The Fun is Back!

By Sarcerok on September 12, 2008 1:40:38 PM from

Then something happened with Dungeon Seige 2. Gone was the cool spell progression. The skill trees added complexity without adding significant fun factor. Gaining "5% more of this" or such was really kind of boring and poorly balanced. The environments were great but so many bad game design "improvements" were made that I wondered if it was a different team designing this one. I tried to warn the dev team when I met with them the E3 prior to release but the demo was so short that it really hid the depth of the problems.

Then we have Space Seige. Again clearly designed by the same guys that brought us Dungeon Seige 2. Wow I just spent all my resources raising this gun's strength by 5%. Right before I found a better gun and threw away the old gun I wasted my resources on. Horrible game design, even worse than Dungeon Seige 2.

Now we have Demigod. Clearly a different team entirely than the team working on Space Seige. This game is fun. The design choice of having the grunts controlled by the AI was a brilliant departure from years (decades) of uninspired RTS designs. Letting the player focus on their avatar and not have to worry about being ganked right away due to the initial tower placements makes this game very approachable. I mostly like the skill trees a lot, and the artifacts you can equip are varied and high in coolness factor (not just "raises your attack by 5%").

I think balancing is needed to some extent in some skill trees, and particularly in the use of consumables. The "slow" Rook is really pretty fast still imo. On the other hand he really does not seem significantly tougher than the squishy demigods so I would like to see the differences in the demigods accentuated more so you feel like you are actually playing a different demigod (right now the skills trees vary but base stats are very similar across demigods). For instance the sniper guy (Regulus?) has a long range snipe, but the Rook is so fast that he can cover that extra distance in what seems like one second and pound back for even more damage, but this time area effect. That area effect means Rook is going to level a lot faster over time so it won't really matter how good Regulus is at kiting. I will wait till we see more of the game in beta to really get deep into balancing issues since there is really no point at this stage.

Anyways I am very happy with the results of the team working on Demigod so far. Even without seeing most of the content it is clear that you are starting with a new, fun, and fresh game design which is what matters in this market (presuming it ships in a relatively balanced/bug-free state).

0 Karma | 23 Replies

Yeah I think this game has tons of potential

Right now it's not that fun to me, though. But I think it'll become tons of fun.

quoting post

I was a huge fan of the original Dungeon Seige, and my whole family plays it. As you level you quickly go from a pitchfork/dagger/piece of meat to some really cool weapons and spells. It really felt heroic and the reactive xp system was great for both new and hardcore players.

Then something happened with Dungeon Seige 2. Gone was the cool spell progression. The skill trees added complexity without adding significant fun factor. Gaining "5% more of this" or such was really kind of boring and poorly balanced. The environments were great but so many bad game design "improvements" were made that I wondered if it was a different team designing this one. I tried to warn the dev team when I met with them the E3 prior to release but the demo was so short that it really hid the depth of the problems.

Then we have Space Seige. Again clearly designed by the same guys that brought us Dungeon Seige 2. Wow I just spent all my resources raising this gun's strength by 5%. Right before I found a better gun and threw away the old gun I wasted my resources on. Horrible game design, even worse than Dungeon Seige 2.

Now we have Demigod. Clearly a different team entirely than the team working on Space Seige. This game is fun. The design choice of having the grunts controlled by the AI was a brilliant departure from years (decades) of uninspired RTS designs. Letting the player focus on their avatar and not have to worry about being ganked right away due to the initial tower placements makes this game very approachable. I mostly like the skill trees a lot, and the artifacts you can equip are varied and high in coolness factor (not just "raises your attack by 5%").

I think balancing is needed to some extent in some skill trees, and particularly in the use of consumables. The "slow" Rook is really pretty fast still imo. On the other hand he really does not seem significantly tougher than the squishy demigods so I would like to see the differences in the demigods accentuated more so you feel like you are actually playing a different demigod (right now the skills trees vary but base stats are very similar across demigods). For instance the sniper guy (Regulus?) has a long range snipe, but the Rook is so fast that he can cover that extra distance in what seems like one second and pound back for even more damage, but this time area effect. That area effect means Rook is going to level a lot faster over time so it won't really matter how good Regulus is at kiting. I will wait till we see more of the game in beta to really get deep into balancing issues since there is really no point at this stage.

Anyways I am very happy with the results of the team working on Demigod so far. Even without seeing most of the content it is clear that you are starting with a new, fun, and fresh game design which is what matters in this market (presuming it ships in a relatively balanced/bug-free state).

1: this is a BETA , so please STFU about gameplay, at which you obviously have no idea of.

Adding 5 procent is what they called: "balanced". I must say your right about one thing; it sure is fun!

lifekatana - easy, killer - he didn't mean any harm

I thought Dungeon Siege 2 was the better game in pretty much every respect. The charge up abilities plus the special abilities for ranged and melee fighters alone made it much more interactive and enjoyable. Though some more guns for ranged weapons might have been nice... And I really should play the expansion one day.

Space Siege I was less enamoured with after playing the demo. As it's region-locked on Steam and not available via Impulse, I doubt I'll be purchasing it any time soon.

I believe Demigod is more of the team who made Supreme Commander for GPG. Not sure how many from the Siege games are on it. And, as lifekatana so politely pointed out, Demigod is still in beta. And more importantly, this is only "Phase 1" of the beta and "Phase 1" wasn't designed to be balanced, complete or even fun.

Expect a lot of things to change as the beta progresses.

Quoting innociv,

reply 1

Yeah I think this game has tons of potential

Right now it's not that fun to me, though. But I think it'll become tons of fun.

What he said.

I am not sure who lifekatana is trolling, he quoted my long post for no clear reason then posted two lines that seem to have no purpose other than to offend.

Quoting lifekatana,

reply 2

1: this is a BETA , so please STFU about gameplay, at which you obviously have no idea of.

Adding 5 procent is what they called: "balanced". I must say your right about one thing; it sure is fun!

Whoa lifekatana. Put down the "angry troll" pills and back away. No need to be an obnoxios a__ h____ in response to a very thoughtful post.

Seriously.

Quoting jdhas,

reply 7

Quoting lifekatana,
reply 2

1: this is a BETA , so please STFU about gameplay, at which you obviously have no idea of.

Adding 5 procent is what they called: "balanced". I must say your right about one thing; it sure is fun!

Whoa lifekatana. Put down the "angry troll" pills and back away. No need to be an obnoxios a__ h____ in response to a very thoughtful post.

Seriously.

I already apologized, but my post wasent send. I just get iritated by people who have never played online, then think themselves experts on the game, and then start complaining. Really, he is like the 40th's that is talking about gameplay. This is not even a beta; its a techie. IF there are bugs, tell them.

Again, I didn't mean it personal.

Yeah I can understand where lfie is coming from too, though it isn't tactful. :/

Theres been tons of people complaining about the balance, when the game isnt' meant to be balanced and it's missing so much. Trying to balacne the game at this point is pointless because it'd change with new things being added.

Not to mention a lot of people complaining about balance don't even know how to play..

Yea but I am still not even sure who he is bagging on. He makes all these assumptions about someones ability or experience without really having any evidence to make such assumptions. If he is talking to me, and doesn't know I was a gaming journalist for 3 years, or that I am working on a PhD in virtual economics, or doesn't know that I've been in this industry for 10 plus years, he could at least figure it out by my low member number that I didn't just show up here this month.

I meant my post to be a complimentary discussion of Demigod game design so I would appreciate it if the trolls would stop attempting to hijack it into some other direction.

I agree with Sarcerok, and whats bothering me is that its not alowed to vent your toughts without getting pounded by imature teenagers like lifekatana, Get your act straight!

A very good post btw, I feel alot like you on some points, but less on others but thats my way of liking.

For exampel I would like a much better sjill tree than what we got now, many ppl are satisfied, well I aint its nothing special, Id like something more complex, if u think back to diablo 2 skill tree now we are talking, and a twist too it so its not the exact structure. As it is now its nothing more than the same structure as in for example "dota".. Yeah it is!

Quoting Sarcerok,

reply 11

Please note also that I stated clearly in my OP that "I will wait till we see more of the game in beta to really get deep into balancing issues since there is really no point at this stage." Which I think implies that I know this is beta and that commenting on balance is premature other than to point out that the games needs some work in this area still.

I meant my post to be a complimentary discussion of Demigod game design so I would appreciate it if the trolls would stop attempting to hijack it into some other direction.

You say that but also suggest things needing balancing changes...?

why doesnt everyone just stfu about life, or other trolls, or bad posts, or anything and get back to the original post, not what Life said, damn peoples, nice community we are turning into...

I'm with you on how "generic yellow ring: improves stat X by 5%" isn't inspiring. Those kinds of things make me feel like I'm playing a glitzy spreadsheet instead of a game.

Quoting HelgeHolm,

reply 15

I'm with you on how "generic yellow ring: improves stat X by 5%" isn't inspiring. Those kinds of things make me feel like I'm playing a glitzy spreadsheet instead of a game.

At the same time, it's VERY important to know what each item does. You can include a vibrant and rich backstory to every item in the game, but in the end if all it says is "increases X", that doesn't do you any good. Increases X by how much? Does it increase X more than item B does? Numbers may make it like a spreadsheet, but they're the only way to make an informed decision in this case.

Quoting innociv,

reply 13

You say that but also suggest things needing balancing changes...?

As you did with your flag locking thread.

I played both Dungeon Siege and Dungeon Siege 2 from their respective day ones.

Dungeon Siege really was a barren game, in terms of the user experience. A lot of spells, even though you only use 2 at most (one of which is a heal, while the other is whatever does the most damage). Cyclone of fire or Lightning Blast. Dungeon Siege is fun, but it is boring at the same time.

Dungeon Siege 2 gave the user more options. It made the combat more active for the user, which is more engaging, which finally brings the user to a more action packed experience that closes in on the adrenaline pumping action that is generally left to first person shooters. The changes in Dungeon Siege 2 were nothing but good, and the overwhelming amount of praise it received for those changes backs that up.

One of the main improvements of Dungeon Siege 2 was the skill tree, which while it did have your 5% increase "problem" also gave us skills, which are far more fun than click, wait for my 50 swings to kill this guy, repeat. Dungeon Siege 2 had faults, but those faults were there simply because they were the faults made by its predecessor.

PS: you do know that Demigod is inspired by Defense of the Ancients, a Warcraft 3 mod, right? I point it out because, while it is nice to finally have a game based around that idea - and as such, means for many more options that have yet to be explored in that realm - it is not original or groundbreaking. It doesn't really sound like you have played many RTS games at all, actually.

Quoting Legerdemain,

reply 17

Quoting innociv, reply 13
You say that but also suggest things needing balancing changes...?
As you did with your flag locking thread.

flag locking is a broken mechanic, not balancing problem.

Quoting Insanetitan,

reply 16

Quoting HelgeHolm,
reply 15
I'm with you on how "generic yellow ring: improves stat X by 5%" isn't inspiring. Those kinds of things make me feel like I'm playing a glitzy spreadsheet instead of a game.

At the same time, it's VERY important to know what each item does. You can include a vibrant and rich backstory to every item in the game, but in the end if all it says is "increases X", that doesn't do you any good. Increases X by how much? Does it increase X more than item B does? Numbers may make it like a spreadsheet, but they're the only way to make an informed decision in this case.

Don't get me wrong, I like math in my games. If the game doesn't have a lot of math I tend to get bored fast. But in Space Seige more than half the skills are +5% along the whole tree. That's boring at the start and gets worse from there. Now the items in Demigod have their characteristics enumerated but the difference is that, well, they are different! Every item is different, and some are radicaly different. Some raise a variety of stats, some raise one stat by a lot, and some even add abilities the player would not otherwise have (like lifedraining). Again they don't seem balanced yet but I can see from the game design that the devs (in my opinion) are heading in the right direction with this. At this stage of development if the game design was poor, no amount of beta testing would make the game good. With a good game design, and Stardock's reputation for quality, I am expecting another big hit.

Lumify, I don't want to discount what your saying but when you say DS 2 had overwhelming praise you make it sound like this is public praise. What is your source for this? Gamespot gave it a 7.9 and the composite critic score was 8.1. In both cases lower than DS 1. As far as only using 2 spells, the two attack spells you listed would only be available at the very end of the game unless you used cheats so unless you only played the game at high level (which is impossible without cheats/mods, whatever you want to call them) your statement must be false. I presume that you mostly had a multiplayer experience with DS1 and didn't really appreciate the single player campaign. In either case, by intentionally bypassing 90% of the content of a game you really just inflict yourself with boredom, which you cannot blame on the dev team.

Quoting Sarcerok,

reply 21

Quoting Insanetitan,
reply 16

Quoting HelgeHolm,
reply 15
I'm with you on how "generic yellow ring: improves stat X by 5%" isn't inspiring. Those kinds of things make me feel like I'm playing a glitzy spreadsheet instead of a game.

At the same time, it's VERY important to know what each item does. You can include a vibrant and rich backstory to every item in the game, but in the end if all it says is "increases X", that doesn't do you any good. Increases X by how much? Does it increase X more than item B does? Numbers may make it like a spreadsheet, but they're the only way to make an informed decision in this case.

Don't get me wrong, I like math in my games. If the game doesn't have a lot of math I tend to get bored fast. But in Space Seige more than half the skills are +5% along the whole tree. That's boring at the start and gets worse from there. Now the items in Demigod have their characteristics enumerated but the difference is that, well, they are different! Every item is different, and some are radicaly different. Some raise a variety of stats, some raise one stat by a lot, and some even add abilities the player would not otherwise have (like lifedraining). Again they don't seem balanced yet but I can see from the game design that the devs (in my opinion) are heading in the right direction with this. At this stage of development if the game design was poor, no amount of beta testing would make the game good. With a good game design, and Stardock's reputation for quality, I am expecting another big hit.

I want to apologize for my aggresive replies. I was bad and wrong. I got a little upset by your rts-comment-> There are a lot of people that do not understand them and bluntl make statements about balance and gameplay and such. You are not one of them however. I was a jerk.

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The Fun is Back!