[Gameplay] Stunlocking

By Ke5trel on December 30, 2008 1:04:39 PM from

So we have confirmation that stuns will get reworked in the next patch. You know this is a good thing if you have ever played against a team takes turns stunning you until you are dead.

At the same time, stun chaining or locking represents the most obvious tactical teamwork in the game right now, so it would be nice if instead of nerfing stuns to oblivion the devs could alter them to have different but complimentary effects.

The main stunlocks right now come from some combo of TB, Erebus, and Rook. So if we alter each of their stuns to do something the others don't do we get interesting synergies beyond "stun opponent helpless until dead."

Rook needs to be able to close distance on his faster opponents, but he could do that effectively with a interrupt/massive slow effect.

Erebus and TB both need crowd control, but I'd like to see Erebus's affect Demigods more as a straight knockdown/interrupt. It's fine against grunts as is.

Torchbearer's Frost Nova could root demis but not silence them.

So now if TB novas a Regulus the Reg has a chance to warp or port out, unless Erebus is there with his interrupt or Rook is there with his knockdown. In that case Reg loses his port and some time but he has *some* options - he can get up and pew pew or restart the cast.

These are rough rough ideas but they point to current tendencies for stun to do *everything* (stun, silence, root, and stack too). As soon as you seperate out effects you get more interesting possibilities of play, and those characters that don't have strong stun effects (like Regulus) don't have to run as soon as two opponents reach level 5.

+118 Karma | 34 Replies

I like this idea, although it does introduce a certain amount of "The best team consists of this demigod and that demigod", where you see a great deal of teams that are the same because the demigods they choose have the best synergy with each other. Not entirely sure if that's bad or godo to be honest with you.

I'm all for the suggestions. The stuns should complement each other and not universally stack. As they are now it is like a temp freeze and the stacking just extends the freeze time until death. With that said I still think Rook should be stun immune.

I like synergy combo chaining, I just feel that it shouldn't determine the winners early on. Or a team of randoms facing off against a lan or vent spike team can maybe spec against it somehow with anti stun locking skills, armor or consumables.

The better team should still win though. I'm torn between both sides because I can't wait to be on vent counting down "ok.. this target get ready 3...2...1 spike!"

I think after someones been stunned they should be immune to stun for the next like 10 secs but stun should stay the same.

What's the problem with stunlocking?
Oh, 4 people can focus on one enemy and kill it? Duh! Get the rest of your team to hit them.

Stuns are also available in DotA and stunlocking is also possible there. It is a good team strategy, yes. But it is in no way overpowered. Please don't nerf good gameplay mechanics

Quoting Soccer194,

reply 4

I think after someones been stunned they should be immune to stun for the next like 10 secs but stun should stay the same.

That is completely rediculous. Stunning does not need to be nerfed into the ground, only tweaked for future balance. Stuns are powerful now because you are playing 2v2's, in a 4v4 or 5v5 game do you think 3 or 4 heroes can walk up to 1 hero and stun lock and kill them without themself getting killed? You need to realise the larger scope for balancing not just in 2v2 games.

The main stuns in this game are not instant click and stun moves from long distances, a skill you can develop is actually knowing how to evade the opponent's stun abilities. I agree that tweaks are needed but such major changes are not necessary.

- Evanescent

the demigods that can mass stun will be able to stunlock an enemy demigod easily and theirs is nothing that u can do to stop them. Also someone said earlier that stunlocking was in dota so it should be in demigod. Saying that means absolutly nothing if u dodn't give more info on how good it is. another reason I dodn't like stunlocking is because many of the maps have lanes that take time to go to another lane allowing a team of stunners to pick the enemy Dg's off by teleporting and stunlocking.

Quoting Soccer194,

reply 7

It is easier to stunlock in DOTA then it is to stunlock in Demigod. Most of the DOTA stuns are just instant point and click stuns where as demigod's stuns are melee or a physical boulder rolling to you. Demigod stuns can be dodged with experience and ability. So there is something you can do to stop them... just dont run into the boulder and control your character more cautiously if you are against a stunner.

Demigod stuns can be dodged with experience and ability. So there is something you can do to stop them... just dont run into the boulder and control your character more cautiously if you are against a stunner.

This is true up to a point. That point is reached when you are not playing as a stunner and the other team stunganks as a unit on a small map like prison. At that point you need to run away fast whenever they come anywhere near you, which means they have complete map control gg. If you really think micro balances current stunchaining then you haven't played a good stungank team.

like ke5trel said a good stungank team can easily control the team like that and also they could have 1 guy stun u than the rest tele in for the kill.

Quoting Ke5trel,

reply 9

If you really think micro balances current stunchaining then you haven't played a good stungank team.

A good team like Flurus and Wagnard? Or do you call them a bad team. I managed to dodge most Rook boulders that game with my 350ping due to clairvoyance and quick reaction with the wand of speed. It was my 2nd and currently last online game of Demigod and i managed to realise how to avoid being team ganked by their stun on Prison map, where as i was watching my random partner run into it many times and complain that the game is completely unbalanced just because he played into their hands everytime. The Torch Bearer on their team was just full fire because their strategy is to Rook boulder and then team gank, but if you evade the first stun then you won't die.

So yes, I really think micro balances current stunchaining as i have practiced it against the best team playing this Demigod beta and succeeded greatly, regardless that they won the game.

thats with boulder if u are up against an erebus or torchbearer ice its very hard to dodge espicially if your a melee DG. Now that was with 2 people if your up against 5, all with mass stun than your outta luck.

Yep Flurus and Wagnard are always fun. I stand corrected if you are beating their stuns with micro. But if they are hitting you with boulder first and playing fire TB then you are getting the carrot, not the stick.

For the sake of argument, though - it's possible to avoid dying with strong micro. Is it possible in this build to *win* against a stungank team?

That is something i cannot debate with you at this time Ke5trel, for the only reason that i simply cannot connect to people's games whatsoever, the fact that so many Beta testers have disappeared due to all these network problems leaves me less out for luck trying to find any other Oceanic players. I have to wait until they patch this connection issue that is lingering for me to discuss more on actual player vs player gameplay.

He he thanks for the comment on our team guys.

For my part the most interesting fight We have encounter is ke5trel + heavenfall.

You guys actually give us challenge.

And indeed a strong micro and alert player will counter those bowling ball. you just have to think a step ahead of me if you can

or u get items to increase speed but that is mainly for if your trying to dodge boulder roll.

For my part the most interesting fight We have encounter is ke5trel + heavenfall.

You guys actually give us challenge.

That was a good game

So I did a lil research and there is a favor item currently which strips any negative effects on your DG. If you know you are facing a stungank (henceforth known as a spike, per Mcmjon) team you and your team can use that to sort of neutralize stuns but there are a couple of problems with it:

1. You only get one favor item. The spike team will probably be using Heavenfall as theirs, and if you aren't then you will consistently fall three levels below them. (nerf Heavenfall please)

2. You need to make sure you use the free action item at the right time and it has a long cooldown. The really grim spike combo right now is Erebus and Rook. I would trigger after Erebus batport + stun + bite but before Rook Boulder + Hammerslam. Obviously this is a pretty narrow tactical window, and there are no guarantees that your enemy will follow the textbook.

So I did a lil research and there is a favor item currently which strips any negative effects on your DG.

I know this a dumb question but how do get favor items.

I sent you a pm which will hopefully answer that question, Iprometheus

Good suggestion.

Reading your analysis, my concerns for the game's tactical depth have been amplified.

I think that not only are alternatives to stunlocking required, but also other teamwork-interaction systems.

- Interrupts and Channeling (could be a good mechanic for potion use and powerful spells)

- Map Complexity (I have a thread up about it).

- Conditional Skills (trigger relative to factors like enemy remaining vs max health, mana or other tactical or positioning variables)

- Someting innovative that will add another dimention to this game besides the standard CoRPG toolbox.

The game has some of these concepts, but I believe they have to be greately expanded upon before release, otherwise it will be a rather shallow title.

So I'm going to add one more problem, and also apologize for not testing this out before posting it:

The item doesn't remove stun effects, in fact, you have no access to your UI when stunned. It might be useful in other ways, but my shining new strat is in tatters :/ (Thanks for the heads up, Wagnard and Flurus)

In a 2v1 situation the stun team kills the other guy, duh. It's just like in DotA: Don't go in 2v1 and expect to survive. It's just stupid and certainly no sign of imbalance if you get owned.

And again as in DotA: If you get stunned, get your team to help you out. In a 5v5 battle your 4 team members should be able to take out one of their heroes while they are wasting all their stuns on you.

And yet again DotA: Positioning wins the game. Be the team that ganks on the enemy, not the other way around.

From what I read I'd say Demigod needs more ways to disable enemy DGs and not less. Yet another DotA comparison: Most heroes have some kind of disable and those that don't can still buy items for that. Not all stun of cause but a variety of snares and stuff like that.

Stungank teams are focused on killing enemy warlords so more likely they are ignoring their creeps. Just play a creep killing build, focus on flag grabbing and boost your creeps. From my experience tough creep play always win over buffed gank play.

OK so we've seen this work on a larger map, per earlier comments. Heavenfall and I got our cats out early and held onto the Leviathan neutral portals and even though Wagnard and Flurus had twice as many kills we won. Not my point, and not always going to work in the current build because spikers can spend the gold they get from DG kills

In a 2v1 situation the stun team kills the other guy, duh. It's just like in DotA: Don't go in 2v1 and expect to survive. It's just stupid and certainly no sign of imbalance if you get owned.

And again as in DotA: If you get stunned, get your team to help you out. In a 5v5 battle your 4 team members should be able to take out one of their heroes while they are wasting all their stuns on you.

Again, valid, but we are talking past each other.

Have you played on Prison map? No lanes and made for 2 v 2. Right now a spike team is playing as some combo of Erebus and Boulder Rook or Ice Torchbearer and Boulder Rook. If your team goes up against these coordinated spike combos with any other DGs you will most likely be beaten. If you go without any of the above you will most likely be rolled:

As Evanescent points out, with strong micro you can avoid the stuns and run, but it means you are ceding map and grunt control to the other side. Prison doesn't let you sneak around the edge of a conflict to cap a flag or farm xp, it's pretty much just one wide lane.

Running in to help a stunned comrade means you are probably going to die too because:

1. You are doing half the damage and have half the skill choices they do

2. They will kill the stunned player in about 10 seconds, because spike teams use ability combos to 2-3 hit most any DG and abilities are not affected by armor, so they will be able to focus on the "rescuer" very quickly.

But let's pull this out to a 5 v 5. I only need two DGs to spike, say an Erebus and a Rook. I'm going to have another Rook and maybe an Ice TB standing by, and then a Regulus or a Beast for the damage, just on the off chance all my bait's teammates come piling in to play hero. It's called a trap.

Then you have 3-4 completely immobilized and helpless players and as long as I don't get greedy I'm going to be pulling a bunch of gold off of 2 or 3 of them at no loss, which I can then use to upgrade my grunts, my buildings, and my equipment. And I can push lanes and flags without resistance, GG.

Of course you won't see this in a PUG, but we are talking organized teams here, and it will eventually come down to who can spike more effectively.

So what's the big deal? Just that only 3 DGs currently work in spike combos, and it would be nice to use the other 5. And no, giving them stuns too isn't the answer.

Finally, this thread didn't start as an objection to spike stuns, just to the stackable, completely immobilizing and identical stuns produced by 3 DGs we have now.

Peace

It is the Rook fault!

The Forums Are Now Closed!

The content will remain as a historical reference, thank you.

[Gameplay] Stunlocking