[Suggestion] Major gameplay concerns

A few things to consider for the release of demigod

By DarkZakurazz on January 23, 2009 11:20:57 PM from

This post will just go over a few things or ideas that NEED to be implimented in one way or another. I'll try and list why I think these additions are neccessary for hardcore and casual gamers because both groups are important to appeal to.

Demigod Skills

-There needs to be more, period. It doesn't matter if you had a ton of synergy skills or have choice between getting different skills for each slot or any other way to get each demigod more skills. Theres a lot of great suggestions on the forums. I think for hardcore and casual being able to try out new combinations of spells and try out wierd ways to put skills together adds replayability for both groups. Hardcore players will try to build builds to counter enemies and outplay them and maximize their strengths. Casual gamers like to just hop in a game and always have a new playing experience with each demigod. Currently there are far too few "builds" and even after a few games with each demigod you feel like you're playing a similiar experience and the choices in skills aren't changing your playstyle enough. (there are exceptions but for the most part thats how I feel)

Game Balance

-This game should be balanced around teamplay, not persistant items or any nonsense like that. I'm not sure how other people feel or if im alone, but when I start a game of this nature, I want the fields to be level, I don't want some other player to start of with ANY sort of advantage regardless of how much he plays or anything like that. I also don't want to have to do a 3v2 or 3v1 if thats the case, because what if i happen to play a lot for a bit and get to this 3v1 level, except I prefer to play on as a team or play team support, but oh wait I have no team because I've played too much this month.

Items

-They're plain, boring, and expensive. The expensive bit can be changed when the game goes into balancing so its not a big deal. Items are boring, theres a lot of choice but they dont seem to be balanced around or have paticularly special effects. Take dota for example, every item recipe has a specific build and style that they add to a hero, its not just "armor" theres "armor that gives you an ice nova" or "armor that helps you reflect incoming damage" and different hard choices to make when it comes to what items for what heroes and what builds. Making types of items recognizable would be nice for demigod so when you're playing you might be like "oh that rook is going mega tank with armor of the gods, so I might want to watch out when he activates it or i might be in trouble". Of course thats good for the hardcore players, but casual players will also enjoy the "oh wow that item sounds really cool" and pick it regardless of its the best for their build.

Generals

-Are generals assasins or are they suppose to be something completely different. Right now they are assasins with a summon. Idols are useless and not a fun mechanic. There are many suggestions on the forums how to fix this. Something should be done regardless to make having an army of guys fun to play with and not a burdan or completely useless (like it is now).

Tournaments

-Tournaments should take the warcraft 3 tournament system as an example, I feel that is the ideal style that would work for this game, just expanded a bit. In warcraft 3 every few days or so they have a tournament available and during a certain time window you can play games based on what type of tournament it is. You can play up to ~8 games and then at the end of the timeframe the players with the top amount of wins get to play in a branching tournament to see who wins the tournament. In demigod I think it'd be great to use a similar system, except make the tournaments last maybe a week and have a few going at a time. Maybe one week theres a pub 3v3 going on and a 3v3 premade going on so everytype of player can go on and play, so the hardcore players can get together with their friends and play other players interested in competeing and casual players can play a few matchs in the tournament for fun to see how they do and don't need a host of friends with vent and can just hop on. Keep a maximum amount of games and a good matchmaking system to match similiar win/loss ratios. These tournaments can have different conditions and type of games to keep things interesting and don't favor people who have more time than other people to play all of their games.

Well thats all I can think of for now, if anyone manages to read any of the sections please leave a comment, I'm sure all of us are interested in seeing this game be the funnest it can be and last a long time, because despite the things I've said, I have fun and I want the fun to last!

0 Karma | 19 Replies

I'm inclined to agree about the skills, however, I think the more important thing to note about skills currently is that they don't really...well...take that much skill to use.

Most of them are very straightforward. Target enemy, do damage. Summon minions. Hurt enemy tower. Take passive ability. We need more skills that require more precision, skills that you will be able to use more effectively with practice.

Each Demigod could have twice as many skills but if they were all easy to use, one-size-fits-all kind of skills (not that much planning required) then it wouldn't make the game any better.

Very good point, I think there needs to be some sort of balance of skill and simplicity. Ideally each skill will be well thought through so that a skilled player may combine one skill with another to chain a few effects together, but using a skill on its own will be effect so that you don't have to be hardcore to still do well.

I do think skills that you have to aim are a lot more fun though in any situation, ie rooks boulder rolling, that in itself is a fun move to use and a basic level player may just use that to stun an enemy or do some aoe damage, but a good combo with the skill is to buy the blink stone and when you hit an enemy teleport and hammer smash to really maximize your enemy. Sadly thats probably the most advanced use of skills at the moment in the game and it'd be great if I had other skills to chain together to really distinquish myself from a person who has just started playing.

I think the nature of having more skills increases the amount of combinations and skill involved in using them because its unlikely the devs will make the exact same spells so different combinations will be tried and created simply if there are more skills.

Yes, boulder roll is probably the funnest skill atm.

I agree with all of your points, and I'd like to briefly articulate my two major concerns:

1. Since Demigod is not going to have a huge number of heroes, they need to be diverse. Ex, Sedna needs to be able to take the roll of a healer or support or high damage output or a variety of things based on what the team needs. However, as you indicated, diversity is not everything - a character is only going to be fun for a long period of time if they take a while to master. More "skillful" skills please!

2. Even with very diverse heroes, there is only so much you can pack into several character. I know Stardock/GPG have plans for adding more post-release, but really, in a game that supports 5v5 battles, 8 heroes is NOT how many you put into the game. I know there is cost issuses and such, but this game is only going to stand the test of time with continual addition of content (TF2 is a great example, they're still getting new content and much more is planned). Ideally, I would like to see 20 demigods within a year or two of release.

I have to agree with everything said so far in this thread, pretty much. Most demigods will have 4 castable skills at most, while in DotA most heroes have at least 2, usually 3 and sometimes all 4 skills are casts, yet DotA has something like 90 heroes now. In order for Demigod to remain diverse there really need to be one or two more castable skills on most of the demigods. Another thing I've noticed is that currently, each skill point spent is hardly an upgrade, except for very few skills such as Hammer. This means having two or three levels on your opponent is not very important. I think every Demigod just needs most of their skills buffed. It's more fun if everyone feels overpowered in a way. Also, because you can only get a new rank of different skills every 3 levels, you won't maximize your spells until quite late in the game. This makes it harder to specialize and reduces choices, because as it is you're practically forced to spend a point or two into skills that don't exactly fit your build when you'd rather get this skill or that, etc. The lack of any real "ultimate" abilities is also kind of boring.

Rant end.

i dont think its fair to always use DOTA as a example all the time. People complain about the game not being RTS at all, but what is DOTA?!?!

maybe its not supposed to be the full typical RTS?

its good for inspiration ideas, but trying to relive DOTA elements through another game like demigod?..... i dunno ... but this is the feeling i get from some people that post comparisons about the 2 games.

im not gonna argue some of the points up there (skills and balance), theyre essential.

This game's BIGGEST influence is DotA, and despite all the hate DotA gets, DotA has practically a perfect gameplay formula for its type. Because DotA is virtually the only other game with similar gameplay, it's the only thing we have to compare, and it'd be idiotic not to learn things from it.

Quoting MetDragon,

reply 6

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, to all you "DotA haters": This game's success will be measured by how effectively it synthesizes the DotA formula with some of its own new ideas and improvements. DotA is great because it successfully straddles the line between RTS and RPG. There's a bar set high there, and Demigod needs to work to reach it.

Trying to be un-DotA-like is probably not a good idea, especially if it's simply for the sake of being different.

im not against you guys, but its probably my fault for not being able to express my view properly.

DOTA's somethign to learn from but i dont want the exact same elements from that game in this one, otherwise id just keep playing DOTA.

anyway ... i dunno if i can say more on this topic

I do agree to some thing but you mostly look like you wana recreate Dota. If dota is so perfect to you, maybe you should go play back to this old pixelated game.

This is not dota And I dont want demigod to look too much like it.

I just love demigod how it is right now. And most of their choice is good.

I think you misunderstand some of my points, I only used some of dota's features as examples of things to improve in demigod. I love how demigod mixes things up, theres no pregame laning really, I love the strategy and fighting over each flag because they're key to winning. Dota creeps are strong at first and you have to remain cautious before you can even engage them, demigod you are strong enough at level 1 to just go in and start the action.

Theres lots of elements of demigod which are completely independant of dota and its great! I used a few examples of features in dota, such as replayability that demigod needs, I could have easily referenced another game that has lasted the test of time, but the most relevant comparrisons are from dota, because they are the closest related in genre (due to the nature of both games being unique in genre). Dota and demigod already play so differently that I wouldn't say that "oh demigod is just dota2", demigod is its own game and I will end up still playing both after demigod is released.

Btw thanks for all the comments guys, hopefully the devs notice posts and discussions like this (the ones with good ideas to improve the game) and do something about it

I do not want this to be a Diablo-fest, where items are more critical to a Demigod than the Demigod`s own skills. In Titan Quest, items augmented skills, which was the proper way to go. The abilities inherent to the Demigod itself is what makes the Demigod unique & interesting - shift the focus over to items and you wind up firmly in DiabloLand. The Demigods will lose their character to a substantial degree. The focus should always (if at all) be on augmenting inherent traits of said Demigods, lest your choice of Demigod become inconsequential.

Game balance should not be focussed around teamplay too much. I have fun in multi and skirmish of course, but I am also looking forward to the singleplayer campaign. If the balance is centered around teams rather than making allowance for victory by a sole Demigod, then what happens to singleplayer? I like things as they are, but for some tweaking and polish here & there.

Minions of Generals are far from useless, ineffective, or dull. Would I like to see bugs in their behaviours corrected? Of course. Would I like to see unique Minions to each General? Yes. Minions have made a world of difference in every game of Beta 2C (? the newest...) I`ve played.

MetDragon - just because you get a skill point doesn`t mean you have to apply it right away. You can hold onto it until you unlock more of the skill tree with further levelling.

Quoting WarlokLord,

reply 11

if balanced is done correctly it should work for both teamplay and single play.

Anyone who thinks item recipes (for instance) and last hits are good game mechanics are going to have a very limited influence on our thinking of what the game should be like.

actually there is some last hit game mechanics in demigod already for situations where they are really good suited, but most people fail to see them

One of oaks skills is triggered only if he kills a unit (the one which heals you and allies a bit not sure about its name)

You get the money/xp for last hits even when you are out of the normal bounty/xp range (can happen with damage over time skills, or mines and snipe)

I think there was a few more subtle ones

Item Recipes are really not cool, they decrease the amount of viable choices but I still think have some items which can be upgraded might be cool (for example you could have 3 levels for the wand of speed which each increase the amount of speed bonus a bit, or 3 levels for warpstone which decreases the cooldown a bit). They would need to give less bang for the buck on level 2 than level 1 and less on level 3 than on level 2 so they aren't useful always.

@frogboy

I don't think last hitting and item recipes are good mechanics, they fit into dota because of the way the game had to be designed, but definiately don't have their place in demigod. My point about the items is that they should be more unique, theres the starting helm that gives 750 mana and 6 regen then theres a 4500g item that gives 1000 mana and like 15 regen, its a small upgrade and they're seperate items, my suggestion is to make a little more flavor to the items, maybe give that more expensive helm some sort of passive effect that would make you want to choose that over another similiar item. If you don't like the suggestions thats fine, its my opinion, I would like to hear if you think any of the points are valid though. Thanks for the reply though, I appreciate having devs comment on posts

I agree, last hitting and item recipes are concepts that worked in DotA but something that Demigod can improve upon a lot. I saw a suggestion a while ago (with mock-up screenshots) of upgradeable items: you would start with one item and would be able to upgrade it through a few upgrade trees. This creates the same kind of fun of item recipes from DotA (you don't just throw money at a new item, but actually start with a weak one and work your way up to a more powerful one) without the same difficulty of requiring massive amount of memorization, while also creating a new, unique game mechanic to differentiate itself from DotA, and creating a smoother progression of item quality. For example, you could start with boots that increase speed. They can be upgraded to boots that also increase health and armor, or ones that further increase speed, etc. Each starting item could have a few upgrade paths, and the tooltips for the starting items would give a basic explanation of the paths so you don't spend too long looking for the right item.

Oh yea, I saw that post as well and thought it was well done and simple, two things that are required for types of changes like this. Any types of suggestions that furthur the depth of the game in any of the categories should be considered in my opinion, the examples I give are just things I've thought about, but aren't neccessarly the right course of action to take. That said, the IDEAS that I have mentioned I have thought about as things that need to be changed and any implimentation to help those elements gain some depth and fun would be nice.

I think item branching sounds like an excellent idea because I feel the current items are a bit bland as well. When reading about this I was thinking why not have skill branching also? For example rook's hammer could branch after 2 or 3 points and have one branch add an aoe silence to the impact area and another branch could add a shockwave effect that knocks the reinforcements back. Both branches could still increase hammer damage while adding to their specific effect as well. I would imagine it would make the most sense to not allow points to be spent in both branches.

If many skills had branching options such as this it could greatly increase build variation as well as allow situational customization. In this example, one might choose the silencing hammer against a caster heavy team or the shockwave otherwise to help push faster and clear the area for ganks. The major benefit of this path would be adding some much needed skill depth while maintaining the current synergy and themes... and it would be easier to implement than adding new skills. Just a thought!

yes branching would be a good idea, not that hard to make since the basic moves and items are their, and it would be an interesting concept. Being able tobuy an item multiple times adding on to the effect would also be interesting.

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[Suggestion] Major gameplay concerns

A few things to consider for the release of demigod