Does Warscore Benefit Demigod?

By OrleanKnight on January 19, 2009 5:02:07 PM from

This prospective is written from 2v1 game scenario experiences.

The evolution of Demigod has undoubtedly come a long way since the introduction of Beta 1 back in September. Despite the progression over past five different playable builds, the very latest seems to be one of the weakest candidates. So much of the game has changed, and certainly each build becomes progressively less fun and entertaining. Now that may not surprise many, as this has been forewarned that these early stages of the beta will not be fun at all. But then, what made Beta 1 so fun to play?

The enjoyment factor carried all the way to Beta 1C, despite the persistent imbalances that the Unclean Beast provided. But when that creature wasn't on the field, there was something interesting happening, or at least starting to happen. Games were engaging and relaxing all at the same time, allowing for some real pleasing fun that didn't over work your brain. With the birth of Beta 2, these relaxing feelings started to go away, and how now vanished with Beta 2B. There is simply too much to handle at once. Before Beta 2, a 2 versus 1 player match was possible. Allowing the more skilled player to solo, while the slightly less skilled cooperate against him.

Now, skill no longer plays much of a role in a 2 v 1 match, and just merely having the extra body of a partner will always mean a dreadful end to the solo participant. Warcscore, overly abundant flags, and ungodly expensive items make coming back impossible for the struggling solo player. Once the other team is able to purchase priests, the game will quickly come to an end. Even in alternative game modes other than Conquest, the Citadel and Warscore provide a certain foothold that simply can not be handled by one physical body. Skilled players will lock down their flags, and teleport to any location where the 1 player is.

On the Cataract map, there is a 20% Experience Bonus flag. One of the interested edges in past Beta1 2v1 games, was that a solo player could benefit from not having to worry about flags to instead harvest the extra kills to gain in level far faster than his enemies - allowing him/her to hold their own. But in this build, once the other team captures and successfully holds the middle flag, the 'edge' is off as the experience bonus will allow the enemy team to stay right on par with the solo Demigod in level and strength. Not to mention all of the other stat bonuses which are then dumped on top of that for out-flagging the solo player.

The invention of the Warscore is nifty indeed, but really for much larger games. It'd be nice to bring back a lot of the older game options, such as timed upgrades to citadel and mostly needless flags. Perhaps more options to turn these features on and off? Because frankly, this game is not at all very relaxing anymore. It's quite stressful having to progressively worry about more and more and more things to do, even more so when you are playing alone. Oddly, I had a lot more fun when my main concern was just killing things and getting better gear.

Any other prospectives?

+70 Karma | 27 Replies

I agree with much of what you have written here but I want to respond to some of your points.

Regarding warscore. The warscore was introduced because before, your war rank simply went up due to a timer which required no skill at all.

But because it's a new concept, it isn't very well balanced.

Here is how it is supposed to work (but hasn't been updated yet to support this)

The game mode you play as will determine how many flags are in the game. Ideally, we would like to let players decide how many flags are in a given game. So playing on "Slaughter" would default the map to having only 1 flag versus playing dominate would have 5 flags on the same map as the default with (again, ideally) the user able to then choose the # of flags.
Upgrading the citadel is supposed to be a combination of money and war score. One of the ideas we've played around with is that the money generated from mines (your "free" income) is shared amongst the team. So while a bigger team woudl have some natural advantages over a small team in terms of controlling flags, they would tend to have less gold and require more effective teamwork (someone having to sacrifice items to pay for upgrades).

We do feel very strongly that in Demigod, a good player should be able to take on and defeat 3 or 4 weak players. But at the same time, we want to have mechanics such that a good team could defeat a weak team QUICKLY. A 15 minute game is a good result. An hour long game is a bad result unless both sides are very equally matched.

agree with orlean that its anoying to try to remeber so many things to take care of. yet I think forgboy your ideas could fix this so I dodn't think we should make a bid fuss about it until after u try to fix it. I often enjoy just wrecking havoc upon my enemy and would enjoy the ability to select how many flags. Allso, i think the people playing the game should be able to view the settings and what diff the comps if any are on.

Well the Adjustmen of flags is well and good from game to game, but how exactly does this translate into the Tournament modes?

I don't think the new beta is boring at all. In fact i think the betas have progressively gotten better unsurprisingly. The whole point of the game is to be the "Counterstrike of Rts" so it is going to be fast paced and not relaxing. That is just the nature of the game, to say that is was better when the game was simpler doesn't seem to make sense to me. Maybe not all the ideas are balanced so far but from a players perspective it is exciting to see that new features and ideas are beign added and the pace of game is SO much better. I can now play demigod and not fall asleep mid game because it takes an hour to kill their first towers and the game only really begins with catapultasaurii. I mean it is easy to say that I like the game the way it is now and I think it should keep going in this direction but that is just the way I feel and the vibe I have gotten from a bunch of friends who play the game. There are tweaks that need to be made for sure with the items as only the way they scale is WAY off so that extremely expensive items give you almost no stats for their price but overall I like the direction the game has gone in. I am just glad demigod is more intense because it has made it far less boring to play, it is becoming fun . ALso yeah flags need better balancing for sure as orlean talks about with experience flags.

I have to say that I feel completely oppositely of you, OrleanKnight. I have had more fun with every single update; the latest one has been especially enjoyable. It is really great to see the game progessing, as the Demigods' skills get more-developed and the game itself is updated. I actually don't think there is too much to handle at once; in the case of Generals I would actually like it if there was more to handle. I guess this could be a result of all the RTS games I've played. Anyway, I'm really excited to see what the next update and eventually the release version will have. Some adjustments in a few areas would really make this a great game.

2vs1 and other uneven matchups might be nice additions but the main focus should lie on even teams in my opinion and for uneven teams you could always have the good old handicap setting which makes it possible to play with uneven teams (be it numberwise or skillwise).

One of the ideas we've played around with is that the money generated from mines (your "free" income) is shared amongst the team. So while a bigger team woudl have some natural advantages over a small team in terms of controlling flags, they would tend to have less gold and require more effective teamwork (someone having to sacrifice items to pay for upgrades).

yah having the gold shared instead of giving each player the same regardless of the teamsize would be a good thing. It could make a 5vs5 on a 2vs2 map (an extreme example) very slow though as there are only a few gold mines so people will get only very few money. Right now each gold mine gives 2 gold per tick to everyone I think, you could also stick to that and give the smaller team an bonus so the sum is even: in a 5vs2 game all 5 players of the big team would still get 2 per gold mine but the other would get 5 per goldmine, if it was 4vs2 the players of the big team would get 2 per player and the 2 others would get 4. I think This approach scales better for different teamsizes than a simple distribution (it surely has downsides as well.)

Personally I would love the gold-sharing...It would make player-killing ALOT more important in larger matches as the gold-mines would give significantly less per player ... We might actually have to coordinate and team-kill, OMG!

-Drexion

I like the complicatedness but sometimes some people just want to be able to relax and just feel like their destroying not constantly checking up on flags.

Then we should have flags or options in the game...Maybe create a "easy mode" so people who want a relaxing game can get a totally different experience.

-Drexion

-include easy mode
-include advanced options for easy mode
-easy mode isn't tornament viable

personally i think the game has been improving, i was dissapointed once with the first introduction of generals but now, especially with the introduction of sedna, i can say im not dissapointed with this beta at all.

A question.

Could you include an option that allows you turn Warscore on (default setting, as it is in 2b) or off (time based, as it was in 2 and previously)?

That would take part of this problem out. The other part is all about balance. As it's a beta and I've not played enough games online to see how well warscore works, I'll reserve judgement until I have played it more. I do like the idea of Warscore (it rewards the more skilled player that can keep flags) but yes, it's all going to be about the balance.

I like the idea of different game modes having different numbers of flags. Kudos on that.

I am all for more options but I just don't understand why people want to dumb down the game more. I don't know maybe that isn't how I play games but if you want to relax with a game play audiosurf. If you want to play a up tempo, competitive and complex game then play demigod. I don't know I guess even dota has an easy mode but I just would hate to see demigod turn into a game where the convention is just the easiest way to play.

I completely agree with Gnats3 here, and SlipperySnake. The first beta which I can actually play constantly for 3 days in a row was 2B. Ill be honest, between Beta 1-2A I was pretty worried about Demigod's so called "competitive" future, but after playing 2B and 2C update I think you guys have made massive improvements and are heading the right way.

I also cant see how there is too much too handle at once. For me there isnt enough too handle yet and like Gnats3 said, I think generals should have more to handle as in a RTS. The more there is too handle = the higher the skill roof. The higher the skill-roof of a game the more competitive it will be, and imo, the more fun. And from what ive heard from the developers, this game is aiming to be a competitive online one, with money tournaments and such, and so I think they are heading in the right direction.

Things such as 15-20 minute games actually existing, "faster" and more intense gameplay, having to do more things at once and the fact that more things are skill related and NOT time based (e.g buying upgrades from the citadel, more flags = higher war rank) is what is going to make the game a successful competitive one. (Oh and money tournies wouldnt hurt)

I also dont like the idea of all these extra options being added to help dumb down the game and make it more relaxing. There needs to be one certain default mode that is the norm for everyone to play, else the community will be split further into the "Conquest intense fast games" and the more "relaxing and simple games", and this can really hurt a game online - especially if the community turns out to be not so large.

I don't know maybe that isn't how I play games but if you want to relax with a game play audiosurf. If you want to play a up tempo, competitive and complex game then play demigod.

Ya that basically it sums it up for me

Quoting SlipperySnake,

reply 14

I don't know maybe that isn't how I play games but if you want to relax with a game play audiosurf. If you want to play a up tempo, competitive and complex game then play demigod.

Words cannot describe the amount of nerdrage that engulfed me upon reading this comment. Apologies if anyone finds the below hostile, or whatever (although there is no swearing), but some things I feel strongly about. The above quote was tantamount in my imagination to people screaming "LOLNOOBS, GTFO MY GAME" only not quite as funny.

We've gone off on a serious tangent here Orlean, for which I apologise, I'm about to add to it.

To put my below thoughts into context, this is the perspective of a "Hardcore Casual" or a "Casual Hardcore" gamer. I recognise and enjoy learning advanced techniques and skilled, competitive play. I often integrate some of them into my game strategy. I don't generally tend to dedicate enough time to be as good as the true hardcore players because I like playing lots of games and I never put enough time into a single game to be awesome at it. With all that said, into my thoughts.

You seem to be working under the misconception that adding user configurable options to "Dumb down the game" will hurt the competitive community by causing a split in which settings the game is played on. In my experience from other games this just isn't the case, because anyone that wants to play competitively in the first place will immediately play at the most hardcore settings available. The people that want to play the game casually will usually never touch the most hardcore settings because they have no wish to play the game competitvely; user configurable options do not dumb the game down as much as they modify it to tailor to how the user wants to play, and removing the options will not magically turn the players that want to play on the more casual settings into competitive players. The competitive and casual communities are two wholely seperate communities that never touch each other, but can both be catered to by adding simple option choices. That's not to say that said casual players will never want to join the competitive side, but a high skill barrier to entry will stop any of that. They will simply go elswhere, to another game. That's a waste right there.

Adding user configurable options doesn't hurt the competitive fanbase in the slightest and it certainly helps the more casual fanbase that want either the more relaxing experience, or the group of friends that want to mess around in a game with each other. To simply say to those people "Go and play something else, you're not HARDCORE enough to play this" when it costs the competitive community nothing to have the options present is stupid.

Demigod can, (and curently) does cater to both sides of the fence, and should continue to do so.

Before Beta 2, a 2 versus 1 player match was possible. Allowing the more skilled player to solo, while the slightly less skilled cooperate against him.

FWIW 1 v 2 might not work in beta 2 Conquest but 2 v 3 works fine. I haven't played it yet but I'm pretty sure 2 v 4 would work too.

Alright well there is obviously a gross misunderstanding of what I meant when I said what I did. There are two different things being argued here, the pace of the game and the skill level. I think everyone should be able to play of course but what I am saying is that adding in options that won't do much but take depth out of the game seem pointless to me. I understand if you want to play a slower paced game of demigod then play with high health on towers or other settings already there. The point is that demigod is supposed to be an up tempo game and changing this one option isn't going to solve all those problems if you have a problems with the way it is turning out then this probably isn't the right game for you. The point for it is to be up tempo that doesn't mean that only competitive players can play it but it means that if you like relaxing games audiosurf (which I love) might be the game for you.

if someone things Demigod is too fast or stressful he can always host a game with adjustable game speed and set gamespeed to -1

@ Mooglepies:

Settings that make that much of change split a community like a ****. I know that from experience. And it especially hurts when the community is small and not supersized.

Settings such as the Game Mode, conditions to win, Starting money are fine. I just think that what is being suggested here (which is dumbing down the game and making it slower/easier/more relaxing to play) is more of a mod than a game setting and wouldn't do the game good. Especially considering, this game is aimed at the competitive community. That is why slipperysnake is saying if you want a nice, easy, relaxing game Demigod isnt meant to be that.

Casual Gamers should not be rudely pushed aside as is being suggested by some people. I don't quite recall reading where this game was aimed at the competitive community, if your assumptions are related to its similiar play elements to DotA - then that is an ill informed connection. I've never really wanted to play this game competitively, but I've been keeping an eye on it since July and have been playing a role in this Beta Test for a great deal of time. I play games to relax and enjoy myself, this is one of the games I'd very much like to continue playing. But if too much is going on at one time, it'll become much more frustrating and my interest will fall away much like many other casual players.

I know this game can be more open and flexible to several gameplay interests. Do not fool yourselves into believing this game has always been made for those who pride themselves in clicking mouse buttons at high rights, scripting build orders, heavy into micromanagement, and various other things. I wanted to be a part of Demigod because to be frank, it's been advertised more to take away those hassels, rather than to pile them on. Being part of a huge RTS and having few resposibilities ingame is why I wanted to part of Demigod, its Beta, and its community. I got that feeling I wanted from the game during Beta 1, now that feeling is gone with Flag Bonuses, Warscore, and Citadel Upgrades. That's all I wanted to point out and draw questions toward.

I guess I just don't understand that. I am by no means someone who only play a game to win and wants to be super competitive so don't think that is the reason why we don't want to revert to the more primitive game. It is simply because if you can just sit there and do everything after playing the game only a few times then there is something wrong. I am sorry but being a casual gamer has NOTHING to do with the simplicity of the game. You can play a game perfectly fine when a ton of things are going on but just getting frustrated because you don't win makes it sound like you want the game to be easier to be good at in which case doesn't make any sense to me. You don't have to be the best in order to have fun. At least for me as a casual gamer I always like the oppurtunity to know I can get better. I guess I am completely of the opposite opinion of you as I still think demigod is too simplistic and the the skill trees need to be more complex. I respect your position but I just don't think you are with a majority of people when you say you are already overwhelmed by the gameplay.

Slippery, You're on a bit of a tangent. I said that additional elements to worry about can cause frustration, not losing. In addition, I never suggested that this games need to more simplistic.

Switching the war score back to the way it was isn't more simplistic? I don't understand what is frustrating about having a lot to do other than losing so I guess I just assumed. I mean if you can't do it all then you just don't, focus on what you can do. Of course you may not win but that shouldn't matter with what you are saying. I guess I just don't see how having more options is frustrating other than just losing because you can't control them all.

I also never suggested switching things back to the way things were. My main post was an observation, the Thread is a question. Those taking part in the thread provide their own views.

Sorry to ruin your arguement, but Frogboy has stated on several occasions he wants this game to be competitive and it is amied at the competitive community. Its fact..Ill try and find the exact loaction where he said it but not sure if I can still find it.

Slippery, You're on a bit of a tangent. I said that additional elements to worry about can cause frustration, not losing. In addition, I never suggested that this games need to more simplistic.

If you want to play as casually go ahead. You can do so with all these extra elements, but you can just ignore them. For example, Starcraft - the most competitive RTS known to man. LOTS of people play it casually despite there being so much complexity and depth...and there are VERY limited settings to the game. So your wondering how to people play the game casually if its so complex? They ignore the additional elements. They dont try and have high aps or scripted build orders. If you want to play Demigod casually go ahead, I respect that. In fact I will play it casually at times too. But you dont need settings to take away elements to make it casually, you just have to play it casually.

Of course, though, if you do ignore the additional elements and play agaisnt someone who does use them and does have high fps etc. then you will lose. But if your not competitive and casual, then thats no problem.

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Does Warscore Benefit Demigod?