Demigod vs DOTA

Wow! I really didn't expect this thing to be ressurected. I expected demigod vs dota comparisons, but in new threads.

At any rate, you should listen to what Kestrel says. As a Dota player, it bothers the heck out of me when some person comes in saying the heroes are totally imba after playing a couple games and getting rocked. It takes some time to get a feel for the game flow and how to "get ahead"

Quoting JinxOfSin,

reply 1

Wow! I really didn't expect this thing to be ressurected. I expected demigod vs dota comparisons, but in new threads.

At any rate, you should listen to what Kestrel says. As a Dota player, it bothers the heck out of me when some person comes in saying the heroes are totally imba after playing a couple games and getting rocked. It takes some time to get a feel for the game flow and how to "get ahead"

Yes! You are a good man. Well, probably anyways. And like any DotA player will tell you, a skilled player can beat a new player with nearly any hero. Without meaning offense, it may not be the hero that's causing you to lose, if you know what I mean.

Quoting Cerulean_Shaman,

reply 2

Quoting JinxOfSin, reply 1Wow! I really didn't expect this thing to be ressurected. I expected demigod vs dota comparisons, but in new threads.

At any rate, you should listen to what Kestrel says. As a Dota player, it bothers the heck out of me when some person comes in saying the heroes are totally imba after playing a couple games and getting rocked. It takes some time to get a feel for the game flow and how to "get ahead"
Yes! You are a good man. Well, probably anyways. And like any DotA player will tell you, a skilled player can beat a new player with nearly any hero. Without meaning offense, it may not be the hero that's causing you to lose, if you know what I mean.

Well balance issues may be much easily to find / more apparent when you compare that demi-god has only 8 different characters vs dota's 93 I think it's up to now. Also there's very little equipment in comparison, there's not big choices like whether to get monkey king bar or sange & yasha first. Reason i'll probably like demi-gods more is the learning curve is smaller so hopefully more people will get into it.

I've been playing dota for like 4-5 years and here's some of my 1st day impressions of the game:

Gameplay is definitely DOTA-inspired but items feels more like another WC map called ENFOS with an additional strategic element to upgrade creeps like another custom map called Rabbits & Sheeps. I won't touch on the network connectivity and channel chatting issues as this would be more of Warcraft vs DG rather than Dota vs DG. BattleNet has been around for like close to 10yrs or more.. and for now all I can say is no other multiplayer system from any gaming company has yet to come close to its stability & functionality..

Whats good about DG

Nice DG models with some artistically scuplted maps.

Very low learning curve (maybe becoz of my prior experience with similar maps from WC3)

Varied skill tree which allows for slightly different choices in chracter development

Added strategic element in using gold for building/army/gold/xp upgrade

Added strategic element for capturing flags for their bestowed benefits

Slightly more item slots

The ghostly effect when you are dead...

What I like about Dota that isnt in DG (hope to see this in future versions of DG)

Very fluid controls and feedback - this allows for micro'g as well as last hits/deny.

I know exactly how much each kill (creeps/buildings/heroes) gives me.. In DG I only get to know my bounty sum if I killed another enemy DG. For that matter, I will know exactly if landed a last hit and if I have successfully denied a creep in dota.. We need better information feedback in DG.

Multi level terrain and jungle for evasion/creeping/ambushes. In DG its either open grounds or flat platforms which juz lack the subtleties a forest cover can offer.. I juz need 1 quality map rather than 5 or 10 same type maps which only differ in placement/size or color.. (talk about quality over quantity)

Items. Upgradable items such that your items "progresses" along with you.. In DG you must sell off your earlier items to get a better version of it late game.. Certain equipped items in dota also gives visual feedback that it has been equipped.

Fixed camera view/angle. I know some say this is an improvement for DG but truthfully in intense battles we care more about efficiency and effectiveness. Fix view allows the use of your minimap without getting lost on the directions.. Right now when i need to view another part of the map fast I need to zoom out then click then zoom in again quickly, then using arrow keys to adjust my screen position.. In RTS we're used to quickly getting around by juz using the minimap but DG changed all that.. To make it worse, when you die.. camera angles are being reset..

Absence of insta-heal healing items.. In dota harrasing your opponent and forcing him back to heal (hence denying xp and creep kills) is an important part of lane control. Also when you stage a perfect ambush on a weaker opponent.. that party should only be allowed to escape with better skills.. right now all you need to do is to equip healing potions to stay alive.. for a lack of a better word.. its a totally noob and easy way of staying alive.. One fun part of dota is in knowing that you can kill as well as be killed.. These instant-heals are taking away some fun away from it..

Day and Night.. Provides a more dynamic gameplay where night affects vision and allows for ambushes/escapes as well as ability changes (nightstalker)

Neutral creeps. If you are constantly being targetted and is weak.. you can choose to go kill neutrals in jungles that will give you a chance in leveling/golding.. in DG.. if you are noob and marked.. you are dead meat as there's no where to hide.

Creep agression.. Killing enemy heroes in dota requires planning since your agression level goes up while attacking an enemy hero.. nearby towers as well as enemy creeps will then all target you.. Towers and creeps in DG seems to be pretty stupid.. In fact even at early levels.. you can just simply gank enemies right at their towers.. Ermmm.. isnt towers supposed to keep you safe from harm?? and why are your stupid creep allies right beside you not even bothering while you are being mercilessly slaughtered???

Even playing field st start.. no favour items (weren't we talking about wanting to be noob friendly?).. No imba blinks and stats advantage straight off from the start. Its all even.. fair & square.

You can choose game modes and in a typical dota game.. there are no duplicate heroes.. In DG.. 5 regulus can be sniping at you 20s into the game and next thing you know.. the screen turned gray..

Sound effects.. units simply sound better in dota and hearing "GodLike" or "Triple Kill" in dota is much more satisfying than the one in DG. I cleared out the entire enemy team once but somehow the commentary that came wasn't gratifying at all..

Skill design.. some dota characters have combo skills that synergise well with each other.. and only by practising that you can be a pro and differentiate yourself from noobs.. Example like tiny.. there's 2 separate skills - toss and avalanche, but if you can toss an enemy into the avalanche the damage is amplified greatly.. DG abilities (at least those I played so far) doesnt seem to synergise as well.. lacking its depth like in dota.. (although in DG you can say the depth is mitigated by having more breadth). And please don't take depth as just having a more powerful version of the same skill..

Roshan... Adds to the fun.. need I say more?

Secret quest every 6.x9 version of dota.. I know this is lame but hey.. its fun!

I know some of these may not mean anything to you if you havent played dota before.. but if DG is supposed to attract dota players like me... then this is probably the kind of impression that we will feel while playing this game.

I just tried this game out at a friend's place and ran into this thread. I didn't bother reading pages 2-8 so hopefully I'm not reiterating a huge point, as it looks like replies from after the game's release has just begun trickling in. As background, I've played dota for longer than I'd care to admit and this game for roughly an afternoon, so I may have missed some points about the latter.

The game has promise, but definitely falls short in my opinion. The single biggest issue in my opinion is that the character customization in DG while interesting, still cannot compare to dota. While there are certainly different ways to play each demigod in terms of skill paths and item builds, this is still very limited in comparison. Because of this, the metagame for DG will never be nearly as diverse, and thus will not be as interesting (again, to me) in the long run.

Another point was mentioned earlier I think. I feel like the maps in DG, while aesthetically amazing, are still too one-dimensional for my tastes. The lack of cover and heights for one takes away so much depth from the game, as they really are integral I think to not only the strategic aspect in terms of line of sight, but also the feel of the level.

I still have great hopes for this game given the history of Stardock games and their continued support, but as of now, I think I will wait to see how the game develops before pulling the trigger.

Mwuahahahaha

Quoting SmithJoe123,

reply 5

I just tried this game out at a friend's place and ran into this thread. I didn't bother reading pages 2-8 so hopefully I'm not reiterating a huge point, as it looks like replies from after the game's release has just begun trickling in. As background, I've played dota for longer than I'd care to admit and this game for roughly an afternoon, so I may have missed some points about the latter.

The game has promise, but definitely falls short in my opinion. The single biggest issue in my opinion is that the character customization in DG while interesting, still cannot compare to dota. While there are certainly different ways to play each demigod in terms of skill paths and item builds, this is still very limited in comparison. Because of this, the metagame for DG will never be nearly as diverse, and thus will not be as interesting (again, to me) in the long run.

Another point was mentioned earlier I think. I feel like the maps in DG, while aesthetically amazing, are still too one-dimensional for my tastes. The lack of cover and heights for one takes away so much depth from the game, as they really are integral I think to not only the strategic aspect in terms of line of sight, but also the feel of the level.

I still have great hopes for this game given the history of Stardock games and their continued support, but as of now, I think I will wait to see how the game develops before pulling the trigger.

Explain the diversity in Dota? Because last time I played, all the pro's played a very select few heroes and played very well known and proven builds. Demigod is much more closer to Dota than people will admit, I personally think it's better.

Some things are missing like more Demigods and different level themes (I actually love the current levels, but I would admit a jungle\forest or ocean map or something would be nice). Item recipies add a tad bit more depth (not much though) and the UI could use a bit of changing to feed us more info. Besides that, I think the game is far better than

Dota. Given time, it'll only improve.

Quoting Cerulean_Shaman,

reply 7

Explain the diversity in Dota? Because last time I played, all the pro's played a very select few heroes and played very well known and proven builds. Demigod is much more closer to Dota than people will admit, I personally think it's better.

Some things are missing like more Demigods and different level themes (I actually love the current levels, but I would admit a jungle\forest or ocean map or something would be nice). Item recipies add a tad bit more depth (not much though) and the UI could use a bit of changing to feed us more info. Besides that, I think the game is far better than

Dota. Given time, it'll only improve.

If by pro's you mean league players, then I agree that the hero selection in ultra-high level play is generally pretty consistent. The reasoning for this though is that the teams know the combination will definitely work, and chances are they have played with that setup more than a few times. To say that the hero combinations are ALWAYS the same though is completely untrue. Every few versions the metagame is changed fairly drastically. This is not to say that hero selection is 100% varied in other levels of play, but the fact that there is a choice of other heroes//other skills makes it have more diversity. And yes, I do play w/ trash heroes "for the lulz".

In reply to your comment about the jungle/forest/ocean maps, you seem to have missed my point there. I meant that the strategic depth provided by each map is limited due to the lack of depth and cover.

Quoting Cerulean_Shaman,

reply 7

Explain the diversity in Dota? Because last time I played, all the pro's played a very select few heroes and played very well known and proven builds. Demigod is much more closer to Dota than people will admit, I personally think it's better.

First and foremost: 90+ heroes. Yes they may not have as many skills as Demigod's do but so what? The heroes in DoTA are all unique and some possess abilities that are far more advanced that any ability in Demigod. Yes a modded map of another game has more diverse and unique abilities then a full production, full priced game. Also, i only play All-Random games so i disregarded your "people only pick certain heroes"

Secondly: Terrain Diversity. DoTA has ONE map, and that ONE map is more diverse then any of the maps in Demigod. There are hills, ramps, different heights on the terrain that allow for longer or shorter vision and the height also effects auto attacks. The paths and trees in DoTA cause for alot of variety in how you wish to navigate and control the map. The trees also play a part in pathing and strategy as they are interactable (result of war3's engine, but there is no reason that Demigod could not contain advanced/strategical terrain)

Thirdly: Items. Most of the items in Demigod seem to just be loaded with random stats and all the Demigod usually end up with the same few items every game. That may be a similar case for DoTA but the difference is that DoTA actually has class specific itemisation, some items are more specific for some heroes where as some items will never work on some other heroes. Each hero has a variety of item builds to choose from even though one specific build may seem the best, it doesnt remove the fact that other builds are available. (This is like saying Demigod skill tree has one best build but doesnt remove the fact that there are several builds).

I think i have explained what you were looking for.

Quoting SmithJoe123,

reply 8

Quoting Cerulean_Shaman,
reply 7
Explain the diversity in Dota? Because last time I played, all the pro's played a very select few heroes and played very well known and proven builds. Demigod is much more closer to Dota than people will admit, I personally think it's better.

Some things are missing like more Demigods and different level themes (I actually love the current levels, but I would admit a jungle\forest or ocean map or something would be nice). Item recipies add a tad bit more depth (not much though) and the UI could use a bit of changing to feed us more info. Besides that, I think the game is far better than

Dota. Given time, it'll only improve.

If by pro's you mean league players, then I agree that the hero selection in ultra-high level play is generally pretty consistent. The reasoning for this though is that the teams know the combination will definitely work, and chances are they have played with that setup more than a few times. To say that the hero combinations are ALWAYS the same though is completely untrue. Every few versions the metagame is changed fairly drastically. This is not to say that hero selection is 100% varied in other levels of play, but the fact that there is a choice of other heroes//other skills makes it have more diversity. And yes, I do play w/ trash heroes "for the lulz".

In reply to your comment about the jungle/forest/ocean maps, you seem to have missed my point there. I meant that the strategic depth provided by each map is limited due to the lack of depth and cover.

I agree with you there, more choices are more choices even if they are never chosen I suppose. I always tend to play the "underdog" heroes myself simply because I enjoyed playing them though the ultimate fact is pro or not particular heroes and builds were so popular it was rare to see anything else. Most games myself or Virid would get a moan and get trashed on for picking some heroes. That's just an example. Over time, more heroes will exist as will more items. When mod support is added, that will only increase.

As for the different type of levels, I didn't miss your point, I likely was not clear enough by what I meant. As a rts gamer different terrain = stratedgy in my mind, so I felt saying it was not needed. Ocean maps would have parts that would slow down movement as you trudge through water or allow unique bridges/ect to bet activated by controlling particular flags.

Jungle maps would add destructables (at least I'd hope), ect. Depth in this game wouldn't do much asides from effect fog of war like in dota. They could improve on it of course, I suppose. As for cover, it won't make much of a difference. Very few heroes benifited from the trees in DoTa and fog of war served as cover far better than the trees themselves. Considering you can turn the camera in Demigod, it would be even less useful unless they hard coded some kind of benifit.

I'm all for varying terrain, but more likely than not it will come from mods considering the amount of extra work it would likely take.

Quoting Xinoxlx,

reply 3

Quoting Cerulean_Shaman,
reply 2

Quoting JinxOfSin, reply 1Wow! I really didn't expect this thing to be ressurected. I expected demigod vs dota comparisons, but in new threads.

At any rate, you should listen to what Kestrel says. As a Dota player, it bothers the heck out of me when some person comes in saying the heroes are totally imba after playing a couple games and getting rocked. It takes some time to get a feel for the game flow and how to "get ahead"
Yes! You are a good man. Well, probably anyways. And like any DotA player will tell you, a skilled player can beat a new player with nearly any hero. Without meaning offense, it may not be the hero that's causing you to lose, if you know what I mean.

Well balance issues may be much easily to find / more apparent when you compare that demi-god has only 8 different characters vs dota's 93 I think it's up to now. Also there's very little equipment in comparison, there's not big choices like whether to get monkey king bar or sange & yasha first. Reason i'll probably like demi-gods more is the learning curve is smaller so hopefully more people will get into it.

As I was saying before, the Hero choices in Dota are realistically not as varied as it should be to no fault. Balancing is hard work. There are also only a few more items unless they added a ton in my absence. Items like the "monkey king bar" are available through the relic shop, like the mage slayer for example. The only real difference is that we don't have recipies, something that will either be patched or modded in I'm sure. And all that does is offer a tiny dash of depth as to reach item C you need items A + B, bringing up some questions.

How useful are A and B to you during what parts of the game? Which do you get first? So on, and so on.

Quoting Cerulean_Shaman,

reply 10

Jungle maps would add destructables (at least I'd hope), ect. Depth in this game wouldn't do much asides from effect fog of war like in dota. They could improve on it of course, I suppose. As for cover, it won't make much of a difference. Very few heroes benifited from the trees in DoTa and fog of war served as cover far better than the trees themselves. Considering you can turn the camera in Demigod, it would be even less useful unless they hard coded some kind of benifit.

I'm all for varying terrain, but more likely than not it will come from mods considering the amount of extra work it would likely take.

As I was saying before, the Hero choices in Dota are realistically not as varied as it should be to no fault. Balancing is hard work. There are also only a few more items unless they added a ton in my absence. Items like the "monkey king bar" are available through the relic shop, like the mage slayer for example. The only real difference is that we don't have recipies, something that will either be patched or modded in I'm sure. And all that does is offer a tiny dash of depth as to reach item C you need items A + B, bringing up some questions.

How useful are A and B to you during what parts of the game? Which do you get first? So on, and so on.

Actually trees are more useful than you said it is.. Effective use of terrain is something that dota players learn to improve their skill level and this just adds on to the depth of dota. Here's some example:

Basic use of trees
Cover for ganks as well as provide stealth in moving around the map
Used by certain heroes for their abilities - Eg Rootfellen (Eye/Meld) & Furion (Treant summoning)

Intermediate use
Barrier for escape skills - Antimage/QOP/Morph/Puck/Mirana/Void/Blink dagger etc
Rerouting creep paths (such as by using broodmother's web to destroy large patch of trees to reveal neutral camp which will divert creeps)

Advance use
Juking around tight corners/crevices to escape pursuit
Trapping mechanism for Spirit Breaker's bash

Not sure if you know of all these strats.. but sometimes it is the case of you just dont know what you dont know..

Also contrary to what you say hero choices are really pretty varied in dota. I host dota games all the time and in an average game 8 out of 10 players will go random.. with only usually around 2-3 repicks. There are no particularly imba or weak heroes in dota.. each have a role and it is how you play them to synergise with your team since this is a 5v5 game afterall. In DG its 2 broad classification - Assasins vs Generals but in Dota it is 4 broad classifications:

Str Melee - typically tankers with high hp

Agi Melee - stong & fast attack/low hp

Agi Range - fast attack/low hp

Intel - usually with strong dmg spells/attacks/summons

In fact the assasins in dota really play and sound more like assasins than in DG (pun intended) - Stealth Assasin, Phantom Assasin, Nerubian Assasin, Templar Assasin.. and the general-like characters in dota are much more varied in their summons.. Here's some examples:

Furion - Treants that serve as gd meat shield

Necrolic - Flying minions with gd dmg and can scout

Lycanthrope - Wolves that have ability to learn crit and invisibility

Enigma - Watery minions that can propagate themselves by attacking

Beast Master - Summon beasts that can scout and slow

Undying - Spewing zombies that can slow

Lone Druid - Mega bear which can learn entangling attack

Nerubian Weaver - Invis minions that can scout

Invoker - Fiery minions that have high dmg

Broodmother - small spiderlings that have very low dmg but can slow and can propagate from killing enemies

Chen - Create an entire army with different creeps which have different abilities like stun/net/whirlwind/dmg aura/raise dead/mana burn/aoe nuke/purge/slow etc

Really.. I see general's summons as seriously lacking of depth compared to the above..

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