Demigod with replay uploading and commentary as well as active forums (I'm thinking along the lines of AgeSanctuary if anybody is familiar with that)

- A good online matchmaking and ranking system

- Frequent online tournaments which are easy to enter and don't last a very long time

- Developers willing to release balance patches relatively often with big changes when necessary

- A set of well established "pro" players who are active in the community and upload their replays

- 2500+ players online at all times except for late at night

Btw, to the above poster, Demigod becoming a competitive game in no way limits casuals. There will always be a place for casuals to play this game, there's no doubt about it. Barring extreme changes, it's very easy to play right from the start, and it's the kind of game that casuals will probably enjoy playing for quite some time. Casuals will play lots of unrated games in their own hosted lobbies and there will be more than enough of them around to keep that "scene" going. The thing about casuals is, they don't really need a structured "scene" to keep playing. That's why they're casuals....they don't tend to join clans, worry about their stats, or watch replays. They'll be content just playing for fun.

The reason Dota is the way it is, with people in public games having a wide range of skills and many acting "elitist" is because the only reliable way to get a game for most people is to play in public games. This game will have an automated matchmaking system and actual recorded rankings and leaderboards, so the more "hardcore" players won't be mixed with the casuals as much.

I think the best thing the Demigod community can hope for is for this to develop into something akin to the AoE3 community. Not huge, but relatively large, with well-known pros and popular replay-oriented competitive-scene fansites.

I am no fan of e-sports. I always found the idea laughable that playing video games could be construed as a sport. When things get to that level, players take the game way to seriously and all interest in having any fun goes out the window. Not that I'm against competition, I enjoy that a lot, but e-sports turn games into serious business when they really aren't.

Having said that, I think this idea as a marketting stunt could really benefit DG by drawing more attention and interest in it. I'd even participate in a few tourneys. Just as long as e-sports doesn't become the focal point of interest for this game, thats when I lose interest. Overall I support the idea, I'd be curious to see what Brad thinks about it.

I agree with Kestrel that this post is all win. However, to ViViDGear:

Alone this task alone destroys demigods casual friendliness. And it brings demigod much more in the same niche like DotA which has a larger e-sport scene than the whole "Giga league" you mentioned.

Introducing competitiviness does NOT destroy its casual friendliness. Starcraft (most competitive RTS game) has a large casual fanbase and can be played casually with ease, despite it have tournies where people can win up 100k in cash. Look at any other RTS that has been made competitive and has had money tournies, they have huge casual fanbases - RA3, CnC3 (EA putting them through to WCG and holding money tournies).

I would rather see demigod a little more competive but mainly in the casual gaming sector.

This game was advertised to say it would be competitive. Its already very easy to play for the casuals and fun too, nothing else needs to be done to ehance the casual gaming sector. I mean, what can you do to ehance it? Nothing really...However the competitive scene needs lots of support to be successful (e.g. tournies, patches, balance etc.).

Though I have not played the game before, I think I heard that's it's possible to record replays.

Well gamereplays.org has experience with this. Replays can be posted there which are then reviewed by Replay Reviewers (staff) whom give tips, an analysis and rating for the game. You can check out some of the other sections and see how the replays are reviewed etc. The whole community there is very competitive based, and as soon as Demigod releases its replay system you can upload them there and they will get reviewed.

I think "e-sport" is a charged and misleading term.

What we should be focused on is just trying to make this game long lasting and rewarding, which for most people who play it more than a few hours a week will mean some kind of competitive scene - a venue for players to work at getting better and continuously challenge one another.

I'm familiar with gamereplays.org, they were the other popular site for AoE3. However, AgeSanctuary was more active and focused entirely on one game, which made it easier to navigate and just felt better. I also preferred the way AS set up its replay uploading / downloading etc with search functions and an actual database instead of replays just being uploaded in posts.

PossiblyImpossible:
Do you know if AgeSanctuary will be supporting Demigod?

well at least you don't have to do doping as you have to do in real sports on the top level

Also if you say you enjoy competition and tournaments that is e-sports already. It doesn't need to be "professional" (outside of korea you can't really use that word), in fact 99% of people see e-sport not as serious thing but as fun hobby. The biggest starcraft clan league (BWCL) doesn't even have prizes at all yet there are thousands of people playing it every weekend just for fun. About good gamers being dicks, you have many dicks at all skill levels you just notice it more with publicly known players.

@Dalzk, I think AgeSanctuary only does "Age of" games

It took many years of updates to Starcraft before it appealed to competitive players. It is very challenging to make a game that is fun for the general public but also usable as a competitive game.

Quoting DalzK,

reply 9

PossiblyImpossible:
Do you know if AgeSanctuary will be supporting Demigod?

You mean if there'll be a "DemigodSanctuary"? I'm almost certain the answer is no.

It's not well known but Stardock was contracted by Blizzard and GT Interactive some years ago to develop one of the Starcraft expansions. The point being, we are very familiar with the history of Starcraft.

It took many years of updates to Starcraft before it appealed to competitive players. It is very challenging to make a game that is fun for the general public but also usable as a competitive game

wow didn't even know about the retribution and insurrection expansion campaigns - nice stuff, guess they never appeared on the european market at all. Some years is also quite an understatement for something which lies 11 years in the past

I wouldn't say that it took many years of updates, the 1.04 patch from December 1998 already balanced the game very well. Of course the balance in the final balance patch from 2001 is a bit better. Since then all other balance is done from the community via the maps. Oddly enough most popular maps are rather unfair when it comes to some matchups though. All later patches didn't change anything at the balance at all (unless you consider fixing exploits balance changes^^).

PS: put Retribution on impulse

New maps on BW don't really affect the low leveler's like me anyways

I don't really like calling things an e-sport cause very few games have the ability to reach this level, especially with the focus on graphics > gameplay as today's standards in video games. All I want out of a game is one with high competitive depth and FUN. If I enjoy the game I will keep playing it, if it's a hard game to figure out I will keep playing it for a long time.

Well gamereplays.org has experience with this. Replays can be posted there which are then reviewed by Replay Reviewers (staff) whom give tips, an analysis and rating for the game. You can check out some of the other sections and see how the replays are reviewed etc. The whole community there is very competitive based, and as soon as Demigod releases its replay system you can upload them there and they will get reviewed.

I've played C&C3 and I play RA3 casually, and I know this site works wonders. They've set up a Demigod section already, so I guess we can use this as our main uploading site, but I'd still prefer we give tips on these forums, instead of *only* on GameReplays.

The reason behind this, is because I feel it's better for the Demigod community to stay on the official forums, rather than just spreading out to different uploading sites. Plus, I like the community here.

Also, on topic, I believe that the game gradually becomes an eSport as long as balance fixes get released regularly.

Quoting Hilving,

reply 15

If the community on the Demigod official forums is better than on unofficial fansites, I would be amazed. Official forums, in my experience, are very rarely better. They're best for getting direct responses from developers / developer affiliates.

My only problem with GR.org is that it's tougher to develop a strong and active community on there because Demigod will be just one small part of the entire website. It's usually preferable to have a site (and forum) dedicated specifically to the game.

Quoting TheBigOne,

reply 10

well at least you don't have to do doping as you have to do in real sports on the top level

Hey, it's entirely possible those crazy APM's are being fueled by rampant amphetamine abuse!

I used to paintball competitively. Every weekend I was out practicing with my team at SC Village, playing alongside some really well known guys (Team Dynasty being the big one). We got pretty good and started getting involved in tournaments. It went from a fun hobby to something completely different for me. It became a real commitment. It became more than just a game. At that level way to often I found people taking themselves and their teams way to seriously. Cheating was rampant, bad attitudes were everywhere. Playing to win meant a lot of your good buddies have to sit on the sidelines, it ended up pitting friend against friend. In the end, I got sick of the whole scene and bailed on it. I'd rather go out in the woods with my buds and play like we did back in the day.

I guess my point is that you can enjoy competition without taking it to that next level of organized play. It's a fine line, I'll admit, but it's something I know exists. After a certain point, many people do take it way to seriously and it becomes more than a hobby. I know this doesn't hold true for everyone either, but it does for many.

While it's true that at the highlest level of competition some people may take the game too seriously, a serious competitive scene is necessary for the continued interest of the playerbase in the game. Sure, casuals who don't really care about watching replays or posting on forums and just play random matches or with friends won't really mind one way or another, but for the community to stay strong and cohesive and active, a competitive scene will be required. It's not so much that all, or even most of the members of the community will be involved or will try to be involved in the higher levels of competition, but just the sense that there is more to the game than casual gameplay.

Upper levels of competition provide entertaining replays, and the hope of rising through the ranks to become a well-known player. They also give people more to talk about - discussion of balance and strategy is always much more prevalent and heated when the game is being taken to higher levels of competition. The more casual the community is, the less they care about balance issues and strategy (because they aren't as much of a factor) and so the less they discuss about the game itself.

Quoting Istari,

reply 11

It took many years of updates to Starcraft before it appealed to competitive players.

I agree. There is no point claiming Demigod to be an e-sport before it's even release and before the fact that the game could lose it's appeal way before there is any kind of balance required for truly competitive play.

I think everyone is jumping the gun a bit here. If you like the game so much then just wait until it's released and then enjoy it as much as you can for as long as you can instead of trying to predict a future for the game that is currently very uncertain.

Quoting Evanescent,

reply 19

I know what you mean, but I also believe that the community needs to have a direction and purpose in mind for the game in order for it to reach that point, or in other words, the game won't just develop a competitive "endgame" of its own accord, the community has to have a mindset towards making it that way and pushing the developers to steer it in that direction.

While the community is no doubt important, let's not kid ourselves - ultimately the game itself needs to play like an e-sports game to be a successful e-sports games. While worms might have ended up in the tourney, it's still not considerred an e-sports game and is more of an aberration than a demonstration that any game can be an e-sports game.

Quoting JinxOfSin,

reply 21

I agree. My main point, though, is that the game won't ever get changes for it to be more competitive and more like an "e-sport" unless the community makes it clear that a competitive "endgame" is a priority. So far, throughout Beta, the community overall has seemed mostly content with the game and dissenting opinions, especially regarding significant changes to give the game more competitive depth, have been harshly criticized or shot down through irrational association with DotA.

The community needs to change for the game to change. If there's no push for the game to be shaped into an "e-sport," then it never will be. Although the developers originally stated their intentions for the game to be a competitive staple, those intentions clearly changed over the course of the game's development. That, I think, can likely be explained - at least in part - by the community reaction throughout Alpha and Beta.

What does "play like an e-sports game mean"? See I come from the Starcraft Community and probably 90% of them think that Starcraft is the only RTS suited for e-sport and that all other RTS are fail and need no skill to play, especially Warcraft III. If you ask a Warcraft III gamer he will say that Dota doesn't have any depth at all and is for noobs who are to bad for Warcraft III. Now Dota players come and tell me that Demigod had not enough depth (yet most of those guys suck horribly on Demigod - both when it comes to reaction and to understanding the game mechanics of Demigod). If I was to pick 5 preconditions you need for a e-sport title it is:

1) A as big as possible player base (which also means as low as possible system specs)

2) It must be interesting to watch and the audience must be able to understand what is going on and who is in advantage

3) usual Game Length must be between 15 and 30 minutes and not exceed 1 hour ever.

4) preferably rated "Teen", makes things a lot easier at least, especially in Europe.

5) "Difficult" enough to distinguish good from very good players and have a not too big influence of luck.

Some basic guidelines for an "e-sport" or competitive game:

1) easy to learn, extremely difficult to ever completely master

2) simple in concept, complex in details

3) fun no matter how skilled you are

4) easy to tell what's going on when watching

5) lots of structure / support for competition (ranking, statistics tracking, tournaments, matchmaking service)

6) well balanced

7) ideally the most competitive game is one where the better player always wins, so luck is not a significant factor

8) to be the best at the game means minimizing weaknesses and maximizing strengths; getting the most out of the units / resources you have available to you

9) emphasis on practiced skill and in-the-moment decision making rather than on knowledge and memorized strategies

(not in any particular order of importance)

"The Counterstrike of RTS"

Counter Strike doesn't waste time with logo videos when the game starts up. You can, infact, just launch DIRECTLY into a game from steam client in 4-5 seconds.

Demigod needs to cut out those logo videos so accessing a game, especially from Impulse's instant action is quick with as few interruptions as possible. Preferably none.

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a few thoughts about how to make Demigod a successful e-sport game