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Feedback: Stuff Needs to be Bigger!

By on September 5, 2008 12:03:50 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

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So far playing this game (and it has run fairly well on my machine) the groundwork definitely seems to be in place for a great game.  All the staples of DotA are there, and I'm sure we will see how this game has improved upon that foundation as the Beta progresses.

 

However, my biggest concern even immediately upon starting to play was that everything seems far too small.  One of the biggest strenghts of DotA is that everything is large and unit profiles are easily discernable from one another, which makes micromanagement easier and makes it easier to tell what's going on.

 

I understand that there's a zoom feature, but even when I zoom in all of the soldiers (minotaurs for example) are tiny.  The towers are pretty small in comparison to the heroes, and the heroes aren't that easy to pick out from a pack (besides the Rook).  I'm not sure how to specifically deal with this problem but I think the first step would be to make the "creeps," that is, the minotaur soldiers and what have you, significantly larger, as well as all of the buildings on the map. 

 

I shouldn't have to zoom in to see the details of something close to me and then zoom out to move around to another part of the map.  It's really important that everything be really clear to the player just by looking at what is happening, that way the player can focus on strategy and fighting instead of squinting to see what's going on.

 

Heroes should probably be a fair bit bigger, as well.  The Rook can probably stand to only get a little bit bigger, since he's decent sized already, but looking at somebody like Regulus...well...he's tiny.  At the very least heroes need to have a sort of glow around them or at their feet so they are easily distinguishable from other units. 

 

That's how it is in DotA, and it works really well.  The main reason why everything is so large in DotA is because it's a mod of WC3, a game where everything is designed to be really big and immediately recognizable because it's a game that is centered heavily on single unit micromanagement.  If this game is to be successful, it needs to facilitate that as well.

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September 5, 2008 12:15:53 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I agree, and put this in my own first impressions post. I find on many occasions I'm standing there creeping then suddenly notice that either an allied or enemy Regulus has been standing right next to me and has probably been there for some period. He blends in like a spy

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September 5, 2008 1:13:17 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I agree on the regulus, he is quite unimpressive to look at and blends in too well. However I have never had a problem with the torchbearer or any of the buildings, or the rook obviously. I think these are just normal people who just kick ass more than normal people so you cant suddenly make then 20ft tall. But more glowy affects to make them stand out is a good idea.

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September 5, 2008 1:17:48 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I agree that things feel small even when zoomed in. The solution in my view is just to allow the player to zoom in a bit further.

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September 5, 2008 1:31:17 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Even zooming in closer wouldn't really help. I think it's just a style issue.

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September 5, 2008 1:49:01 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Could we see an option in the future for marking the "god" units so they all stand out better? An arrow or fancy pointer shaded in either white or black floating over the units might alleviate tracking problems posters are mentioning.

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September 5, 2008 2:05:52 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

The unit size is fine this is how it is in Supreme Commander. You need to Remember that this is also a RTS when the general get in the beta and the unit size will work fine for both RPG and RTS. This is not Dota and this become more defined when the Generals enter and rule the arena.

 

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September 5, 2008 2:41:12 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Yea, but the problem is this ISN'T Supreme Commander either.  And if they want a game like this to really be competitive, micro has to be a large factor in the gameplay.

 

Simply put, micro can't play a large role if the units aren't more distinctive. 

 

Colors as well as size are also an issue.  I found that it was sometimes difficult to tell the difference between my own units and the enemy units.

 

If this game starts to lean more towards SupCom RTS style as opposed to DotA style, then gameplay will tend to feel more like you're just sitting back, advancing sometimes, and using some of your abilities other times.  That won't work!

 

The reason the DotA concept works (and this is what the game is based on, and what it will have to improve upon to be successful) is because there's a lot of micro, a lot of skill, involved.  Every small action counts.  I'm not getting that sense with this game so far, and part of that is because the units are so damn tiny it's difficult to micro to at that level of detail.

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September 5, 2008 2:46:29 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

One thing that should definitely change, and would be an easy change, would be to have the glowing circle that is underneath your hero's feet be under all heroes' feet.  That way they stand out a lot more even if they are small.  That won't solve the issue, but it will make it a bit better.

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September 5, 2008 2:52:08 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I agree! It is hard to even tell which creeps are yours.  In DotA they are completely different models (skeletons vs trees), though with demigod they are very similar.  Also Regulus is very hard to click on because of his size and even harder to tell if he is friend of foe just by looking at him.

 

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September 5, 2008 3:08:38 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

A slight aura effect around Regulus would help loads.

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September 5, 2008 3:09:51 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting FunkyKong,
A slight aura effect around Regulus would help loads.

Hell, a slight aura effect around all Demigods would help. They're demigods so they deserve a golden halo.

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September 5, 2008 4:05:28 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I have to also agree. One of the major things I noticed about the game was the fact that creeps hurt my eyes to look at. All the creeps are tiny on the screen (this is when I'm FULLY zoomed in with 1440x900 resolution) and they all look extremely similiar. The color differences don't even feel very bold, which worsens the problem. I think that things should not only be bigger, but the color scheme should stand out more.

When zoomed all the way out it's like trying to read fine print from 3 yards away.

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September 5, 2008 5:01:32 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I overally agree, especially about building sizes. Buildings are definitely too small, you defend a Citadel in which a single Demigod can barely fit, even when you exclude the Rook. Towers are the same size as Demigods, even though they are supposed to be mighty structures. The scale of all buildings is just messed up IMO. I don't mind the different sizes of Demigods though. I think Regulus small size fits well with the character (good at evasion, attacks from afar, and can blend with creep).

Also, the buildings in which you buy objects look more like tiny chests. Besides, they are ugly, their texture is bland. Some polish could definitely be applied to the features on the map (the map itself looks good).

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September 6, 2008 12:10:21 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

It's not even that important to me how cool or impressive any of the buildings, units, or heroes looks - they just have to be easily distinguished from one another.  It shouldn't be legimitately difficult just to target an enemy hero because they blend in with the riff-raff so much.

 

Generally speaking I just feel like the game is a bit too busy and not well enough defined.  Once the armies have been upgraded there are so many different units flying around and so much stuff going on, it's difficult to imagine highly detailed tactical gameplay going on - not when everything blends together so easily.

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September 6, 2008 1:48:31 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

You know, the building sizes could definitely be tweaked a bit. As could the various hero sizes/auras and such.

On the other hand, creeps are small because this is not a tactical game. As we'll most likely see when Generals come out, this game relies on strategy more than tactics. It's not twitchy, so a lot of DoTA mechanics (last-hitting, denying creeps, etc) are rendered null.

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September 6, 2008 1:49:37 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I think the answer to making the demigods stand out is to put a targetable icon over their head, complete with team color and health that doesn' t change size as you zoom and is always on top.

I don't honestly understand how you have problems telling the creeps apart. Sorry, but I"m on a small screen and have no problems seeing the creeps and telling them apart. The color scheme is very distinctive between sides, I can tell the difference between my creeps and the other teams' when they're only a millimeter tall and the model gives no distinction. Anyway, at that zoom level, what belongs to who barely matters. The location of the line is the most important, and whether you're winning is easily told from the color balance of the melee.

However, I would like a more epic scale. I actually wouldn't mind smaller grunts, but make the size differences greater. The arena feels cramped, and the buildings tiny. The rook could probably eat a tower if he wanted to. I like the sizing now, but if it were tweaked the way I want it to, then the hierarchy of size would be immediately apparent. Right now, the scaling is good, but it could be a bit better. Still, I like the feeling the small creeps gives you. You know how in all that ancient art the hero would be about ten times bigger because he's a hero? Well, in this world that applies. The less it matters, the smaller it is. The demigods seem to vary in size by toughness, but scaling by physical might is a very good way to do things.

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September 6, 2008 2:09:15 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

I agree with xthetenth on this. Demigod is a fantastic game (in the sense of "fantasy"), and should have a fantastic scale (in the same sense, epic).

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September 6, 2008 3:53:09 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

probbaly we could use sometinh like this:

'press (put any key here) to higlight demigod, friendlies will be coulured blue, enemies will be red'

is that good?

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September 6, 2008 4:59:15 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Yeah, scale really matters when you want to make a game with badass heroes. How do you make assaulting a stronghold something epic when it's the same size as a character???

If the Lord of the Ring, return of the king, had a tiny Citadel, it wouldn't have been epic at all.

They kept the sizes of Warcraft 3 as a model, but this game is 8 years old now, computers can handle more polygons...

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September 6, 2008 12:28:06 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

computers can handle more polygons

and the zoom level lets the player handle more dramatic scale differences. It would work, and I think it'd make the game much more atmospheric.

If the Lord of the Ring, return of the king, had a tiny Citadel, it wouldn't have been epic at all.

And can you imagine how lame the battle of helms deep would've been if the wall was only 200 feet wide?

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September 6, 2008 11:23:59 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

The fact is if the developers want to make this a competitive game they have to put aside desires to make the game feel super "epic" and "exciting" by making the creeps small, varied, and highly detailed and thus giving you the sense of there being massive armies colliding.

 

If a game is to be truly competitive, then it has to have function and design over aesthetics.  Making this game "less twitch oriented," thus moving it away from DotA, is not going to make it more competitive, because twitch requires skill that you can only require through practice, and in order for a game to be competitive it has to incorporate elements that require practicable skills.

 

A game that you can be good at just by knowing the correct strategies to pull of at certain times is not a competitive one.  A game with huge, diverse, busy-looking armies clashing and braining each other in a rapid fashion is not a competitive one, either. 

 

Reducing the number of things on screen fighting on screen at a time and increasing the size of the units and buildings will force players to do more with less and focus on hero to hero fighting instead of just babysitting battles.  Hero to hero fighting is more difficult and requires more skill than just babysitting battles and winning the game by riding the "flow" of the war into your opponent's base.

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September 7, 2008 12:59:39 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Reducing the number of things on screen fighting on screen at a time and increasing the size of the units and buildings will force players to do more with less and focus on hero to hero fighting instead of just babysitting battles. Hero to hero fighting is more difficult and requires more skill than just babysitting battles and winning the game by riding the "flow" of the war into your opponent's base.

That's what making the creeps dramatically smaller emphasizes. It gives you a better chance to see the demigods so you can attack them quickly. Minotaurs only matter in groups, so they only catch the eye in groups. Scale differences make the game much more visually ergonomic, and there's a reason we left behind giant units when we invented strategic zoom and monitors bigger than 800x600. It's much easier to play if the visual size reflects the importance, a la egyptian heroic art. The problem with bigger units is it clogs the screen with uniportant info. I don't need to zoom in to see the filligree details on a minotaur's armor to know what it is and what it's role is.

A game that you can be good at just by knowing the correct strategies to pull of at certain times is not a competitive one.

Sorry to be a sarcastic dick, but this lets out most of the competitive starcraft I've seen. Half the damn game is based off choice between about five build orders and damned if that isn't popular competitively. Sure, there's a bit of creativity, but a lot of that game is decided by scouting and build orders. If you're arguing what I think you're arguing, then the real 'skill' in that game is to be able to queue up five marines in five barracks even though it isn't handled properly automatically. By your argument, managing your playing time so you can make all the key orders and keep production high isn't the biggest skill, but a few fancy mouse tricks are because they can be 'practiced'.

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September 7, 2008 2:21:05 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Xthetenth, its just the diffrence between Tactic + Strategy. Dota is more the first, while Demigod is the latter. Or at least its my PoV from what we can see until now.

 

Possibly, i play dota by myself. I can assume what your thoughts / feelings are about Demigod. I myself brainstormed alot about balancing stuff and "what if.."-Things. Just give the game some time, finding its way. Alot can change during a Beta - this isn't the first test i'm doing and often you can see huge and awesome changes of games, it's amazing.

One thing: It will be totally diffrent then Dota. Just the Gerne and the Idea will be the same.

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September 7, 2008 2:39:14 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Xthetenth, its just the diffrence between Tactic + Strategy. Dota is more the first, while Demigod is the latter. Or at least its my PoV from what we can see until now.

Yeah, fair enough. I tend to like the strategy end of things. Sorry if I was letting it cloud my judgement on the sarcastic dick part (I'm really sorry about that, I just had a backlog of vitriol), but I don't think that changes my point about scale for this game. I like the way the scale fits the unit strength.

I myself brainstormed alot about balancing stuff and "what if.."-Things. Just give the game some time, finding its way. Alot can change during a Beta - this isn't the first test i'm doing and often you can see huge and awesome changes of games, it's amazing.

I remember sins beta, it was a trip. The first beta didn't even have combat frigates or supply cap, every ship just lowered your income. It's interesting how they went back to that for the final. I don't think the basic mechanics are going to change, though, so I feel pretty safe arguing scale based on that.

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September 7, 2008 3:05:38 AM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting xthetenth,
It's much easier to play if the visual size reflects the importance, a la egyptian heroic art. 

Dude, you just officially became one of my favourite people on the Stardock fora. Any reference tying together Egyptian heroic art and asthetic game design fills me with such bubbling glee I can hardly contain myself. Egyptian, Aztec, and Byzantine art were all about portraying epic figures surrounded by less important characters with appropriate iconography, not necessarily with any reduction in detail but certainly the depiction conveyed the relative importance with a glance. That is one of the things I think Demigod can and already has, to some degree, adopt and run with.

(When/if there's an Aztec-inspired Demigod announced, I fear I'll be pushed by my innate desires to focus on mastering it, even if it's an Assassin. Such is my vulnerability.)

Quoting xthetenth,
I don't need to zoom in to see the filligree details on a minotaur's armor to know what it is and what it's role is.

Though I'd dearly like the option to, which just reinforces my ongoing desire for a replay system with free-roaming camera available for studying games after-the-fact. (The fact Demigod'll make some stunning machinima is purely secondary. Really.)

Quoting xthetenth,
Half the damn game is based off choice between about five build orders and damned if that isn't popular competitively. Sure, there's a bit of creativity, but a lot of that game is decided by scouting and build orders. If you're arguing what I think you're arguing, then the real 'skill' in that game is to be able to queue up five marines in five barracks even though it isn't handled properly automatically. By your argument, managing your playing time so you can make all the key orders and keep production high isn't the biggest skill, but a few fancy mouse tricks are because they can be 'practiced'.

And here we see the divide between what I think of the latest-born of the "Real-Time Tactics" games and the old-guard who are actually familliar what "Real-Time Strategy" games are largely about. Starcraft is, bless its little heart, a RTT game with a relatively limited but calculable Strategic side. Observe the replays of SC games and you'll see, as you've noted, a fairly tight spread of strategic choices at any given point with a heavy focus on tactical execution of the products of those build orders. It's absolutely necessary that you be aware of what strategies are viable at your production levels and how to manage that production, but the game is really fought in the micromanagement of tactical operations between forces. (If I hear one more time how to be competitive in SC you have to have 350 click-ops a minute or better, I may go absolutely bugnuts. That my girlfriend actually is a competitive-class SC player doesn't help assauge my ego when it comes to such matters.) Compare to Supreme Commander which, despite some flaws, is an RTS with Tactical elements which are amenable to some micromanagement but is, in a wider sense, about managing the strategic considerations of build time versus builders available versus the need for attention time given over to directing strategic operations of motion and assault. The level of micromanagement necessary to succeed in SupCom is considerably less than in SC, and replays generally show that. Out at the far end of that spectrum is the rare game like Majesty, which by giving you no direct control over the actual combat elements but, instead, putting you in the position of only managing resources and influences, made it an almost entirely Strategic-level game.

(And, yes, I know I've just pointed out SC is considerably more tactical than you meant to say, but bear with me a bit.)

Now let us turn our attention to DotA. Despite the implications that others might want to convey, just because I'm not now nor have I ever been a DotA player doesn't mean I've never played it. Part of the reason that I never cared for it after my initial exposure and thus never transitioned from "having played it" to "being a player" is that it's almost entirely tactical in decision-making and player-effect. Strategic consideration is generally only in what lanes you want to push and coordinating tactical operations with other players. The rest of it is focused, to an even greater extent than SC, on immediate tactical-decisions, going so far as to consider who gets the last hit on the creeps, etc. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the DotA hardcore rival the SC hardcore for actions-per-minute, possibly even exceeding them. 

That may be great fun for the DotA hardcore, but I'm thinking it's not the best design for a competing game in the same space. It's surely not the best design plan for a large portion of the RTS community who really do care about the strategic options. Those players, including myself, tend to get uppity when we're told our prefered scope of play isn't strategic or competitive, where deciding what to commit to battle when and managing the resources to do so, isn't competitive. Hell, 80+ years of wargame design and development in general, pre-dating the first implimentation in computerized form, laughs right in the ignorant face of such a contention. I don't think there's a Logistian in the military who's not smirking at that kind of armchairing.

Incidently, by the same argument, Poker isn't a compeditive game. Dismissing that contention is left as an exercise for the reader.

So, in closing, just let me say:

  • Demigod is not DotA.
I was feeling naked without a bullet-point.

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