The Forums Are Now Closed!

The content will remain as a historical reference, thank you.

[Balance] Queen of Thorns is obnoxious

A Guide to Winning with QoT and how it's broken.

By on January 19, 2009 6:50:37 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Alright, I've played a few games as the Queen and all I have to say is that she is super ridiculous. People are complaining about Sedna being OP, but I think the Queen has her beaten. My main reason for saying this is her ability to push into enemy territory and capture their portals early. My friend and I won a 2v2 in almost exactly ten minutes by aggressively pushing into their lanes. I'll explain how, and let everyone decide what the best thing to do is. (Note: Regelus can stop it if he's not dumb, but no one else can do much about it... well... maybe Torchie could. )

Step 1: Take Bramble and hide in your flower.

Step 2: Buy 3 mana potions, 2 TP Scrolls, 1 Rejuv Potion

Step 3: Blitz the middle flag and cap it. This will give you 66% of a level.

Step 4: Blitz the left side and try to cap the flag there, too. (The one that lets you capture a gold mine when you push forward to further ruin your opposition) This will raise you to level 2, at which point you take compost.

Step 5: Hang out on the flag and try to stop the opposing team from capping it. Try to avoid casting any spells. At levels 3 and 4 take Uproot.

Step 6: Cast uproot whenever you can. If you aren't being harassed then you can attack the towers from outside of their range and speed things up because of Compost.

Step 7: By this point you should be pushing into/have capped the enemy portal flags. This usually happens at around 4 minutes to 8 minutes, depending on what's up in your lane (8 minutes means you're solo against two DGs).

Step 8: The final step. You have two TP scrolls. TP back to base once you run out of mana pots and start upgrading units. Spawn rate, damage, armor, and the units themselves. Buy whatever mana regen you can and at least one more TP scroll and TP somewhere. The somewhere depends on what's going on. You can move to the other lane and knock out all of the towers for your team mates if you want, so that it's easy to get into their portal flags for everyone, or you can TP back to the side you pushed and start taking out the towers in their base (Less Towers of Light makes the others easier to kill, ETC, ETC). You can also knock out the towers in mid and try to cap their unit buffing flag to end the game faster. With catapaults you pretty much rape their base.

That's my guide to playing QoT, and also my thoughts on what happens when people are dumb. It can be countered, but only easily by Regelus. It helps a lot that I can attack and move at the same time... but not being able to target really does blow. :/ Only really makes it useful for running away (which you probably need to do at steps 4 and 5, kite them into the tower, if they follow they die. If they don't follow, chase them back and don't let them cap the flag if you can help it).

To Counter: Regelus can throw mines in the path leading to the portal flags. This blows you up... but Bramble can make that less effective than it should be. You can still run up and Uproot the tower, but you'll lose a lot of life and/or mana to Regelus. That being said, Compost QoT does a lot of damage to Regelus, and you can just sit there attacking him and Brambling yourself instead of the tower... he'll have to leave eventually. That's the point of mass mana pots. You could also get a lot of Rejuv pots if you think they're going to damage you a lot... I kind of got off of the counter topic. 

Other Counter: Besides just playing Regelus putting two heros in a lane really slows this strategy down. It's hard to push a tower solo against two even with her imbaness. Problems arise, however, when everyone on a team picks QoT... :/

Other Counter: You can also camp the portal flags. Hit them with the anti-cappers. Stuff like that. It slows the strat down, but it costs money from you, which you aren't spending on pots/upgrading/items, so at your own peril.

Other Counter: Upgrading your buildings. I normally don't bother doing things like that, but if I was against a QoT or two I probably would (if they were pushing like I do). It'll slow you down at least.. the problem is that this happens very quickly. Usually you won't have > rank 1 of Tower Regen before I've blown up one side, but if you get it fast enough it can make QoT have to use more mana potions per tower, which will stall her out pretty quickly.

Anyways... I love Queen of Thorns, to be honest I hope they don't nerf her, I just hope they give the other heros a way to stop her that doesn't totally gimp them. I should also note that your hero killing power after about level 7/8 starts to fall very quickly. You really can't gank anything, but you can kite them around flags a lot, so do that. As heros start to get stuns a well timed attack can take you down pretty quickly. I do like to get Boots of Speed and a Wand of Movement so that I can flee from incoming ganks, so those are things to consider.

Possible Solutions: Increase Tower HP. Granted, you could play with stronger tower settings (all of this is done at the default settings), but since that isn't the default, I'll assume default settings.

Possible Solutions: Reduce Uproot Damage. I don't know about this one. If you upgrade the towers it doesn't do much damage at all, but most people don't want to do that, and it happens so quickly that it may not be meaningful to try anyways.

Possible Solutions: Make QoT easier to kill: Right now Bramble gives a hell of a lot of absorb (1200 at level 4), is reasonably cheap, and can be cast pretty fequently. Maybe that will help.

[Edit]Possible Solutions: Remove Uproot. This would make me sad. That being said, replacing uproot with some kind of damaging root that targets heros instead of buildings might also be acceptable and not totally gimp her (Actually it would be a massive nerf, since she can't kill things by herself).[/Edit]

Possible Solutions: Something more impressive that someone else will post that isn't typing things at 5:00 AM.

Now stop whining about Sedna and complain about heros that are actually madness.

[Edit] I also think it should be pointed out that this strategy completely ignores the totems. If the game dragged on (somehow?) I guess you could get them, but they serve her no purpose. Shamblers are also wasted compared to this build, as they die easily and don't kill towers as quickly/effectively. With shamblers wasted and totems wasted, there's no reason to get any ability that improves your minions, which is about half of her tree. One Possible Solution would be to make her minions relevant instead of worthless.[/Edit]

 

0 Karma | 23 Replies
January 19, 2009 7:29:50 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I agree with QoT being very powerfull as a "army and structure killer", but on the other end she can't finish demigods if they know what they are doing.

Bramble is the only thing that keeps her alive, because any assassin can take her down pretty quick, i dont think she should be nerfed.

Althou would be nice if instead of uproot for buildings she would have a root skill to root enemy demigods to the ground, but that would probably make her an assassin.

Imo, QoT is the purest general so far, even if i spend most of the games without army. She is very army supportive.

January 19, 2009 7:34:07 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I agree with many of the points raised above.

QoT is designed as a siege-heavy Demigod; she attacks at range to destroy enemy defences and is extremely good at this. Combined with her ability to protect herself using bramble shield, she's extremely difficult to stop solo. As above though, she has no spike capability against other demigods; she finds it extremely difficult to kill other players as she has neither snares nor stuns. Her basic attack is quite powerful though (especially with compost) and she can attack on the move.

It could just be that this OPness is present on this particular map; Prison had the spawn portals right next to the citadel, and thus they were far harder to take early on; the strategy in the first post wouldn't work nearly as well there.

My personal playstyle for QoT is to take her big AoE damage skill and Bramble Shield, and combine it with the 1000 AoE heal favour item. it turns her into a creep killer with some strong support.

One idea I'd like to put forward is to make her take more damage when the flower is open (I know that being in flower incerases her armour slightly), and to deal less damage (but increase spash damage) from standard attacks while inside the flower. This should ideally drastically increase her vulnerability when she wants to do any meaningful AoE, line, or siege damage.

The point has again been raised though; minions still aren't necessary for Generals to prosper.

January 19, 2009 10:50:05 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Yah one point that's worth making, is that this dynamic could change considerably if there was a demigod in each lane.  Would the Queen be able to push the lane down that easily with a human player defending?

It's a little hard doing hero balance with the extreme difficulty of creating multiplayer games at the moment.

 

January 19, 2009 11:36:20 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Mines plus snipe!!!!

QoT was dying very fast in my games vs human QoT

January 19, 2009 1:33:40 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

In compairson to Queen of Thrones. Sedna feels more balances, while Queen of Thorns is an unstoppable tank, much like the Rook is. The Rook rigt now isn't any better, he can do much the same if you build him correctly.

A further note, I don't think any form of a Demigod Seige is really a good idea at all for this game (just like I feel this game doesn't need Stun either). Both Rook and Queen have these abilities that harm buildings, and that is what makes them a real pain in the butt. Surely they are made for larger games, but in a smaller game spectrum - having seige is just really unfair. When Torch Bearer had seige, he too was very troublesome and could do the exact same Portal Cap push that the Queen of Thorns does. Taking away his effective seige abilities hindered this from happening again.

January 19, 2009 2:31:01 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting OrleanKnight,
In compairson to Queen of Thrones. Sedna feels more balances, while Queen of Thorns is an unstoppable tank, much like the Rook is. The Rook rigt now isn't any better, he can do much the same if you build him correctly.

A further note, I don't think any form of a Demigod Seige is really a good idea at all for this game (just like I feel this game doesn't need Stun either). Both Rook and Queen have these abilities that harm buildings, and that is what makes them a real pain in the butt. Surely they are made for larger games, but in a smaller game spectrum - having seige is just really unfair. When Torch Bearer had seige, he too was very troublesome and could do the exact same Portal Cap push that the Queen of Thorns does. Taking away his effective seige abilities hindered this from happening again.

You are correct we do not need stun in this game and maybe we need stronger towers to offset the seige weapons of ROOK and QoT.

January 20, 2009 8:22:43 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I think Rooks stun is avoidable, not saying its balanced right, but one can expect it and avoid it. Like QoTs siege damage, i may not be balanced, but you can counter it if you play it right.

I agree that the game needs balance, but removing the uniqueness of the demigods just makes the game dull.

January 20, 2009 10:34:23 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I like the fact that QoT is great for seige damage. I don't really see a problem with her right now.

January 20, 2009 10:57:16 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Siege damage has its place. For one thing, it forces you to make a choice between the siege skill and another skill. It should also be noted that most people are saying that Rook's siege skill is largely useless for actual siege; more often than not he simply uses it on his own towers to heal himself. QoT's can only attack, making it a more viable option, but even then her basic attack outranges towers (I think). In many cases (early on in the game at least) you get higher DPS vs the towers from the basic attack than from Uproot.

How about making QoT stay in place for a few seconds (or for the whole duration) that she uses uproot? That opens her up to attack.

I'm still of the opinion that QoT may only seem overpowered because of this particular map and because we can't usually get enough players to form a cohesive team that can cover all the lanes. QoT goes down quite quickly when engaged in combat, especially if you're specced for siege early on.

January 20, 2009 11:23:41 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Yes she should have to stay attached like rook during the duration!!! Right now it is bramble and uproot and run away cooldown and repeat

January 20, 2009 2:21:03 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Actually, when I first used QoT's uproot, i thought it was channeled and I didn't move right away. Then the next time i used it i was attacked and realized that it didn't stop when i did run away.

I think having Uproot be a like the rook's structural transfer and stop once she moves would be really good. 

January 20, 2009 2:56:55 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Mooglepies,
Siege damage has its place. For one thing, it forces you to make a choice between the siege skill and another skill. It should also be noted that most people are saying that Rook's siege skill is largely useless for actual siege; more often than not he simply uses it on his own towers to heal himself. QoT's can only attack, making it a more viable option, but even then her basic attack outranges towers (I think). In many cases (early on in the game at least) you get higher DPS vs the towers from the basic attack than from Uproot.

How about making QoT stay in place for a few seconds (or for the whole duration) that she uses uproot? That opens her up to attack.

I'm still of the opinion that QoT may only seem overpowered because of this particular map and because we can't usually get enough players to form a cohesive team that can cover all the lanes. QoT goes down quite quickly when engaged in combat, especially if you're specced for siege early on.

Very good idea. I do not believe the Queen Of Throns is at all overpowered EXCEPT perhaps in her ability to move after casting the Uproot ability - good point Mooglepies. Immobilizing her until Uproot is finished doing itas thing would be an excellent adjustment to her.

As for the Queen overall, even with Bramble Shield she can fall to an enemy Assassin Demigod faster than a bag of rocks... which feels right. Again, Sedna is far easier to play than the Queen - Sedna is heal-tacular (!).

January 20, 2009 4:16:32 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting WarlokLord,

As for the Queen overall, even with Bramble Shield she can fall to an enemy Assassin Demigod faster than a bag of rocks... which feels right.

Technically, not putting air resistance into the equation, all things fall at the same rate.   

January 20, 2009 4:38:49 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Nothing better then seeing a DemiGod running for the crystal with low HP and looky there my snipe is ready Smitealicious!!!!!!!!

January 20, 2009 5:00:21 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Mooglepies,
Siege damage has its place. For one thing, it forces you to make a choice between the siege skill and another skill. It should also be noted that most people are saying that Rook's siege skill is largely useless for actual siege; more often than not he simply uses it on his own towers to heal himself. QoT's can only attack, making it a more viable option, but even then her basic attack outranges towers (I think). In many cases (early on in the game at least) you get higher DPS vs the towers from the basic attack than from Uproot.

How about making QoT stay in place for a few seconds (or for the whole duration) that she uses uproot? That opens her up to attack.

I'm still of the opinion that QoT may only seem overpowered because of this particular map and because we can't usually get enough players to form a cohesive team that can cover all the lanes. QoT goes down quite quickly when engaged in combat, especially if you're specced for siege early on.


This is an excellant idea.

January 21, 2009 4:27:38 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Queen = UP vs demigods (esp assassins)

January 21, 2009 10:29:04 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting DigitalVudu,
Queen = UP vs demigods (esp assassins)

Not sure if you're taking that as a negative, but that's kind of the point; she's a mass creep killer and siege specialist.

My personal opinion was always that Generals should not be able to actually kill demigods in one on one combat, but should require Minions. This says nothing about running away from demigods when you have no minions, or anything else.

I see no objection in myself to creating a general based around spike damage to demigods (using minions), or even Assassins that focus on supporting the creep and siege damage. It keeps things fresh.

January 21, 2009 10:41:02 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting ToxDrawace,



Quoting WarlokLord,
reply 12

As for the Queen overall, even with Bramble Shield she can fall to an enemy Assassin Demigod faster than a bag of rocks... which feels right.


Technically, not putting air resistance into the equation, all things fall at the same rate.   

Yeah yeah yeah... (grin). Sounds good though.

January 21, 2009 10:53:06 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Absolutely. The QoT is very disappointing. Not in terms of balance, but in terms of missing abilities ...

(i) No 'Gyrate' button
(ii) No 'Writhe Lasciviously' button
(iii) No 'Dance' button

.... just kidding ... mostly.

My main problem with QoT is the 'getting stuck' bug that sometimes happens when packing / unpacking.

She is pretty powerful after that. I tend to balance her by taking the offensive abilities though. The ones which fire thorns around her ...

November 10, 2009 4:48:29 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Queen of Thorns overpowered = No

Queen of Thorns Underpowered = No 

Queen of Thorns useless in the hands of those who can't play as her = yes (but that applies to everything in life) =P

Queen of Thorns epic in the hands of those who know how to use here = Yes *and please don't turn that into an innuendo  

In agreement with that strategy maybe only suiting that map. In disagreement with "have her held in place til uproot finishes". She already has a charge up time, her attacks put her IN range of the towers (though thorns shield deals with that unless archer towers cause they wear the shield down quickly). She already has enough on her plate without having to stay in place while uprooting which would leave her open to a potential instant kill. And yes she does fall pretty quickly even in closed form and bramble shield (though the maxed one takes longer to break). Also to challenge the point that she can't really take on enemy demigods one on one. She can, even with the lack of stun and disrupt, though it is harder, which makes it that much sweeter when you shred an enemy after a heated battle. As for one of the other points that generals should not be designed to kill things one on one (because thats an assassins job) I agree. Though can someone tell that to Errebus?

Opinion made =P make of it what you will =P nothing in this was intended to be malicious =P  

November 10, 2009 9:45:54 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Dude. Necroing a BETA FEEDBACK post? Really?

Still, interesting that they thought QOT was OP. How much damage did uproot USED to do?

November 10, 2009 11:17:16 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

whoah did not see how old that forum was  

 

My bad  

 

November 10, 2009 11:41:03 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Mooglepies,
I agree with many of the points raised above.

oAs above though, she has no spike capability against other demigods; she finds it extremely difficult to kill other players as she has neither snares nor stuns.

I fine this to be the major argument against queen of thorns, and from in game experience this is all people seem to give a damn about; killing other demigods and trying to get a massive amount of money. In some cases money which they never use to strengthen our own defense even when asked once or twice, back to the point some people just can’t accept the fact that she is not meant for demigod killing, she is a siege and survive specialist and I have never escaped a 3 on 1 with any other demigod besides her. I do agree shamblers need fixing, and uproot needs a secondary effect which stuns anything with in the vicinity of that tower, but besides that sh is fine.

 

Stardock Forums v1.0.0.0    #108435  walnut2   Server Load Time: 00:00:00.0000828   Page Render Time:

Stardock Magazine | Register | Online Privacy Policy | Terms of Use

Copyright ?? 2012 Stardock Entertainment and Gas Powered Games. Demigod is a trademark of Gas Powered Games. All rights reserved. All other trademarks and copyrights are the properties of their respective owners. Windows, the Windows Vista Start button and Xbox 360 are trademarks of the Microsoft group of companies, and 'Games for Windows' and the Windows Vista Start button logo are used under license from Microsoft. ?? 2012 Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. All rights reserved. AMD, the AMD Arrow logo and combinations thereof are trademarks of Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.