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[Feature] Solve the quitter problem. Add smart bots and allow for mid-game joins.

By on January 6, 2009 5:09:52 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I think games like Left 4 Dead solved the "quitter" problem in an excelent way. In L4D you cannot win with less than 2 characters. Nor can you garantee that someone will stick with you for 2 hours straight when you play on expert and restart a few times. Nor can you garantee that the person you play with does not suck.

Well they solved the issue by doing the following:

1) When a player leaves he is replaced by a BOT. The bot is actually a pretty decent player so its not much of a loss (all bot teammates can suck and not be very fun though)

2) When a player goes afk, same as (1). However the player can rejoin.

3) Anyone can join a game in progress. They will just take control of a random player slot currently controlled by a bot.

 

Why not this for DG? A player leaves, he is replaced by an AI, and a player can join to replace the AI. The AI should be limited in how it spends the cash, but thats about it, maybe the AI can be told to buy a specific castle upgrade when money permits by players. No more "quitters" who must be kept track off because they are obviously bad people to play with. No more "quitters" who are just people who have kids or have house work and started a game, half an hour in realized that they can't stick around the other necessary half an hour.

 

 

 

+3 Karma | 20 Replies
January 6, 2009 5:40:57 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Option 1 already happens

Options 2 and 3 would be really nice if they could be implemented.

What would be with in option 3 is that multiplayer could be arranged without a "waiting period". Simply 2 (or even 1) people start with a number of open "bot" slots. They can start playing instead of waiting in the lobby. People in the lobby will be able to see which games have open slots and able to join those as well. The time the game has been in progress should be also shown so that players looking for group can avoid ones that may be almost ending. New players should, I believe, always join the side with the least number of human players or, if equal, the losing side, based on character level and flags held.

This would really help keep the game flowing by bypassing the boring "lobby" phase while also allowing players a much greater choice of games to join. I can already see the chance of a losing side getting an experienced player in and suddenly the whole dynamic of the game changes and it becomes difficult again.

January 6, 2009 6:42:10 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

2) would be cool

but

3) will lead to more people leaving because people will think "oh well I'm not a bad guy when I leave because someone else can jump in instead of me so no harm is done":

January 6, 2009 7:09:42 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting TheBigOne,

3) will lead to more people leaving because people will think "oh well I'm not a bad guy when I leave because someone else can jump in instead of me so no harm is done":

 

Why would people want to leave the game in the first place? If they have a good reason they would have left anyway. If they don't have a good reason (say because they're losing) then they might as well have conceded.

January 6, 2009 8:04:26 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

have you ever played online shooters? Once you give people the option to leave without theoretically spoiling the game they will leave once they notice they have lost.

January 6, 2009 9:37:10 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

What do you mean by "online shooters"? FPS?

And again, if someone is leaving the game to avoid defeat, then they are in effect conceding. Where's the problem?

January 6, 2009 10:33:42 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

erm i actually agree with all parts up there, but at 3) an aditional feature would be needed i think:

a statistic about players which join the game where you can see how often they played, maybe wins/looses stats and  how often they left a game.

i think its actually annoying if you play someone and he ever leaves without any punishment if you can beat him up. with such a statistic he would think about it twice maybe, because somewhen he just will get kicked by everyone for high leaver-statistics.

January 6, 2009 12:07:41 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

You guys might notice a currently inactive key in the online lobby called "Instant Action"

I wonder what it will do?

January 6, 2009 12:39:41 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I am currently in the quakelive beta and I don't think I had a single Team Deathmatch where all people stayed til the end yet, it doesn't hurt that much in a public quake game as you don't level up in quake and all chars are the same but do you think people would really enjoy taking over a demigod of someone else which might be not the demigod you like and which likely is behind gold and levelwise or might have picked the skills in an order you don't like?

Ke5trel, Instant action most likely will be either automatch or jumping into a random hosted game.

January 6, 2009 1:06:09 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Ke5trel, Instant action most likely will be either automatch or jumping into a random hosted game.

O right.  That makes sense. 

I'm 

January 6, 2009 1:58:03 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

TheBigOne, that is why I suggested it shows the number of minutes the game's been running. If it's more than 10-20 minutes most would avoid it but the first 10 mins is barely a few levels. Granted not choosing your DG still sucks but at least you can expect that

January 6, 2009 2:48:02 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting db0,
What do you mean by "online shooters"? FPS?

And again, if someone is leaving the game to avoid defeat, then they are in effect conceding. Where's the problem?
The problem is the AI of the bot doesn't compare with a human controlling the avatar. While some people are in it to win, I guess some are in it to have fun, and part of the fun is human interaction and challenge, playing against bots you can do in offline mode, who wants that?

January 6, 2009 3:15:47 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I'm not saying you should do that but if someone figures the game is a lost cause, they're going to quit anyway and be replaced by a bot already.

January 6, 2009 3:22:32 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

This would be great, but I don't think the engine could handle it.

January 9, 2009 12:18:53 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

why should the engine not be able to handle that? im not that experienced in AI but if the player left, where is the difference between starting a new game and continuing with a equipped and upleveled character for the AI?

January 9, 2009 9:03:34 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Replies to all points above:

1) People leaving online games if they feel that they are losing:

- Yes that is true if it is a one-match game.

- Games like Savage 2 where maps change, teams shuffle don't have the same problem. Savage 2 is free, I say download it and see how JOINING A GAME is done. It is quite different than what you are used to in a FPS and ensures teams are even, and keep shuffling every round. I like that idea better than the way joining games is done in DG. It enourages people to stay in games, mainly because you will play again, probably with better people next time around, meanwhile practice and have fun.

2) People can't always stay.

- It is a fact of life, people can't always dedicate an hr or 2 to the game. If this is a requirement you will only get hardcore gamers to play, not casual gamers or people with families. Look at RTS games, you have fixed teams but how often does an RTS last an hr? Usually 10-15 minutes, 1 hr is 1 noob vs 1 noob. Experts will plow through the game in 15 minutes. In DG games won't be shorter than 30 minutes, and go as long as 1 hr or more.

3) The game is an rpg.

- To counter my own point (3) this game IS an RPG. To join mid-game and have to play someone else's build will be rather unappealing. Also this is an RPG so you might join only to find yourself heavily underpowered and unwinable regardless of any incentives or perks to joining mid-game.

- What would be nice is when you join you get to chose to keep all items or sell all for 100% value and try your own spec, same with stats. That way it won't be so awful joining a game mid-game.

- There has to be some sort of incentive: If you join mid-game you WONT LOSE STATS. So joining mid game means either gain a win or lose nothing, so there is an incentive, you join mostly for fun.

- After the game ends you don't exit like you would in Warcraft going back to the chat room, the game should take you back to the game lobby where you can just play again with the people you just played with.

4) Friends

- This is an idea from Steam, but very effective in removing quiters, and encouraging good players, or at least encouraging people to stick with people who they enjoy playing with without enforcing the need for clans and guilds.

- You can see all the players you played with this game, last game, all games say in the last week. You can just click-add-friend them. That means that if last game you played with some great people, add them to firends (if they like you, oponent or ally), and look for them in other games. This way you lost to someone? get in touch with them, they can teach you, you can have fun with them, it would be great.

- People just quitting won't get many "friends" which means that they won't find lots of people who they just enjoy playing with.

- Last played with list will show how long the game lasted and when the person quit so you don't need to remember "who was the quitter?"

- Finding friends should be easy: A friends list with a click-join gain (and game status) so you can join them quickly without having to look for their game.

January 9, 2009 9:10:19 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

In all honesty, I don't know if I'd want to join a game in progress with a Demigod I didnt pick with abilities I don't want.

But that's just me. If you could pick which DG to search for and have it blank out all abilities, that'd be nice. But if not, I don't think I'd ever want to do that.

January 10, 2009 12:30:21 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I belive the architecture of the SupCom engine isnt capable of mid game joining so, Anyway its better to keep people playing by giving bad stats if they leave et.c.

 

The way they do it in WoW is actually really good

15 min when you cant join another game if you existed using the Disconnect button, this way people who really has to leave can do so while at the same time it removes the "Fuck im losing I just quit now and join another game where Im winning"

January 10, 2009 1:31:31 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

guild wars employs this system as well, its only 5 minutes there but it had been enough for most people to stop leaving games in the random arena.

January 10, 2009 3:18:54 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

A point well made. If sup com engine can't handle mid game joins what can we do...

 

However if we have AIs on the team, team mates should be able to direct the AI what to do:

Behavior:

Stick close to other DGs in battle.

Attack enemy buildings.

Hunt enemy DGs.

 

Purchasing Decisions:

Focus on upgrading team.

Focus on upgrading self.

Split focus on team and self.

January 10, 2009 3:25:44 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

My big pro with 3 is the person could suck orthe team is already leaving. Also since most games are like 10-20 min long by the time someone leaves their on like level 10-15.

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